Discussion Hickey and Longer

[God Save Max King]

It's more maturity than work ethic. He's a big happy kid but has some white line fever in him too. He just needs to improve his footy IQ along with his fitness, both of which will come with experience.

I think he has the footy IQ. He knows where to run, he showed that in the Carlton game when he actually won quite a bit of the footy on the smaller ground, and took a few really nice marks (he had 9 possessions in the second quarter, whenever he gets on top the team does too, the Blues game, early vs Collingwood, later vs GCS, 2nd half vs WB, patches vs Ess). I think it's more a problem of him being too unfit and thus unable to get around the ground as much as he should. He'll improve in that area, he has to, can't afford a ruckman who can't move around the ground, not in the modern game.

 

[CursingFijian]

I think he has the footy IQ. He knows where to run, he showed that in the Carlton game when he actually won quite a bit of the footy on the smaller ground, and took a few really nice marks (he had 9 possessions in the second quarter, whenever he gets on top the team does too, the Blues game, early vs Collingwood, later vs GCS, 2nd half vs WB, patches vs Ess). I think it's more a problem of him being too unfit and thus unable to get around the ground as much as he should. He'll improve in that area, he has to, can't afford a ruckman who can't move around the ground, not in the modern game.

Agree with the fitness assessment. His leap also looks affected. Is he completely free of his foot issues?

 

[Persevering Saint]

This week's Engine Room is specifically about Billy's ruckwork.

http://www.saints.com.au/video/2015-05-13/engine-room-hit-outs

 

[Quixote]

Hickey runs strangely.

Can't quite work it out.

I'd swear he has sore hips.

He's not slow, but he takes lots of little steps not big strides.

It comes from his Dad's side I heard. He's one quarter giraffe.

 

[mad-saint-guy]

This is fine while we don't have another tall forward knocking on the door but if we had another player of Bruce's calibre in the two's then I would prefer Hickey to play solo ruck and play another forward.

Hickey 15 disp, 5 marks, 1 goal, 30 hitouts
White/Lee/McCartin (whoever) 12 disp, 5 marks, 3 goals, 5 hitouts

We lose a few more hitouts, but add another 1.5 goals.

It's ironic Big Mart that Longer is actually playing closer to a Warnock game than Hickey after all the gumby-rubbishing of Hickey you dished.

I don't think we'll have to worry about squeezing in another tall forward on the back of VFL performances for a while yet. White is looking very unlikely - all the talk I've heard is that he simply can't get his endurance up to scratch. He did his own training in the off-season and tries his guts out but genetically just has poor aerobic fitness and his asthma isn't helping. Lee now seems to be a defender and Paddy is 2-3 years away yet.

For the next couple of years I think we could go with a structure like this

Riewoldt - wing, pushing forward

HF: Billings, Bruce, Sinclair
F: Lonie, Hickey, Membrey

I think we could get 40+ goals from Bruce, 30+ from Riewoldt, Lonie, Hickey and Billings, and 20+ from Membrey and Sinclair with this setup. I know Membrey hasn't hit the scoreboard much yet but he's still only a kid and would benefit from having more support around him and not copping the second tall defender. Much healthier than our previous reliance on Roo and Milne to kick 50 each and then Kosi or Schneider our next highest with 25.

 

[VDS66]

at the moment, we need 2 rucks, so one will spend time forward. Both are both kids and still away from their best footy.

once sub rules go then it will likely revert to how it was with 2nd ruck off the bench.

both are playing to help them develop and get games into them.

 

[gringo2011]

It comes from his Dad's side I heard. He's one quarter giraffe.

He actually has pretty large thighs for such a skinny guy. Jeff White had a similar build and another with a lumbering gait. Spider Everett too.

 

[God Save Max King]

Longer has had the 2nd largest % of his hitouts sharked by the opposition, behind Will Minson and only 0.1% worse than Todd Goldstein. As our midfield grows, I'd like to see that number go down.

 

[The Punter]

I don't think we're ever going back to the way things were with ruckmen - Collingwood had won a premiership with the new system pre-sub so I think the abolition of the sub rule will just add an extra midfielder.

 

[VDS66]

I don't think we're ever going back to the way things were with ruckmen - Collingwood had won a premiership with the new system pre-sub so I think the abolition of the sub rule will just add an extra midfielder.

The aim is to try and develop Hickey as the ruck / forward to be honest. We don't have anyone else to do that at the moment.

 

[RobbieMuir]

If Hickey can develop his game as a tall forward (there were promising signs last Saturday) he could potentially be the number one forward/ruck in the league. I say this because he is already more than handy around the ground, he is also a good tap ruck man (who will improve once he gets games into him) and he can clearly take a big contested mark. There are other players that are primarily forwards who can pinch hit in the ruck, but aren't at a level where they can win a big percentage of ruck contests when it's their turn. And most of these other forward/rucks aren't 6'8".

Strangely, the only other player who might fit all these criteria is Stanley, but I don't think Rhys is as good as Hickey in the ruck, and while Rhys still has some improvement in his tap work to come, he may have already reached his ceiling as a tall forward (which can't be said of Tom). So I think the last two games has certainly put a new slant on the Hickey/Longer debate and I'm pretty excited about what they can potentially achieve together.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

I think he has the footy IQ. He knows where to run, he showed that in the Carlton game when he actually won quite a bit of the footy on the smaller ground, and took a few really nice marks (he had 9 possessions in the second quarter, whenever he gets on top the team does too, the Blues game, early vs Collingwood, later vs GCS, 2nd half vs WB, patches vs Ess). I think it's more a problem of him being too unfit and thus unable to get around the ground as much as he should. He'll improve in that area, he has to, can't afford a ruckman who can't move around the ground, not in the modern game.

By footy IQ I mean things like not putting a body on Cordy last week & forcing him back & out of the contest (Cordy marked on the line & goaled), not punching the ball through for a point in the 2nd quarter & instead spilling the ball (which Honeychurch swooped on & goaled) and in general just learning the little nuances of being a physical presence in the ruck. They're just things that he will learn from (Delaney gave him a frightful bake after the Cordy mark!)

I think Billy learned a lot from the cooking that he received when he returned to training a bit heavy (knocking down froths at American College Football games will do that to you!)...he's got a massive upside & will be a vital part of our next premiership push.

 

[VDS66]

If Hickey can develop his game as a tall forward (there were promising signs last Saturday) he could potentially be the number one forward/ruck in the league. I say this because he is already more than handy around the ground, he is also a good tap ruck man (who will improve once he gets games into him) and he can clearly take a big contested mark. There are other players that are primarily forwards who can pinch hit in the ruck, but aren't at a level where they can win a big percentage of ruck contests when it's their turn. And most of these other forward/rucks aren't 6'8".

Strangely, the only other player who might fit all these criteria is Stanley, but I don't think Rhys is as good as Hickey in the ruck, and while Rhys still has some improvement in his tap work to come, he may have already reached his ceiling as a tall forward (which can't be said of Tom). So I think the last two games has certainly put a new slant on the Hickey/Longer debate and I'm pretty excited about what they can potentially achieve together.

This is the thing - and I agree 100% with you - we have to get away from the old FF idea and understand that if Hickey gives us 2 goals a game, that's 44 per year, which would be outstanding.

Dawes was more of a forward than a ruck to be honest.

Hickey will hit his prime in 3 to 4 years time and will be exciting to watch. Our biggest problem past has been that Roo copped every defender. If you end up with a Hickey / Bruce / Paddy combo... all of a sudden, defenders will have to be accountable.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

It always amused me that supporters were happy to state categorically that Longer & Hickey could not play in the same side.

While it's only 2 games into their 'dual partnership' it looks like they could really compliment each other nicely. I wasn't happy that Membrey was dropped last week as I thought it would make our forward line top heavy (which it was to an extent in the 1st half) but Tom's perfomance as a tall forward was really encouraging. Hopefully our ball use will improve this week & we can really stretch the Crows defence.

 

[The Punter]

One gets the feeling that the next time McCartin gets a game it will be under the radar against an undersized or undertalented opponent.

 

[VDS66]

It always amused me that supporters were happy to state categorically that Longer & Hickey could not play in the same side.

While it's only 2 games into their 'dual partnership' it looks like they could really compliment each other nicely. I wasn't happy that Membrey was dropped last week as I thought it would make our forward line top heavy (which it was to an extent in the 1st half) but Tom's perfomance as a tall forward was really encouraging. Hopefully our ball use will improve this week & we can really stretch the Crows defence.

Here's the thing...

Lyon has changed things up a bit by playing taller, stronger mids. I look at this as innovation.

so maybe - and I have no idea - just maybe, this is our innovation? The point of difference?

Hawks have done it with Hale, so why can't we?

Reality is that when Longer was rested and Bruce pinch hit... we got smashed in the ruck and had no one up forward.

Not saying that Hickey is THE answer up forward, but having a 2nd ruck who is a ruck man allows us to keep the pressure up at stoppages and gives us first use.

Well that's my fantasy theory, anyways...

 

[mysainters]

Here's the thing...

Lyon has changed things up a bit by playing taller, stronger mids. I look at this as innovation.

so maybe - and I have no idea - just maybe, this is our innovation? The point of difference?

Hawks have done it with Hale, so why can't we?

Reality is that when Longer was rested and Bruce pinch hit... we got smashed in the ruck and had no one up forward.

Not saying that Hickey is THE answer up forward, but having a 2nd ruck who is a ruck man allows us to keep the pressure up at stoppages and gives us first use.

Well that's my fantasy theory, anyways...

I was thinking that too.

If we try to copy everyone else's formula to be successful, we'll already be behind and outdated.

Lets throw things around a little while there is no pressure, some stuff might just work.

 

[The Punter]

mysainters

Exactly right. From a strategic point of view we shouldn't be looking to get better at existing strategies, but to develop the next one which will take the league by storm.

 

[Hayes4PM]

Still not sold on this Hickey/Longer duo. Hickey needs to work on his kicking if he wants to be a forward/ruck. Sure he can take marks, he provides good pressure and is a good tackler, but sometimes he struggles with kicking. Longer has passed him for tapwork and maybe more agile but needs to work on his marking and forward abilities.

 

[The Punter]

If he kicks like he did on the weekend, there will no problem.

Two from two for the Longer/Hickey era.

 

[Cannavaro20]

Still not sold on this Hickey/Longer duo. Hickey needs to work on his kicking if he wants to be a forward/ruck. Sure he can take marks, he provides good pressure and is a good tackler, but sometimes he struggles with kicking. Longer has passed him for tapwork and maybe more agile but needs to work on his marking and forward abilities.

Disagree completely... appreciate i may not be correct but i think that this duo has shown plenty and will stand the test.

 

[Big Mart]

Arryn Sipoos was our next star in 2012 too...

For him to deserve his selection each week as a fwd a pass would be about
12 pos
6m (2cm)
1.5g
4t
10ho

Last two games he's hit or exceeded most of those numbers
Fallen a bit short on others.

Queries imo
Agility as a fwd
Strength as a fwd or ruck

Strengths
Good hands & clever
Finds the footy

Longer
Really needs to hit
10 ppg
30 ho
4 t
4 m

 

[Adam H]

Arryn Sipoos was our next star in 2012 too...

For him to deserve his selection each week as a fwd a pass would be about
12 pos
6m (2cm)
1.5g
4t
10ho

Last two games he's hit or exceeded most of those numbers
Fallen a bit short on others.

Queries imo
Agility as a fwd
Strength as a fwd or ruck

Strengths
Good hands & clever
Finds the footy

Longer
Really needs to hit
10 ppg
30 ho
4 t
4 m

We've played our best football in a while the last two weeks with the inclusion of Hickey with Longer.

 

[Big Mart]

With repect

probably more to do with Dave Armitage and 80 possesions than Tom...

The team has played well... Is that due to Tom .... Or has Tom played well due to the team?

It's pretty simplistic to suggest the inclusion of 1 player influences the performance of 21 others... Especially a fwd.
His numbers aren't exactly Plugger like.
He done well in the role of 2nd fwd

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Disagree completely... appreciate i may not be correct but i think that this duo has shown plenty and will stand the test.

I just hope that people don't just flip out when we get thrashed and, as a result, it appears not to work. Maybe it won't, but just some time either way. I do love what I've seen from Hickey full stop - not sure he makes it as a forward, but his signs simply as a footballer have been positive. Very mobile and good on the ground for such a big guy