F-35 Joint Strike Fighter - Abbott agrees to buy more, more, more.

[RUNVS]

I watched a 4 corners documentary on this lemon. The Howard government never even considered any of the other options. They took the US military completely on their word. They did no analysis of the F-35 before buying it.

 

[little graham]

I watched a 4 corners documentary on this lemon. The Howard government never even considered any of the other options. They took the US military completely on their word. They did no analysis of the F-35 before buying it.

Same as the subs. By the time they leave there base in Perth to operate around the north of the country, they will be out of fuel. They also will have no specific quarters for SF detachments. They are subs designed to patrol around japan against Chinese threats.

 

[telsor]

http://rt.com/uk/214931-raf-stealth-jet-overheating/

What a farce..

Not good, but from reading a couple of sources, it doesn't seem to be a massive problem. The plane was flying tests through the heat of Arizona summer without issues.

Problem is that the fuel needs to start (relatively) cool, but when it gets going the cooling system (which actually uses the fuel as a heat sink) cuts in, so there doesn't seem to be much danger of shutting down mid flight.

 

[RUNVS]

Not good, but from reading a couple of sources, it doesn't seem to be a massive problem. The plane was flying tests through the heat of Arizona summer without issues.

Problem is that the fuel needs to start (relatively) cool, but when it gets going the cooling system (which actually uses the fuel as a heat sink) cuts in, so there doesn't seem to be much danger of shutting down mid flight.

It is just one of a million problems though. They still are unable to fly the plane anywhere near close to its theoretical limit due to all the technical problems. When they do start trying to fly the plane closer to what it can do on paper then they will undoubtably find more problems with it.

 

[little graham]

Not good, but from reading a couple of sources, it doesn't seem to be a massive problem. The plane was flying tests through the heat of Arizona summer without issues.

Problem is that the fuel needs to start (relatively) cool, but when it gets going the cooling system (which actually uses the fuel as a heat sink) cuts in, so there doesn't seem to be much danger of shutting down mid flight.

Sweet, when you're in peacetime. But war test everything. These will fail massively.

 

[medusala]

We are committed to US Marines being stationed on our soil in the short term. Any crackpot theory that the US might not help an ally like Australia in an emergency is pure fantasy.

IIRC defence of Australia wasn't exactly a priority for the US in WWII. They were rather indifferent re the situation re East Timor. And let's not forget the shameful disregard by Obama for the USA's best ally re the Falklands (Maldives), even Reagan was troublesome under a certain person gave him an earful.

I would think hope but not rely would be the sensible planning option.

 

[little graham]

They were rather indifferent re the situation re East Timor. .

They were rather consistent would be a better description!

If these guys are correct.

http://www.sott.net/article/273517-...lled-20-30-million-people-since-World-War-Two

In 1965, in Indonesia, a coup replaced General Sukarno with General Suharto as leader. The U.S. played a role in that change of government. Robert Martens,a former officer in the U.S. embassy in Indonesia, described how U.S. diplomats and CIA officers provided up to 5,000 names to Indonesian Army death squads in 1965 and checked them off as they were killed or captured.

Martens admitted that "I probably have a lot of blood on my hands, but that's not all bad. There's a time when you have to strike hard at a decisive moment." (1,2,3) Estimates of the number of deaths range from 500,000 to 3 million. (4,5,6)
From 1993 to 1997 the U.S. provided Jakarta with almost $400 million in economic aid and sold tens of million of dollars of weaponry to that nation. U.S. Green Berets provided training for the Indonesia's elite force which was responsible for many of atrocities in East Timor.

http://www.sott.net/article/273517-...lled-20-30-million-people-since-World-War-Two

In December 1975, Indonesia invaded East Timor. This incursion was launched the day after U.S. President Gerald Ford and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger had left Indonesia where they had given President Suharto permission to use American arms, which under U.S. law, could not be used for aggression.

Daniel Moynihan, U.S. ambassador to the UN. said that the U.S. wanted "things to turn out as they did." (1,2) The result was an estimated 200,000 dead out of a population of 700,000. (1,2)

Notice the date, December 1975, 1 month after the CIA removed Whitlam.

Sixteen years later, on November 12, 1991, two hundred and seventeen East Timorese protesters in Dili, many of them children, marching from a memorial service, were gunned down by Indonesian Kopassus shock troops who were headed by U.S.- trained commanders Prabowo Subianto (son in law of General Suharto) and Kiki Syahnakri. Trucks were seen dumping bodies into the sea. (5)

 

[RUNVS]

Truthfully I would never trust the USA to defend Australia. They have always acted out of self interest rather than doing what is considered right. If for some reason Australia was attacked and it was 51% in the USA's best interest not to get involved you can bet they would leave us high and dry.

As a result of this I don't feel any particular obligation to buy American military equipment when we could get better/cheaper equipment from other sources.

 

[illavitar]

If the yanks have silent flying nuclear black triangles with magneto gravnetic torus rings and s**t, then why are we spending billions on a forsaken project that's been failed over the last 40yrs? I'm totally serious about the black triangles too lol, we are paying tens of billions for archaic s**t.

NBN, health, education all better causes than these planes.

 

[telsor]

IIRC defence of Australia wasn't exactly a priority for the US in WWII. They were rather indifferent re the situation re East Timor. And let's not forget the shameful disregard by Obama for the USA's best ally re the Falklands (Maldives), even Reagan was troublesome under a certain person gave him an earful.

I would think hope but not rely would be the sensible planning option.

Assuming you mean the more recent efforts there (not WW2).

The US gave considerable, if indirect, assistance both to us and the cause.
3 things off the top of my head...

President made some very pointed comments about respecting the democratic choice of the Timorese.
US Navy 'just happened' to have several more ships than usual in the area for the duration.
When the Australian military was busting a gut transferring troops and equipment from Darwin to Timor, the US Air force 'just happened' to suddenly decide to redeploy a bunch of C5's to Australia and run a training exercise shuttling troops and equipment from Townsville to Darwin.

Put it all together and the Indonesians were given a fairly clear picture that if the shooting started, we wouldn't be alone.

 

[medusala]

Assuming you mean the more recent efforts there (not WW2).

Yes. Given Australian assistance over the years it was hardly a huge effort. Depending on who you believe Australia's military was rather stretched and it could have got a bit messy.

I would hardly classify them on the same level as the French but I wouldn't bet the house on them turning up when required.

One of the great quotes.

"Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."

 

[telsor]

Truthfully I would never trust the USA to defend Australia. They have always acted out of self interest rather than doing what is considered right. If for some reason Australia was attacked and it was 51% in the USA's best interest not to get involved you can bet they would leave us high and dry.

As a result of this I don't feel any particular obligation to buy American military equipment when we could get better/cheaper equipment from other sources.

Like the US is the only source we use?

The Army uses Belgian rifles, navy's ships are swedish (subs) spanish (canberra class), German (ANZAC frigates), Spanish (The New Hobart Class, albeit with US weapons systems).

Air force also has a number of planes from various countries (british and swiss trainers for example).

 

[telsor]

Yes. Given Australian assistance over the years it was hardly a huge effort. Depending on who you believe Australia's military was rather stretched and it could have got a bit messy.

We didn't want them to do more...more would have been a superpower doing stuff, and that gets a lot more people riled up. So the helped as required and were ready to do more if needed.

I would hardly classify them on the same level as the French but I wouldn't bet the house on them turning up when required.

I think you'd be surprised. Not helping us would be political suicide over there.

That said, for anyone to attack us would probably involve a wider war going on, so they may not have a lot spare at our time of need (not unlike WW2).

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Like the US is the only source we use?

The Army uses Belgian rifles, navy's ships are swedish (subs) spanish (canberra class), German (ANZAC frigates), Spanish (The New Hobart Class, albeit with US weapons systems).

Air force also has a number of planes from various countries (british and swiss trainers for example).

wait are we getting new swedish subs or are you talking about the old shitty diesel ones?
because the current crop of swedish subs are amazballs, best non nuclear subs in the world and supposedly quieter than most of the yank subs (but with less range)

 

[Power Raid]

wait are we getting new swedish subs or are you talking about the old shitty diesel ones?
because the current crop of swedish subs are amazballs, best non nuclear subs in the world and supposedly quieter than most of the yank subs (but with less range)

the now 20 year old subs?

or the cancelled new designs (designed 20 years ago?)?

 

[telsor]

wait are we getting new swedish subs or are you talking about the old shitty diesel ones?
because the current crop of swedish subs are amazballs, best non nuclear subs in the world and supposedly quieter than most of the yank subs (but with less range)

The current ones. (which were modified swedish designs)

The future ones will either be Japanese, Swedish or French designs (the latter 2 modified extensively)...But again, Not US.

 

[telsor]

the now 20 year old subs?

or the cancelled new designs (designed 20 years ago?)?

What cancelled 'new' designs? designed by who?

 

[Sydney Bloods]

the now 20 year old subs?

or the cancelled new designs (designed 20 years ago?)?

don't knock the gotland class subs they routinely outperform many nato countries including the us, they basically rake in the awards.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

The current ones. (which were modified swedish designs)

The future ones will either be Japanese, Swedish or French designs (the latter 2 modified extensively)...But again, Not US.

so the shitty ones

 

[Power Raid]

don't knock the gotland class subs they routinely outperform many nato countries including the us, they basically rake in the awards.

I guess I'm just not that excited by conventional subs. there is a reason why why can't get the crew to man them.

that said I am sure they have come along way in the last 20 years

 

[Power Raid]

What cancelled 'new' designs? designed by who?

the "new" A26 was deigned circa 1990 - 1994 but the swedes decided not to go ahead with them. the first of the A26 was to be commissioned circa 2000

 

[scon]

don't knock the gotland class subs they routinely outperform many nato countries including the us, they basically rake in the awards.

Pound for pound!!!!!!
Sweden Has A Sub That's So Deadly The US Navy Hired It ...

 

[telsor]

Pound for pound!!!!!!
Sweden Has A Sub That's So Deadly The US Navy Hired It ...

Our subs did some serious damage to the US fleet in wargames...The US has a weakness against diesel subs (which is why they hired the swedish boat...to (re)learn how to counter them).

The problem with them is that they're tiny...~1600 tonnes. (A26 isn't much bigger at 1900).

To get the fuel capacity/range we'd need, 4000 would be bare minimum, 5000 more likely (The A26 variant proposed for us is 4000 tonnes), but clearly that would be a massive change. They'd also probably need significant changes in the electronics....So basically, we'd have the same situation we had with the Collins class boats...A massively upsized Swedish boat with a separately sourced fire control system.

 

[scon]

Maybe I should have said dollar per kilo.

 

[Power Raid]

Our subs did some serious damage to the US fleet in wargames...The US has a weakness against diesel subs (which is why they hired the swedish boat...to (re)learn how to counter them).

The problem with them is that they're tiny...~1600 tonnes. (A26 isn't much bigger at 1900).

To get the fuel capacity/range we'd need, 4000 would be bare minimum, 5000 more likely (The A26 variant proposed for us is 4000 tonnes), but clearly that would be a massive change. They'd also probably need significant changes in the electronics....So basically, we'd have the same situation we had with the Collins class boats...A massively upsized Swedish boat with a separately sourced fire control system.

or build secret petrol stations out at sea