F-35 Joint Strike Fighter - Abbott agrees to buy more, more, more.

[RUNVS]

Considering the stationing of US Marines in the NT, does anyone truly believe that in the foreseeable future we could be without topline US air support? Any scenario that involves Australia being in combat in SE Asia would surely involve some kind of "build up" or show of force, as a deterrent effect. That would likely involve US F22s arriving on Australian soil within a few days of any emergency. That's part of the beauty of having powerful allies stationed on your soil.

and it isn't like we requested them to be there. By the sounds of it it was the American government that were very keen to have more American troops in Australia so in theory this should just be an upside to us letting the Americans station more troops here.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

More and more the f35 marketing material, which stormee has kindly cut pasted, is starting to resemble the kind used by videogame studios.

Promise the world, then umpteen cost overuns, development issues, and performance revisions later, release a partly broken, underperforming pos, that is little better than a beta version of the planned product. But they promise they will patch it to meet expectations, if only you will wait, indefinitely.

bethesda fan much?

 

[Jakko]

and it isn't like we requested them to be there. By the sounds of it it was the American government that were very keen to have more American troops in Australia so in theory this should just be an upside to us letting the Americans station more troops here.

Requested or not, its irrelevant to the issue I raised.

We are committed to US Marines being stationed on our soil in the short term. Any crackpot theory that the US might not help an ally like Australia in an emergency is pure fantasy. To then suggest that the US would NOT supply topline air support to several thousands of US marines stationed at a friendly country is borderline insane.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Requested or not, its irrelevant to the issue I raised.

We are committed to US Marines being stationed on our soil in the short term. Any crackpot theory that the US might not help an ally like Australia in an emergency is pure fantasy. To then suggest that the US would NOT supply topline air support to several thousands of US marines stationed at a friendly country is borderline insane.

America is fickle beast, they support us for two reasons.

A) We are part of the commonwealth so it strengthens American influence in commonwealth political sphere.

B) American radar installations and military access.

That's it, in fact very one knows the yanks are fickle at best when it comes to support unless the American people are fully behind it.

Which is why we "invited" the Americans to station troops in the north and provides most of their spy gear up north even though it is possibly the most at risk of getting targetted first in any attack because wether anyone wants to admit it or not any attack on Australia will come from the Indonesian islands. Even china would set up there to launch an invasion rather then skirt around them.

The whole reason the yanks are stationed up north is because it means that any attack likely leads to the American troops and spy installations being hit wether the enemy means to hit them or not.

We don't want the us bickering in there congress for 3 months on what level of support they give us.

So yes the yanks would lend air support. But only because our pollies were smart enough to ensure that the US assets were put in a location that would cause the deaths of us personal if we get attacked directly drawing the us into the war.

Nothing to do with helping an ally, if they had advanced warning I've no doubt they would turn tail and run.

You think that treaty is actually worth anything? Hell no, which is why the bulk of US here are in a location likely to be the first hit while the bulk of ours is located in NSW VIC and Tasmania. Because the closest possible threat to them is new zealand, a nation we could fight off with dole payments and worst case scenario a fleet of manly ferries.

 

[Jakko]

I think that the level of military co-operation, shared interests (intelligence and assets as you mentioned) and strategic location go beyond a sheer treaty signature, yes. Its what real Allies do.

 

[Juddism]

2014? That's when we committed to the bulk of the purchase...

You can talk about the importance of tech et al, but if you have a plane that outclasses another plane, the still unusable tech doesn't mean much.

What does Indonesia have?

small block of F-16's and some SU27's & 30's. They have a very small combat unit of not more than 30 a/c.

 

[Juddism]

I was just wondering who this enemy is that has gen 5 fighters, AWACS rader support and wants to go to war with us.

there isn't one...it's about keeping American's in jobs in an industry too big to fail.

all this grand talk about what the F-35 can do is useless if they cannot get the helmet correct.

I have a friend in the USN who is stationed in Japan and he told me that the Australian Defence Force is actively recruiting US defence personnel to work in Australia. The lure comes with promises of good money, accommodation, and citizenship.

 

[Mofra]

I have a friend in the USN who is stationed in Japan and he told me that the Australian Defence Force is actively recruiting US defence personnel to work in Australia. The lure comes with promises of good money, accommodation, and citizenship.

We've being doing this since the mid to late 90s at least - we just can't seem to work out how to solve the recruitment shortage problem

 

[Max zero]

We've being doing this since the mid to late 90s at least - we just can't seem to work out how to solve the recruitment shortage problem

Because both submarine and fighter pilot are actually quite undesirable jobs. Who wants to stay in a cramped sub, breathing recycled air for months at a time? Fighter pilots are an issue because many military pilots prefer transport work which is safer, easier and gives experience toward being a commerical pilot after your military duty is over.

 

[Mofra]

Because both submarine and fighter pilot are actually quite undesirable jobs. Who wants to stay in a cramped sub, breathing recycled air for months at a time? Fighter pilots are an issue because many military pilots prefer transport work which is safer, easier and gives experience toward being a commerical pilot after your military duty is over.

You left out reeking of diesel and having little space for storage so many submariners tend to wear rig when everyone else is wearing civvies - poor bastards travel very, very light.

Most of my mates who went onto fast-jets are still in

 

[Power Raid]

Because both submarine and fighter pilot are actually quite undesirable jobs. Who wants to stay in a cramped sub, breathing recycled air for months at a time? Fighter pilots are an issue because many military pilots prefer transport work which is safer, easier and gives experience toward being a commerical pilot after your military duty is over.

work for the dole

solved!

 

[Smiling Buddha]

These stats are for Canada. Anybody have similar for Aus?

 

[telsor]

These stats are for Canada. Anybody have similar for Aus?

Source, and how did they come up with these 'total project cost' figures (the latter may possibly be determined from reading the source).

C$126Billion for 65 planes that go for roughly $100M each seems particularly high.

 

[RUNVS]

How on the one hand can Abbott claim the NBN was a waste of money but at the same time support this project which is a massive waste of money. Really only someone with a very small penis would want to buy this many F-35's.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

http://www.gao.gov/assets/670/662184.pdf
http://www.acq.osd.mil/ara/am/sar/SST-2013-12.pdf
https://www.policyalternatives.ca/s.../04/The_Plane_That_Ate _Canadian_Military.pdf

 

[telsor]

How on the one hand can Abbott claim the NBN was a waste of money but at the same time support this project which is a massive waste of money. Really only someone with a very small penis would want to buy this many F-35's.

As in, the number that both major parties agrees is the minimum?

 

[telsor]

http://www.gao.gov/assets/670/662184.pdf
http://www.acq.osd.mil/ara/am/sar/SST-2013-12.pdf
https://www.policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National Office/2014/04/The_Plane_That_Ate _Canadian_Military.pdf

So, the $146B was a collection of worst case estimates, including lifetime operational costs...OK. I suppose that's worth considering.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

You are right. We ought to stick to the original estimates, these babies are clearly coming in on-time and on-budget.

 

[telsor]

You are right. We ought to stick to the original estimates, these babies are clearly coming in on-time and on-budget.

No, proper estimates should have best, worst and most likely cases, and all should be considered....From reading the link, this is clearly the worst case.

 

[pokerspiv]

We've being doing this since the mid to late 90s at least - we just can't seem to work out how to solve the recruitment shortage problem

Not being so anal in regards to physical qualifications would probably help.

I applied to join RAAF as an air traffic controller when I was younger. I passed all the aptitude tests etc, then was failed out in the medical because I have eczema.

I asked the doctor how having eczema was relevant to my preferred role, and he said (quote): "Everyone has to do basic. During basic you might catch a skin infection and die and then your family would sue the defense force".

 

[Mofra]

Not being so anal in regards to physical qualifications would probably help.

I applied to join RAAF as an air traffic controller when I was younger. I passed all the aptitude tests etc, then was failed out in the medical because I have eczema.

I asked the doctor how having eczema was relevant to my preferred role, and he said (quote): "Everyone has to do basic. During basic you might catch a skin infection and die and then your family would sue the defense force".

That is crazy - is it still the same? Last I heard there was a shortage of ATCs.

I'm pretty sure I served with people who has some skin conditions (my service was in the late 90s early 2000s).

 

[RUNVS]

So, the $146B was a collection of worst case estimates, including lifetime operational costs...OK. I suppose that's worth considering.

I bet you happily believed the worst case estimates for the NBN.

 

[pokerspiv]

That is crazy - is it still the same? Last I heard there was a shortage of ATCs.

There was a shortage of ATCs then too, this was about 10-11 years ago. Not sure if it is still the same. They called me back 6 months later and asked me to reapply, but I told them my medical diagnosis hasn't changed and they were just like "oh, never mind then".

 

[telsor]

I bet you happily believed the worst case estimates for the NBN.

I bet you happily believed the best case arguments for NBN.

Pretty pointless statement.

I always figured it would be better done by private companies (after all, if it was profitable, they'd jump at the chance), and I think more examination should have gone into the cost/benefit analysis. The actual costs always seemed pretty loose to me (due to how quickly the idea was thrown together I'm sure), but I don't recall seeing a 'worst case estimate'...Just estimates that kept getting blown out.

 

[little graham]

next generation F-35 fighter jet could “shut down” in mid-flight if its fuel overheats, US test pilots have discovered. The fault is the latest in a string of embarrassments for military chiefs and manufacturer Lockheed Martin.
US Air Force engineers encountered the problem while testing the aircraft at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona last week.

Described as one of the world’s “premier fighters” by arms giant Lockheed Martin,

http://rt.com/uk/214931-raf-stealth-jet-overheating/

The long-term fix is to have parking shades for the refuelers,” Resch said. Similar shelters will need to be built on all British bases in order to keep fuel trucks cool during the summer, the Daily Express reports.

What a farce..