Discussion Hickey and Longer

[felsty]

His rucwork is the biggest concern as we all know, he really doesn't even break even let alone give us first use. He doesn't take contested marks, hell look at his stats, he barely marks the ball at all. He doesn't provide any aerial threat in the firward line and his no where near nimble enough or quick enough to play kpd as we've tried multiple times already this season.

Hale is much better with his tap work and is a cracking contested mark, it's just a shame he's on the wrong side of 30 and this will likely be his last year.

And to think Longer wanted to come to the Hawks... So depressing

Hmm yeah i suppose. He definitely isnt a KPD and shouldnt be played as one. Will be interesting to see how he matures etc. His brother looks bloody agile for a big guy in your twos!

 

[Kildonan]

I have a long memory and I'll remember this thread!

At the point where we were 55 pts down... Tom had played 70minutes of footy for 3 possesion and 2 hit outs.

Great last quarter.

He is the reason Nick was moved out of the fwd line... The three of them were too slow as many predicted.

It's ok when the midfield is on top, to be top heavy... But a liability when they are not.

Hickey has good hands
Is slow and lacks body strength.
But his last two games (1&1/2) have been good... Better than he played in the VFL

...and Longer at half time had 1 disposal - a hand pass - so despite spending considerably more time in the heaviest traffic areas of the field, he was unable to find the ball anywhere near as much as someone in a position where the ball was not going very often at all (as attested to by the scoreline, inside 50's or whatever measure of opportunity you wish to use).

I consider Hickey as one of our most important players and easily in our best. We would not have won without his contribution.

I also hold a lot of respect for anyone who changes their mind (and admits it) when the evidence shows their original stance to be imperfect.

 

[God Save Max King]

We turned a soon-to-be-30-year-old Nick Dal Santo into Billy Longer and Josh Bruce, and in a smaller way, Luke Delaney. That's a transaction and a half.

 

[Ricmel]

I am really surprised that anyone questions the value of Hickey and Longer. Hickey is 24 and Longer is 21. Both have the potential to be top line ruckmen and both are mobile enough and strong enough overhead to be dangerous forward options. I can see Hickey developing into a David Hale type. Certainly I think having the two of them, at their age, is going to be a real point of difference for Saints in 4 - 5 years time.

 

[The Punter]

Loved some of Hickey's work. At least on one occasion he had the ball in the clear 50 metres out and was entitled to blaze away, but lowered his eyes and hit a target skillfully. His hands are excellent and is using the ball well.

The problem right at the moment is Longer can only play one position. If Savage hadn't have been subbed out, Richo may well have been thinking about subbing one of the big boys off, but it's funny how things work out sometimes.

Longer was exceptional in the ruck when he initiated body contact with Cordy. One of his hitouts in the second quarter, which ended with a shot on goal that Josh Bruce should have converted, was a "hit out to uber-advantage". He'll have his work cut out next week against Sauce Jacobs but his progress is clear.

Here's the key stat about Hickey. I reckon since the start of last year we've been competitive in six wins and another six matches (v WCEx2 2014, v Ess 2015, v WB 2014, v Carl 1st game 2014, v Bris 2014). So 16 matches we have lost where we have been uncompetitive.

Hickey has played in 8 matches during that time. St Kilda are 4-4 in those matches, and we've been competitive in three of those losses (WCE 1st game 2014, Bris 2014, Ess 2015). The other match Hickey played was v NM in Tassie last year.

With Hickey out, St Kilda are 2-18, with only one other competitive performance other than the wins.

Hickey is the barometer.

 

[stfan]

Often the big blokes become more influential in the second half when the zip goes out of the game. As long as they can hold their own in the first half.

I think that tends to be that theit tapwork/ruckwork gets much better with age. Not so sure it applies equally to their ability around the ground and especially their ability to mark the ball which is my main concern with Longer.

Here's hoping that he can really rampo up the follower part of his game. If he can, then we will have a star on our hands.


Hickey the last 2 games has demonstrated a lot of football smarts, and shows that for a guy that was a non-footballer growing up that he is now really becomga "fooballer" rather than just an athlete.

 

[gringo2011]

Loved some of Hickey's work. At least on one occasion he had the ball in the clear 50 metres out and was entitled to blaze away, but lowered his eyes and hit a target skillfully. His hands are excellent and is using the ball well.

The problem right at the moment is Longer can only play one position. If Savage hadn't have been subbed out, Richo may well have been thinking about subbing one of the big boys off, but it's funny how things work out sometimes.

Longer was exceptional in the ruck when he initiated body contact with Cordy. One of his hitouts in the second quarter, which ended with a shot on goal that Josh Bruce should have converted, was a "hit out to uber-advantage". He'll have his work cut out next week against Sauce Jacobs but his progress is clear.

Here's the key stat about Hickey. I reckon since the start of last year we've been competitive in six wins and another six matches (v WCEx2 2014, v Ess 2015, v WB 2014, v Carl 1st game 2014, v Bris 2014). So 16 matches we have lost where we have been uncompetitive.

Hickey has played in 8 matches during that time. St Kilda are 4-4 in those matches, and we've been competitive in three of those losses (WCE 1st game 2014, Bris 2014, Ess 2015). The other match Hickey played was v NM in Tassie last year.

With Hickey out, St Kilda are 2-18, with only one other competitive performance other than the wins.

Hickey is the barometer.

It's funny how some players really do seem to be the guys who are there for the wins. Not always personal match winners but somehow just seem to be there at the right times or are subtly dominant.

 

[Barrels]

Loved some of Hickey's work. At least on one occasion he had the ball in the clear 50 metres out and was entitled to blaze away, but lowered his eyes and hit a target skillfully. His hands are excellent and is using the ball well.

The problem right at the moment is Longer can only play one position. If Savage hadn't have been subbed out, Richo may well have been thinking about subbing one of the big boys off, but it's funny how things work out sometimes.

Longer was exceptional in the ruck when he initiated body contact with Cordy. One of his hitouts in the second quarter, which ended with a shot on goal that Josh Bruce should have converted, was a "hit out to uber-advantage". He'll have his work cut out next week against Sauce Jacobs but his progress is clear.

Here's the key stat about Hickey. I reckon since the start of last year we've been competitive in six wins and another six matches (v WCEx2 2014, v Ess 2015, v WB 2014, v Carl 1st game 2014, v Bris 2014). So 16 matches we have lost where we have been uncompetitive.

Hickey has played in 8 matches during that time. St Kilda are 4-4 in those matches, and we've been competitive in three of those losses (WCE 1st game 2014, Bris 2014, Ess 2015). The other match Hickey played was v NM in Tassie last year.

With Hickey out, St Kilda are 2-18, with only one other competitive performance other than the wins.

Hickey is the barometer.

InB4 BM's rebuttal...

 

[stfan]

...and Longer at half time had 1 disposal - a hand pass - so despite spending considerably more time in the heaviest traffic areas of the field, he was unable to find the ball anywhere near as much as someone in a position where the ball was not going very often at all (as attested to by the scoreline, inside 50's or whatever measure of opportunity you wish to use).

I consider Hickey as one of our most important players and easily in our best. We would not have won without his contribution.

I also hold a lot of respect for anyone who changes their mind (and admits it) when the evidence shows their original stance to be imperfect.

,

Indeed....and who would wanted to have been a St Kilda key forward in our first half with the rubbish delivery that our team was dishing up to our forwards.

While some would simplisticaly say that Roo moving up the ground was THE difference., it was not. It was one reason, but THE BIGGEST REASON was that we as a team started to aactually use the ball well, find team-mates and break the lines. Apart from scoring more goals ourselves, this also meant that the Doggies supply of "turnover" goals dried up.

 

[SaintRick88]

We turned a soon-to-be-30-year-old Nick Dal Santo into Billy Longer and Josh Bruce, and in a smaller way, Luke Delaney. That's a transaction and a half.

Add when you add to that McEvoy for Dunstan and Savage and our draft kitty of Billings and Acres... That's one hell of an off-season!

 

[Rors]

Add when you add to that McEvoy for Dunstan and Savage and our draft kitty of Billings and Acres... That's one hell of an off-season!

And Eli for 'free' as a rookie too

 

[Rors]

Add when you add to that McEvoy for Dunstan and Savage and our draft kitty of Billings and Acres... That's one hell of an off-season!

And of course, Mav Weller too....

Bruce
Longer
Savage
Weller
Dunstan
Acres
Billings
Templeton

6 out of 8 players already in our best 22, with 2 others making the best '25' (Acres, Templeton) at this stage.... Quite a haul!

 

[mysainters]

King / Gardiner V2

 

[saintsrfreak]

King / Gardiner V2

Except where they were past their prime when they came to us, Longer and Hickey haven't reached theirs yet.

 

[mysainters]

Except where they were past their prime when they came to us, Longer and Hickey haven't reached theirs yet.

precisely

younger versions, dawn of careers not dusk.

scarily similar though, predominately tap ruckman and a ruck/forward type

 

[Defacto]

i like keeping longer in, just to keep hickey fwd and develop his fwd game

 

[Big Mart]

Need a bit more evidence than a couple of games...

I've actually seen Tom play 6 games this year

His output in the AFL has been better than the VFL...

He is averaging
15.5d
1.0g
5.0m (2.5cm)
5.5HO

I am in no way convinced he's a star, or a competent fwd or ruckman at this stage.

Last year Rhys Stanley averaged
12.5d
1.0g
7.0m (1.7cm)
7.5HO

At the same age?

I'll judge him as I see him
Has been good in the last two weeks (although at HT last week, not so good)
But he hasn't been Simin Madden.

 

[mad-saint-guy]

Hickey has shown that even if he isn't our number one ruckman he's just too good a player to leave out of the side. His height, mobility, overhead marking and coordination at ground level make him incredibly difficult to match up on when Roo and Bruce are drawing the top two defenders. He's a great link up option coming out of defence and he'll always at least bring the ball to ground level inside 50. His footskills have improved considerably since he came to the club as well.

Hickey is in our top 10 most talented players and has to stay in the side. If Longer can improve his output around the ground (which he is steadily doing this year) then we've got one of the best ruck combos in the league for the next 8 years. Abolishing the sub rule will be a huge help as well.

Long term I think we'd be hoping for a weekly output along these lines from the rucks

Longer: 10 disposals, 3 marks, 30 hitouts, 3 tackles
Hickey: 14 disposals, 5 marks, 1.5 goals, 10 hitouts

 

[kernelT]

Hickey has shown that even if he isn't our number one ruckman he's just too good a player to leave out of the side. His height, mobility, overhead marking and coordination at ground level make him incredibly difficult to match up on when Roo and Bruce are drawing the top two defenders. He's a great link up option coming out of defence and he'll always at least bring the ball to ground level inside 50. His footskills have improved considerably since he came to the club as well.

Hickey is in our top 10 most talented players and has to stay in the side. If Longer can improve his output around the ground (which he is steadily doing this year) then we've got one of the best ruck combos in the league for the next 8 years. Abolishing the sub rule will be a huge help as well.

Long term I think we'd be hoping for a weekly output along these lines from the rucks

Longer: 10 disposals, 3 marks, 30 hitouts, 3 tackles
Hickey: 14 disposals, 5 marks, 1.5 goals, 10 hitouts

This is fine while we don't have another tall forward knocking on the door but if we had another player of Bruce's calibre in the two's then I would prefer Hickey to play solo ruck and play another forward.

Hickey 15 disp, 5 marks, 1 goal, 30 hitouts
White/Lee/McCartin (whoever) 12 disp, 5 marks, 3 goals, 5 hitouts

We lose a few more hitouts, but add another 1.5 goals.

It's ironic Big Mart that Longer is actually playing closer to a Warnock game than Hickey after all the gumby-rubbishing of Hickey you dished.

 

[stfan]

This is fine while we don't have another tall forward knocking on the door but if we had another player of Bruce's calibre in the two's then I would prefer Hickey to play solo ruck and play another forward.

Hickey 15 disp, 5 marks, 1 goal, 30 hitouts
White/Lee/McCartin (whoever) 12 disp, 5 marks, 3 goals, 5 hitouts

We lose a few more hitouts, but add another 1.5 goals.

.

Expecting your third tall forward to average 3 goals a game is a pretty big ask.

 

[hayes]

That's a massive win if we get 1.5 goals a game from Hickey. Hale for example used to average around 1 or just under.

 

[kernelT]

That's a massive win if we get 1.5 goals a game from Hickey. Hale for example used to average around 1 or just under.

Didn't Stanley average that last year while everyone was s**t-canning him?

 

[hayes]

Didn't Stanley average that last year while everyone was s**t-canning him?

I think people expected forward like goal averages for Stanley rather than the forward-ruck.

 

[kernelT]

Epecting your third tall forward to average 3 goals a game is a pretty big ask.

That's true, I certainly wasn't expecting that from Bruce this year... I gues that's the aim though 2-3 goals from your 3rd forward.

 

[Defacto]

who would saints fans NOT want out of this list:
billy longer, tom hickey, zac clarke