List Mgmt. Collingwood needs to improve the top part of the list not the bottom six

[jackcass]

I'd rather not refer to an injury depleted side, and I said etc in my posts several times so I'm obliviously talking about more than six players.

How convenient for your argument. I'm happy to refer to a side that smacks the Cats by 48 points any time.

And you listed 6 players, I included all of them. You can keep shifting the goal posts as much as you like though. I'll still back the selectors over you and I.

 

[nahnah]

My bottom 6 would be young, Armstrong, Dwyer, seedsman, Sinclair and Karnezis of the players that were actually getting games or up for selection so we are getting rid of most if not all of those players.
The new bottom 6 will have some players with long term upside which I'm quite ok with.

 

[loki04]

I am not sure why people dislike blair. I have hardly seen him play a bad game ever. He mightnt stand out but he gives his all. Goldy not far behind. We need these players.

Unfortunately tooves is looking finished which is sad.

Limited footballer.

He has had plenty of poor games.

 

[MarkT2]

I think the Puopolo/Blair comparison is a good one. If they swapped clubs Blair would be a triple premiership player and Puopolo would be criticised every week and the fans would be calling for him to be dropped/delisted.

Its our elite department that we will get improvement and will improve our side, just because many of our elite talents are still pretty young. Guys like Tooovey Goldsack and Blair wiill be superceded in time but theres no deadline on that.

Possibly right re Blair/Puopolo although I think Puopolo has a bit more athleticism.

Our young elite talents consist of Darcy Moore and Grundy as high probability top end players. De Goey maybe - he was good for a first year player. We've lost Freeman and Sharengurg is an unknown quantity. We put a few eggs in that trade/draft basket after the Grundy/Broomhead/Kennedy year. Kennedy is a bust. Broomhead may still make it but he's on a par with Seedsman who people here don't rate. Elliot might get there with more consistency but I'm not sure he's still young. Then there are a bunch of players with some promise. More than likely some of them will not develop. That's just the norm. Someone will emerge unexpectedly but all in all our list renewal has not been the success it was planned to be. We have poor overall skills and deficiencies on every line and players are still leaving.

We need to draft well for 3 years. Take the best player regardless of position and then fill the gaps with free agents and trades. That's where the list is at.

 

[loki04]

To improve the top six of the list we need to drop stop playing the bottom 6 players like Blair, Goldsack etc, for the likes of Maynard, Scharenberg etc. who can develop into top 6 players thus improving our top 6. The players in our top 6 already won't improve much naturally.

Once were in a premiership wining position like Hawthorn than we don't have to worry about dropping bottom 6 players for developing players.


And Toovey, I don't why anyone defends him anymore. He is a shadow of his 2010/11 self no longer the player he was. His kicking has gotten worse and his lost a fair bit agility since his knee injury. His no longer shutting down dangerous opposition players and provides no rebound.

People just really struggle to grasp this don't they?

 

[jmac70]

Possibly right re Blair/Puopolo although I think Puopolo has a bit more athleticism.

Our young elite talents consist of Darcy Moore and Grundy as high probability top end players. De Goey maybe - he was good for a first year player. We've lost Freeman and Sharengurg is an unknown quantity. We put a few eggs in that trade/draft basket after the Grundy/Broomhead/Kennedy year. Kennedy is a bust. Broomhead may still make it but he's on a par with Seedsman who people here don't rate. Elliot might get there with more consistency but I'm not sure he's still young. Then there are a bunch of players with some promise. More than likely some of them will not develop. That's just the norm. Someone will emerge unexpectedly but all in all our list renewal has not been the success it was planned to be. We have poor overall skills and deficiencies on every line and players are still leaving.

We need to draft well for 3 years. Take the best player regardless of position and then fill the gaps with free agents and trades. That's where the list is at.

I would add the following players to our young elite talent: Langdon, Scharenberg, Adams, Williams, Crisp and Broomhead. Along with Treloar that is a nice core of young players who are likely to play together for a sustained period. I see the list as being in reasonable shape.

 

[Rusty Beam]

I think we simply need players who are better than their opponents and win their position.

If this is what you call a role player then that's what we need.

 

[MeisterBot]

To me, I think it's less about top and bottom six, and more about having a balanced structure. Really good teams get away with average players because of their structure and coaching. We don't have a balanced team yet, meaning that our bottom six looks poorer than it should be. I'm still of the opinion that Blair and Toovey aren't best 22, but it's not going to be the difference maker some people think it is if we don't otherwise address key needs.

For starters, barring injuries, the Blair talk is a bit moot. If Treloar fits into our midfield, someone like Swan plays small forward and Blair is pushed out anyway. Our backline is almost there, just replace Toovey with Ramsay or Marsh. Experience and consistency of playing together is what will be needed from this point onward. Midfield too. Swan's input will be hard to replicate but Treloar and the continued development of DeGoey/Crisp will just about be enough especially if Scharenberg makes a midfield transition like Hine and Buckley have been saying since he was drafted.

Just need players on the outside. Since 2010, we've failed to replace Dids and Daisy in our midfield structure. Dids as a hard running outside ball user with supreme ability around goals, and Daisy as a gut running wingman who can burn opponents all day, then run back and chase down opposition. Sidebottom works really hard, but he's too safe and short kicking to give us what Dids did. Didak could sprint from congestion and kick a perfectly weighted ball 50m away to a player running towards goals without them breaking stride. Imagine if we had someone of his ilk kicking it to our leading forwards instead of the usual high bombing.

I have high hopes with Broomhead in this kind of a role. Tim is quicker and harder at the contest which is a necessity in today's game, not as gifted as Didak obviously, but still pretty skilled. Give him a couple of years without injury and he'll become a really good player. It's why I don't think Aish is a priority for us, unless he demonstrates Gaff levels of endurance power running to go along with his kicking skill.

 

[sr36]

People just really struggle to grasp this don't they?

If we continue to zone so regularly in our defence, I agree with you, but if we chose to going back to defenders being accountable for a man, I want Toovey in the team. He's a one one one supremo.

 

[MarkT2]

I would add the following players to our young elite talent: Langdon, Scharenberg, Adams, Williams, Crisp and Broomhead. Along with Treloar that is a nice core of young players who are likely to play together for a sustained period. I see the list as being in reasonable shape.

They are not even close to elite though. They are largely the group I referred to as having promise but to call them elite is wildly optimistic. Williams will be a pretty good player and may develop further and become a very good player for the next 10 years. I am a fan of his. Adams can't kick. Scharenberg has hardly played and not really impressed when he has. You'd have to reserve judgement given his injuries though. Langdon is promising. I'm not sure that he is a KPP though and as a flanker I can't see him being elite. I expect him to have a good career. Crisp is solid player on the improve. Nowhere near elite. Treloar may well be a great get for us but he'll cost us a first round lick and a good player. You can't just add him to the list as if he was a free agent. There are a couple more that show real promise. I like the look of Marsh in particular.

That does not add up to an elite young list. It's not bad but it sure as hell is not elite and sure as heck does not justify the rebuild from where we were. We are a few years away yet from even being contenders and that is current list development and list additions and that assume we stop losing players we have invested development in.

 

[Matt_352]

is it bottom 6 on list or 22?

 

[mike123]

How convenient for your argument. I'm happy to refer to a side that smacks the Cats by 48 points any time.

A side Toovey didn't play in...

And players like Cloke, Ramsay, Goldsack and Broomhead weren't available.

And you listed 6 players, I included all of them. You can keep shifting the goal posts as much as you like though. I'll still back the selectors over you and I.

Our young like Maynard, Scharenberg, Marsh, De Goey haven't been gifted games though and have earned the spot. I do believe that they are putting on superior then the likes of Toovey and Blair etc.

For a start you didn't include Toovey.

Secondly, the etc. is there. Thats means I'm talking about more than six players, And even go back to previous posts. there are more players I'm talking about.

Now if you want a full definite list of the players that I think can push into the top 6 of our list and a full list of players who I think is bottom 6 and should be pushed out.

Than here you go, developing top 6 De Goey, Broomhead, Marsh, Maynard, Scahrenberg and Moore. Bottom six that should be pushed out Blair, Goldsack, Frost, Toovey, Macaffer and White.

Don't Claim I shifted the goal posts, I just never put them in properly in the first place.
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[mike123]

Limited footballer.

He has had plenty of poor games.

He's right you know, you can't see Blair in he's poor games

 

[loki04]

If we continue to zone so regularly in our defence, I agree with you, but if we chose to going back to defenders being accountable for a man, I want Toovey in the team. He's a one one one supremo.

I think he will become a horses for courses selection, I agree 1v1 he is very good hell he even provides drive out of defence but that kick is just ugh and there coms a point wehre we can't have Wiliams tooves Sinks Goldsasck and to a lesser degree Langdon as our rebounders.

 

[loki04]

He's right you know, you can't see Blair in he's poor games

bahaha love ya work!

 

[doodles98]

They are not even close to elite though. They are largely the group I referred to as having promise but to call them elite is wildly optimistic. Williams will be a pretty good player and may develop further and become a very good player for the next 10 years. I am a fan of his. Adams can't kick. Scharenberg has hardly played and not really impressed when he has. You'd have to reserve judgement given his injuries though. Langdon is promising. I'm not sure that he is a KPP though and as a flanker I can't see him being elite. I expect him to have a good career. Crisp is solid player on the improve. Nowhere near elite. Treloar may well be a great get for us but he'll cost us a first round lick and a good player. You can't just add him to the list as if he was a free agent. There are a couple more that show real promise. I like the look of Marsh in particular.

That does not add up to an elite young list. It's not bad but it sure as hell is not elite and sure as heck does not justify the rebuild from where we were. We are a few years away yet from even being contenders and that is current list development and list additions and that assume we stop losing players we have invested development in.

Bit harsh. They don't all have to turn out elite if the majority are good to very good it's enough for us to be contenders. DeGoey looks like an absolute gun. Maynard looks better than average for a first year kid. I agree it's way too early to even say Scharenberg is a player let alone elite from his exposed form. I think Crisp is potentially the best of the lot and you're underselling his potential. Crispy is seriously talented and has the grunt and work ethic to make himself an elite. Adams is becoming an elite ball getter and if we can play to his strengths so he can handball more than kick - then he will be even better. Williams is shaping to be one of the top 5 small backmen in the comp. Langdon could be a champion half back flanker if he can sort his disposal and decision making out. Grundy best under 22 ruck in the comp just about and Moore already looks like one of the most exciting young key forward prospects in the game. Treloar is almost elite now. People have been to quick to write Oxley off but he's shown he can be very damaging in a quarterback role and Marsh is looking really good early days. The only real disappointments are Seedsman, Kennedy and Freeman. I'm reserving judgement on Ramsay and Broomhead. The crop is looking better than just average to good if you ask me.

 

[jmac70]

They are not even close to elite though. They are largely the group I referred to as having promise but to call them elite is wildly optimistic. Williams will be a pretty good player and may develop further and become a very good player for the next 10 years. I am a fan of his. Adams can't kick. Scharenberg has hardly played and not really impressed when he has. You'd have to reserve judgement given his injuries though. Langdon is promising. I'm not sure that he is a KPP though and as a flanker I can't see him being elite. I expect him to have a good career. Crisp is solid player on the improve. Nowhere near elite. Treloar may well be a great get for us but he'll cost us a first round lick and a good player. You can't just add him to the list as if he was a free agent. There are a couple more that show real promise. I like the look of Marsh in particular.

That does not add up to an elite young list. It's not bad but it sure as hell is not elite and sure as heck does not justify the rebuild from where we were. We are a few years away yet from even being contenders and that is current list development and list additions and that assume we stop losing players we have invested development in.

I guess it really comes down to how you see their potential to become elite players. Not too many players make that level under 23 years of age. As young players go I think we are doing alright. In comparison to GWS and Gold Coast we are light years behind, the same can be said for almost every other side. To make the finals next year we are going to need a lot of our senior players to have career best seasons.

 

[MarkT2]

doodles, the comment was in response to a post by Timmy re elite young talent. I wasn't having a go at him or anyone just stating that we don't actually have much in that category at all. You are right they don't all need to turn out elite but you need some in that category. We have some players at the top end that will be gone or near gone by the time this group develops so I just can't see us contending strongly in the immediate/short term. That ship sailed.

Adams is becoming an elite ball getter and if we can play to his strengths so he can handball more than kick - then he will be even better. Langdon could be a champion half back flanker if he can sort his disposal and decision making out.

Just by way of example these two by definition are not elite based on what you say are their flaws. They can certainly improve but to be elite is unlikely in these circumstances. It is rare that a player with Swan's disposal for instances become elite. Adams does not have his speed running capability or sideways agility. Few players can take a half volley on the run like Swan.

 

[MarkT2]

I guess it really comes down to how you see their potential to become elite players. Not too many players make that level under 23 years of age. As young players go I think we are doing alright. In comparison to GWS and Gold Coast we are light years behind, the same can be said for almost every other side. To make the finals next year we are going to need a lot of our senior players to have career best seasons.

We might make up the numbers in 8 if a lot goes right. We are a long way from seriously contending for a GF. To say we need a lot of our senior players to have career best years is basically wishing against the odds.

I'd say The Dogs are in front of us in terms of elite youth. They have a few gems. They are still a fair way off really contending though.

 

[jmac70]

doodles, the comment was in response to a post by Timmy re elite young talent. I wasn't having a go at him or anyone just stating that we don't actually have much in that category at all. You are right they don't all need to turn out elite but you need some in that category. We have some players at the top end that will be gone or near gone by the time this group develops so I just can't see us contending strongly in the immediate/short term. That ship sailed.

In all honesty Mark you are probably correct, but Collingwood have surprised in the past at getting seemingly average teams to play above expectations. I think Bucks has the ability to do that.

 

[MarkT2]

In all honesty Mark you are probably correct, but Collingwood have surprised in the past at getting seemingly average teams to play above expectations. I think Bucks has the ability to do that.

Ah yes here I agree but the fact is that on only two occasions in more than half a century have we won a flag. I have always said it is this culture of honest battling goers and a lack of real class that is a major reason for that lack of ultimate success. It's easy to call out bad luck but if you have enough talent you overcome luck more often than not whereas we are too often at the mercy of luck. That is why I was so frustrated we didn't ride out our opportunity post 2010/11. We are now where probability said we'd be. Back in the pack without a premiership squad after a rebuild. There are plenty of optimists that will disagree no doubt. They've been right once or maybe twice in the lives. The reality is we are a long way away.

 

[mike123]

Ah yes here I agree but the fact is that on only two occasions in more than half a century have we won a flag. I have always said it is this culture of honest battling goers and a lack of real class that is a major reason for that lack of ultimate success. It's easy to call out bad luck but if you have enough talent you overcome luck more often than not whereas we are too often at the mercy of luck. That is why I was so frustrated we did ride out our opportunity post 2010/11. We are now where probability said we'd be. Back in the pack without a premiership squad after a rebuild. There are plenty of optimists that will disagree no doubt. They've been right once or maybe twice in the lives. The reality is we are a long way away.

I agree with the bolded, but I think were are building a strong foundation for a flag. We just need to add more guys with class and we'll be fine.

 

[jmac70]

Ah yes here I agree but the fact is that on only two occasions in more than half a century have we won a flag. I have always said it is this culture of honest battling goers and a lack of real class that is a major reason for that lack of ultimate success. It's easy to call out bad luck but if you have enough talent you overcome luck more often than not whereas we are too often at the mercy of luck. That is why I was so frustrated we did ride out our opportunity post 2010/11. We are now where probability said we'd be. Back in the pack without a premiership squad after a rebuild. There are plenty of optimists that will disagree no doubt. They've been right once or maybe twice in the lives. The reality is we are a long way away.

It's ironic that one of our greatest players now has the job to change that culture. When are Jett and Ayce available to be drafted?

 

[jackcass]

A side Toovey didn't play in...

And players like Cloke, Ramsay, Goldsack and Broomhead weren't available.

For a start you didn't include Toovey.

Secondly, the etc. is there. Thats means I'm talking about more than six players, And even go back to previous posts. there are more players I'm talking about.

Now if you want a full definite list of the players that I think can push into the top 6 of our list and a full list of players who I think is bottom 6 and should be pushed out.

Than here you go, developing top 6 De Goey, Broomhead, Marsh, Maynard, Scahrenberg and Moore. Bottom six that should be pushed out Blair, Goldsack, Frost, Toovey, Macaffer and White.

Don't Claim I shifted the goal posts, I just never put them in properly in the first place.
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Read my posts...

Shame none of them are competing for specific spots in the senior 22 and we can accommodate them all. Now when it comes to a point in time where selectors have to decide either Maynard/Scharenberg/Marsh or Toovey, or Degoey or Blair, then we might see a change in selection.

I acknowledged that there will come a time that players like Toovey and Blair will be overtaken but noted that throughout this season none of them were competing for the same position/role so it's irrelevant

Yep, refer selected sides for rounds 20-22 (just off the top of my head as I think all 6 played) and I didn't say it would be my best 22 but clearly selectors seemed to think it was for those rounds. These "best 22" sides are so fluid and a bit of a lottery so don't put too much weight on it. My point was that it's not an either/or scenario and at times players from outside individual posters "best 22's" will get selected. I don't see why that is so hard to accept for some.

I nominated the teams for rounds 20-22 "as off the top of my head as I think all 6 played". But if it's that important to you then I'm happy to concede that Tooves didn't play round 22, Schaz didn't play rounds 20 & 21, Maynard didn't play round 20 and all 6 didn't play together but only because 1 of your bottom 6 (Tooves) missed 1 game through injury however as I said, all 6 did play in those rounds

How convenient for your argument. I'm happy to refer to a side that smacks the Cats by 48 points any time.

And you listed 6 players, I included all of them. You can keep shifting the goal posts as much as you like though. I'll still back the selectors over you and I.

No mention of Tooves there, just made the point I'm happy to refer to a side that smacks the Cats anytime.

As for other players missing, yep injuries happen. It's why you maintain depth and when you go into a season with 19 players having played more than 50 games, experienced depth like Toovey, Blair and Goldsack is all the more critical. Hate to think where we'd have finished on the ladder without them this season.

Each of those posts was specifically in response to your posts and each one took a slightly different tangent. That to me is shifting the goal posts.

 

[Big Bryza]

Dawes has been delisted (or asked for a trade, which ever one) from Melbourne.

Hypothetically, where would Dawes fit into this if he does a backflip?

Port Melbourne 2nds?