Western Bulldogs Limbo Club

[Doggy Dan]

Don't actually think either are 2 blame just 2 blokes that didn't like the way each operated

I would say 1 bloke and 1 sooky sheila!

 

[immortalmike]

Wait a minute, why was he "mentally gone and broken"? Is he the fragile type or was it the environment, or (I hesitate to mention his name) was it the coach? Or a bit of all three.

Surely we can learn a lesson from this, especially if it wasn't just the coach (now ex-coach) giving him a hard time.

From what I've heard Liam like most millennials responds best to positive reinforcement and struggled mentally with negative reinforcement. So to extrapolate the issue was a mixture of all three I.e he's a bit fragile, and the environment and coach didn't work for him.

That's why I look on with interest at his development under Mick at Carlton. I think it may be a case of out of the frying pan.

 

[timtamWB]

From what I've heard Liam like most millennials responds best to positive reinforcement and struggled mentally with negative reinforcement.

I agree though, and honestly I think he's mentally weak (and I can unfortunately relate). He's just not in the type of environment where he's going to flourish, especially at Carlton. But the thing is, he has the talent, and the AFL environment just won't work for him.

 

[BRWB]

We were a bit further away than that I would have thought, and you left out the key word "quality" in front of KPP. And McDougall, Wight, Street, Skipper, Everitt added precisely what? Mofra and BRWB I know you want more talls to our list but there is no point adding s**t ones (Not that you're advocating that). We have added Boyd, Hamling and Cordy this year, I don't completely understand why you guys are so focused on this tall thing. Looking at the make up of our list we are probably better off trading in quality talls rather than drafting marginal late draft prospects anyway.

Mate I can't speak for Mofra. Concerns as follows:

1 - We again recruited other clubs' delistees (Kelly and Hamling). This is a proven low percentage way of getting good AFL players (others recruited by Simon are Markovic and Austin)
2 - Cordy is not KPD size but may grow and some say he is tall enough, I don't
3 - Boyd was great but realistically our hand was forced by Griffen (and Boyd's salary may create salary imbalance in our list)
4 - We have recruited a number of smaller players on top of our existing small players (Hrovat, Honey, JJ, etc) of a similar age
5 - In the last three drafts we have not drafted anyone over 192cm. The argument is either we don't need them or they weren't there. However viritually every draft has tall players picked later that are end up competent or better AFL players. And its seems we relying on two players (Talia and Fletch) when they couldn't beat Austin into last season's team. The other KPD is Roughhead who has questions over his fitness and speed
6 - By clumping our drafting on smaller players recently we are creating a list imbalance where we have a glut of smaller sized players of a similar age, while at the same time we are not drafting tall, meaning we aren't getting an spread of size and talent and age on our list. I think sound list management should do this, we haven't

The alternative is that as Mattdougie has hinted and many suspect, we have a KP targeted or even locked away in the next trade or FA period, and why should we worry about it. However the rider is that, as we saw with Boyd, the cost in trading and salary in getting good KP players is prohibitive and not really sustainable.

Of course there are arguments against everything I've said and we have really done it all to death a bit. Hope that sums up my view in a relatively succinct manner.

 

[immortalmike]

I agree though, and honestly I think he's mentally weak (and I can unfortunately relate). He's just not in the type of environment where he's going to flourish, especially at Carlton. But the thing is, he has the talent, and the AFL environment just won't work for him.

Thought either you or Igloo would get that.
I think it's a cultural thing. It's also why I'm a little worried about Rocket at GC.

 

[Dogs Rule]

Mate I can't speak for Mofra. Concerns as follows:

1 - We again recruited other clubs' delistees (Kelly and Hamling). This is a proven low percentage way of getting good AFL players (others recruited by Simon are Markovic and Austin)
2 - Cordy is not KPD size but may grow and some say he is tall enough, I don't
3 - Boyd was great but realistically our hand was forced by Griffen
4 - We have recruited a number of smaller players on top of our existing small players (Hrovat, Honey, JJ, etc) of a similar age
5 - In the last three drafts we have not drafted anyone over 192cm. The argument is either we don't need them or they weren't there. However viritually every draft has tall players picked later that are end up competent or better AFL players. And its seems we relying on two players (Talia and Fletch) when they couldn't beat Austin into last season's team. The other KPD is Roughhead who has questions over his fitness and speed
6 - By clumping our drafting on smaller players recently we are creating a list imbalance where we have a glut of smaller sized players of a similar age, while at the same time we are not drafting tall, meaning we aren't getting an spread of size and talent and age on our list. I think sound list management should do this, we haven't

The alternative is that as Mattdougie has hinted and many suspect, we have a KP targeted or even locked away in the next trade or FA period, and why should we worry about it.

Of course there are arguments against everything I've said and we have really done it all to death a bit. Hope that sums up my view in a relatively succinct manner.

Here's hoping.

 

[immortalmike]

I think people are going a little too hard despite only seeing a third of the picture.
Hands up who knew we were into Boyd all year.

 

[BRWB]

I think people are going a little too hard despite only seeing a third of the picture.
Hands up who knew we were into Boyd all year.

Mate you might be right. I hoped and thought we should be into Boyd and Patton. I hope you are right. But we can't afford to pay Boyd like rates again, it just creates another list imbalance in the form of salary and opens other players up to be targeted.

 

[Mofra]

1 - We again recruited other clubs' delistees (Kelly and Hamling). This is a proven low percentage way of getting good AFL players (others recruited by Simon are Markovic and Austin)

The other worry with Hamling is that Geelong let him go but went for a KPD (Delaney) in the rookie draft.
That doesn't fill me with a huge amount of confidence.

 

[BRWB]

The other worry with Hamling is that Geelong let him go but went for a KPD (Delaney) in the rookie draft.
That doesn't fill me with a huge amount of confidence.

I really hope Hamling works out. The odds aren't great though.

 

[Dogs Rule]

If we wanted a ruckman we could have taken McKernan before the Bombers, so we're obviously not that desperate for one.

 

[TempleKelvington]

The other worry with Hamling is that Geelong let him go but went for a KPD (Delaney) in the rookie draft.
That doesn't fill me with a huge amount of confidence.

Well....that contradicts. If you are wondering why we picked up a Geelong discard, why wouldn't you worry why Geelong picked up a N0rf discard? Clearly they see something in Delaney that N0rf didn't. We see something in Hamling that the Cats don't. I have no idea if Hamling is any good, but I will start out by holding fire until he's been with us more than 10 minutes.

 

[BRWB]

Well....that contradicts. If you are wondering why we picked up a Geelong discard, why wouldn't you worry why Geelong picked up a N0rf discard? Clearly they see something in Delaney that N0rf didn't. We see something in Hamling that the Cats don't. I have no idea if Hamling is any good, but I will start out by holding fire until he's been with us more than 10 minutes.

Mate happy to support Hamling and wish him all the best. But in the overall context of list management, I don't think its bagging him out to point out that his particular pathway onto our list has well....a very low percentage chance of success

 

[immortalmike]

Mate you might be right. I hoped and thought we should be into Boyd and Patton. I hope you are right. But we can't afford to pay Boyd like rates again, it just creates another list imbalance in the form of salary and opens other players up to be targeted.

We can afford it but probably shouldn't. In saying that it may be another Crameri like contract.

The other worry with Hamling is that Geelong let him go but went for a KPD (Delaney) in the rookie draft.
That doesn't fill me with a huge amount of confidence.

Apparently they wanted to rookie Hamling but we offered the better deal (a spot on the senior list). So it's not as bad as you're (unintentionally) making it sound.

 

[scooter600x]

Well....that contradicts. If you are wondering why we picked up a Geelong discard, why wouldn't you worry why Geelong picked up a N0rf discard? Clearly they see something in Delaney that N0rf didn't. We see something in Hamling that the Cats don't. I have no idea if Hamling is any good, but I will start out by holding fire until he's been with us more than 10 minutes.

North did intend to re-draft Delany but the Cats jumped in

The only conclusion you can draw is Geelong thought Delany was a better prospect than Hamling

 

[BRWB]

We can afford it but probably shouldn't. In saying that it may be another Crameri like contract.

I doubt we'll get away with a Crameri like contract for a KP, I could tolerate a Frawley like contract (hopefully for a KP with better skills). But the numbers being talked about say for Jake Carlisle are massive.

 

[TempleKelvington]

I really hope Hamling works out. The odds aren't great though.

I don't understand. You wanted them to draft KP defenders, they did. Sure argue if they are or aren't KP size, if that matters a few centimeters here or there so what, but the club and others say they are capable at playing KP. We did not have access to Goddard, Lever or Durdin.

How do you know at this stage if Kelly, Cordy and Hamling will be better or worse than an 18 year old for example who only barely got drafted (McDonald).

They drafted some KP types, which we needed. Could we have got another maybe. But they addressed it as you and others wanted them too.

But give it some time before we write these kids off. They have collectively played 0 games. Give them some time, at least wait till they play a game.

 

[TempleKelvington]

Mate happy to support Hamling and wish him all the best. But in the overall context of list management, I don't think its bagging him out to point out that his particular pathway onto our list has well....a very low percentage of success

So what is the percentage of a 18 year old KP player picked up at 46.

 

[Testekill]

If we wanted a ruckman we could have taken McKernan before the Bombers, so we're obviously not that desperate for one.

Someone from the club said earlier today that we're not going to take a ruckman just for the sake of him being tall. I would bet that we looked at all options and found them lacking. I mean, people that are saying that we should have recruited McKernan are going to be disappointed because he's ******* horrible.

 

[TempleKelvington]

North did intend to re-draft Delany but the Cats jumped in

The only conclusion you can draw is Geelong thought Delany was a better prospect than Hamling

N0rf rated him so much they ran the risk of him getting picked up by someone else. Clearly Cats rated him, but does it not follow there must be doubts on him if he's been rejected by another club.....just following the logic.

 

[BRWB]

I don't understand. You wanted them to draft KP defenders, they did. Sure argue if they are or aren't KP size, if that matters a few centimeters here or there so what, but the club and others say they are capable at playing KP. We did not have access to Goddard, Lever or Durdin.

How do you know at this stage if Kelly, Cordy and Hamling will be better or worse than an 18 year old for example who only barely got drafted (McDonald).

They drafted some KP types, which we needed. Could we have got another maybe. But they addressed it as you and others wanted them too.

But give it some time before we write these kids off. They have collectively played 0 games. Give them some time, at least wait till they play a game.

Again don't have a particular problem with these guys. Cordy aside, Kelly and Hamling are delistees, just based on probabilities, we are better off drafting in our own talent than getting other club's delistees, have a look at Guido and Lachy's posts earlier on, and it'll explain.

 

[Doggy Dan]

The only conclusion you can draw is Geelong thought Delany was a better prospect than Hamling

Or that they hadn't reached their minimum number mandate of de-listing?

 

[stefoid]

Mate I can't speak for Mofra. Concerns as follows:

1 - We again recruited other clubs' delistees (Kelly and Hamling). This is a proven low percentage way of getting good AFL players (others recruited by Simon are Markovic and Austin)
2 - Cordy is not KPD size but may grow and some say he is tall enough, I don't
3 - Boyd was great but realistically our hand was forced by Griffen (and Boyd's salary may create salary imbalance in our list)
4 - We have recruited a number of smaller players on top of our existing small players (Hrovat, Honey, JJ, etc) of a similar age
5 - In the last three drafts we have not drafted anyone over 192cm. The argument is either we don't need them or they weren't there. However viritually every draft has tall players picked later that are end up competent or better AFL players. And its seems we relying on two players (Talia and Fletch) when they couldn't beat Austin into last season's team. The other KPD is Roughhead who has questions over his fitness and speed
6 - By clumping our drafting on smaller players recently we are creating a list imbalance where we have a glut of smaller sized players of a similar age, while at the same time we are not drafting tall, meaning we aren't getting an spread of size and talent and age on our list. I think sound list management should do this, we haven't

The alternative is that as Mattdougie has hinted and many suspect, we have a KP targeted or even locked away in the next trade or FA period, and why should we worry about it. However the rider is that, as we saw with Boyd, the cost in trading and salary in getting good KP players is prohibitive and not really sustainable.

Of course there are arguments against everything I've said and we have really done it all to death a bit. Hope that sums up my view in a relatively succinct manner.

yeah, but we are pretty ******* set for mids and flankers of every conceivable size and shape and right now, plus we sport a pretty impressive set of bookends.

Jmac will finish the job next year I reckon.

 

[Mofra]

So what is the percentage of a 18 year old KP player picked up at 46.

Low - hence the rationale that if you want to develop AFL standard player in one position, you need depth in that area

 

[TempleKelvington]

Again don't have a particular problem with these guys. Cordy aside, Kelly and Hamling are delistees, just based on probabilities, we are better off drafting in our own talent than getting other club's delistees, have a look at Guido and Lachy's posts earlier on, and it'll explain.

Well....I'm not so sure. Both have cost us very little, it's not like we traded for them or gave up good picks. Both have 3 years of development in them and we know how KP players can take longer. These guys are down the path a bit and in Kelly's case Bevo would know him well, so I don't mind that insight pre draft.

I'm not sure they will make it, but then I would be feeling the same about an 18 year 1st year KP player picked up outside the first round. I don't care how we draft them, all I care is that they succeed. So far they are no better or worse than anyone else we could have picked.