FTA-TV Making a Murderer - SPOILERS

[rumply]

Was anyone else perplexed by Steven Avery's ability to remain unbelievably calm throughout the whole trial? Even when his nephew Bobby was giving allegedly false evidence against him, he just sat there quietly looking him in the eye. I realise there wasn't much he could do but I just found his patience throughout the trial quite remarkable. I think most innocent people in that same situation would have a hard time remaining so composed.

He did have 18 years spent getting used to being patient, just saying

 

[Sylvia Saint]

Was anyone else perplexed by Steven Avery's ability to remain unbelievably calm throughout the whole trial? Even when his nephew Bobby was giving allegedly false evidence against him, he just sat there quietly looking him in the eye. I realise there wasn't much he could do but I just found his patience throughout the trial quite remarkable. I think most innocent people in that same situation would have a hard time remaining so composed.

You could see his heart breaking in half, Ralph Wiggum style, when the Guilty verdict was read though.

 

[The Dice Man]

Was anyone else perplexed by Steven Avery's ability to remain unbelievably calm throughout the whole trial? Even when his nephew Bobby was giving allegedly false evidence against him, he just sat there quietly looking him in the eye. I realise there wasn't much he could do but I just found his patience throughout the trial quite remarkable. I think most innocent people in that same situation would have a hard time remaining so composed.

He had already spent almost half his life in prison for a crime he didn't commit. Perhaps he was just used to it.mi would be raging though.

 

[grizzlym]

BEST THEORY I'VE SEEN TO DATE

The police didn't kill Theresa Halbach. Andrew Colborn located that RAV4 with the assistance of Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas who illegally trespassed onto the Avery Salvage Yard on the night of November 3rd 2005. Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas suspected something was up since the Avery Salvage Yard was the last place they knew Theresa visited on Oct.31st Halloween day. They went snooping on the property and found the car.

Mike Halbach
They checked the car and found the key in the ignition and blood in the cargo area. Mike or Ryan removed the key from the ignition to ensure that no one could easily move the car off of the Avery property... freaked out about this huge discovery they call the Manitowoc Sheriffs Department. Andrew Colborn fielded the call that night and went out and met Ryan and Mike at the Salvage Yard so he could view the car for himself. Ryan and Mike show him the car and to be certain its Halbach's he "calls" in the plate number to dispatch. Colborn has to "call" in... instead of "radio" in... the plate number to Manitowoc dispatch because he wasn't in his police cruiser at the moment, but rather on foot and in the "field' on the Avery Salvage property.

Ryan Hillegas
This mistake places Colborn at the scene and in contact with Halbach's RAV4... 2 days before it is officially located on November 5th, 2005, by Pam Sturm.... This is problematic for Colborn because all call and radio transmissions to dispatch are recorded and logged onto the Manitowoc Police server. Andrew Colborn is now operating outside of police protocol at a potential crime scene that he has no official directive to be at. He tells Mike Halbach and Ryan Hillegas to basically STFU about what they found and not mention to anyone that they were ever on the Avery Salvage property that night. Ryan or Mike turns the RAV4 key over to Andrew Colborn.

Andrew Colborn
Mike and Ryan are told to go home. Andrew Colborn then immediately calls Lt. James Lenk and briefs him about the discovery of the Halbach car and breaches of protocol he committed on the Avery property, also about Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach being there. Lt James Lenk realizing that Colborn's calling in Halbachs plate is a serious mistake with potential consequences orders Andrew Colborn to remove the license plate from Halbach's car and then report to him immediately.

Lt James Lenk
What James Lenk and Andrew Colborn, or the others for that matter, don't realize at this point and are completely unaware of is that Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych have kidnapped, raped, shot and then burned Theresa Halbach in the privacy of the gravel quarry off of Jambo Rd on Halloween evening. They choose to burn her body to dispose of their DNA evidence of the crimes. They hid Halbach's car in the rear of Avery Salvage and wiped it clean of their prints.

Bobby Dassey
I believe it is Scott Tadych's idea to secretly transport the cremains of Halbach from the gravel quarry and dispose them into Steven Avery's burn pit. Scott Tadych transports Halbach's cremains in secret by using one of Barb Jandas burn barrels from her yard. Scott Tadych fails to collect all of Halbach's cremains from the original burn site in the gravel quarry, thus leaving some behind that FBI investigators later find... but he also fails in making certain all of Halbach's cremains are out of Barb Jandas burn barrel after dumping them into Steven Avery's burn pit.

Scott Tadych
This is why investigators found small bits of Halbach in Barb Jandas burn barrel. Thus making a total of three sites where Halbach's cremains are found. Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey are unaware that Ryan Hillegas and Mike Halbach have found Theresas car on the property and that Lenk and Colborn are now involved and in play with their scheme. .........By shear colossal luck, two completely independent frame jobs targeting one man, Steven Avery were shaping up into the perfect storm. On one front, from Lenk and Colborn regarding the RAV4, ....and on the other unconnected front by Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey regarding the cremains of Theresa Halbach. One party wasn't aware of the other's involvements at any point during the days leading up to the official discovery of Halbach's RAV4 at the Avery Salvage Yard hence why the investigation and murder trial made zero sense to anyone especially the Jury.

Ken Kratz
None of the evidence could be connected because it was all unrelated... everybody was guessing. But Buting and Strang had zeroed in on a part of it but couldn't fully form a solid defense to prove it. The Jury couldn't conceive that Manitowoc officers could have conspired to kill Theresa Halbach to frame Steven Avery as Ken Kratz insisted they had to if they wanted to follow the theory the defense presented of the frame up of Steven Avery by Manitowoc officials.


And Ken Kratz was right... Imagine Scott Tadych's confused and utter relief when Steven Avery's blood was found in the Halbach car and the RAV4 key found in Steven Avery's bedroom..... he must have been like.... WTF?! When Steven Avery was convicted of Theresa Halbach's murder, I bet Scott Tadych couldn’t believe his luck.

This is the thread on Reddit that outlines this theory:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMur.../the_most_credible_theory_i_have_seen_so_far/

 

[showdownhero]

Ochre you seem to fail to understand the burden of proof... let me lay it our for you

 

[Ochre]

I've said I believe Avery did it. That's different to whether he should have been convicted or not.

 

[showdownhero]

fair enough then

 

[Crimson Azure]

Just finished season one (will there be another?) without doing any other research.

And I'm pissed!

Keystone cops at there best.

 

[celtic67]

Just finished season one (will there be another?) without doing any other research

Considering it took them 10 years to make season one I highly doubt there'll be another one anytime soon. Highly unlikely there'd be enough material for another episode let alone another series yet anyway.

Avery does have a new defence attorney, Kathleen Zellner - who specialises in exonerating persons wrongfully convicted. She boasts a 17 from 20 record which must give SA a bit of hope.

 

[jod23]

Just finished watching it myself. Completely blown away.

The one thing that sticks out is that neither the case against Avery or Dassey were slam dunks.

There is simply no possible way 12 people could all come to the conclusion that they were definitely guilty. There was reasonable doubt. A lot of reasonable doubt so I just couldnt believe it when they were both handed out with guilty verdicts. I was just mind ****ed by that.

Particularly in the case of Dassey, who lets not forget is borderline *ed. All the jury had was a confession induced under extreme duress without his parents or his lawyer present. To which he then redacted the confession saying he didnt do it.

That's it. He said he did, then he said he didnt. THAT'S ALL THEY HAD.

No physical evidence whatsoever. None.

Just boggles the mind.

I lean towards innocent. Firstly because even though they say Avery has a low IQ, he doesnt come across as a complete moron. Why would you kill someone when you are about to make 36 million dollars?

Why kill someone then leave the car on your own property? Why not burn the car or crush the car? Just didnt make any sense. There was just too many holes in the story to come back with a guilty verdict. Far too many.

America man.... ******* America.

 

[rumply]

Just finished watching it myself. Completely blown away.

The one thing that sticks out is that neither the case against Avery or Dassey were slam dunks.

There is simply no possible way 12 people could all come to the conclusion that they were definitely guilty. There was reasonable doubt. A lot of reasonable doubt so I just couldn't believe it when they were both handed out with guilty verdicts. I was just mind stuffed by that.

Particularly in the case of Dassey, who lets not forget is borderline ******ed. All the jury had was a confession induced under extreme duress without his parents or his lawyer present. To which he then redacted the confession saying he didnt do it.

That's it. He said he did, then he said he didnt. THAT'S ALL THEY HAD.

No physical evidence whatsoever. None.

Just boggles the mind.

I lean towards innocent. Firstly because even though they say Avery has a low IQ, he doesnt come across as a complete moron. Why would you kill someone when you are about to make 36 million dollars?

Why kill someone then leave the car on your own property? Why not burn the car or crush the car? Just didnt make any sense. There was just too many holes in the story to come back with a guilty verdict. Far too many.

America man.... ******* America.

The first jury count in Steven's trial was (iirc) 7 not guilty, 2 guilty & 1 undecided. I know their deliberations are private, but I would love to know how they went from that to all 10 voting guilty. Just another mind boggling part of the whole thing.

 

[jod23]

The first jury count in Steven's trial was (iirc) 7 not guilty, 2 guilty & 1 undecided. I know their deliberations are private, but I would love to know how they went from that to all 10 voting guilty. Just another mind boggling part of the whole thing.

The whole thing is incredible and it's no surprise 7 jurors started off with not guilty because of the amount of holes in the case. How they got everyone to guilty is fishy as all hell. Ive heard one juror has come out and said they felt pressured and scared to not go with guilty.

 

[celtic67]

There is simply no possible way 12 people could all come to the conclusion that they were definitely guilty. There was reasonable doubt. A lot of reasonable doubt so I just couldnt believe it when they were both handed out with guilty verdicts. I was just mind stuffed by that.

You've got to remember that the 12 members of the jury were residents of Manitowoc and had 5 months between Teresa's disappearance and the verdict of heavily biased media coverage.

The sensational headlines were calling Steven Avery a murderer before he even set foot in the courtroom and it wouldn't have been hard for a couple of influential personalities in the jury to convince their peers if they returned a not guilty verdict they could potentially have a murderer living in their neighbourhood.

Imagine the backlash they would've received from their local community had they found him not guilty. I don't necessarily agree with their decision but they were placed in a very uncomfortable position.

 

[jod23]

You've got to remember that the 12 members of the jury were residents of Manitowoc and had 5 months between Teresa's disappearance and the verdict of heavily biased media coverage.

The sensational headlines were calling Steven Avery a murderer before he even set foot in the courtroom and it wouldn't have been hard for a couple of influential personalities in the jury to convince their peers if they returned a not guilty verdict they could potentially have a murderer living in their neighbourhood.

Imagine the backlash they would've received from their local community had they found him not guilty. I don't necessarily agree with their decision but they were placed in a very uncomfortable position.

That's true but if on that jury, im not worried about the community. Im worried about myself. If there is reasonable doubt that he didnt do it, can I live with myself sending him away to prison forever.

Im a strong willed person though, nobody would change my mind. Too many holes. It's totally possible he did do it, but it's also totally possible he didnt so I just couldnt come back with a guilty verdict.

 

[celtic67]

That's true but if on that jury, im not worried about the community. Im worried about myself. If there is reasonable doubt that he didnt do it, can I live with myself sending him away to prison forever.

Im a strong willed person though, nobody would change my mind. Too many holes. It's totally possible he did do it, but it's also totally possible he didnt so I just couldnt come back with a guilty verdict.

Yeah I like to think I'd be exactly the same.

Although there is loads of reasonable doubt you do need to remember the documentary is heavily biased towards the defense even if the filmmakers say it's not.

I've read and listened to a number of interviews with journalists who followed the trial and they all say some crucial evidence presented by the state was not included in the doco. Angenette Levy was the attractive brunette reporter and when asked for her opinion on whether Steven Avery was guilty she says she prefers not comment but later said in another interview that she believed justice was done for the Halbach family.

I really hope this isn't the last we'll hear of this case. F*ck it's intriguing.

 

[jod23]

Yeah I like to think I'd be exactly the same.

Although there is loads of reasonable doubt you do need to remember the documentary is heavily biased towards the defense even if the filmmakers say it's not.

I've read and listened to a number of interviews with journalists who followed the trial and they all say some crucial evidence presented by the state was not included in the doco. Angenette Levy was the attractive brunette reporter and when asked for her opinion on whether Steven Avery was guilty she says she prefers not comment but later said in another interview that she believed justice was done for the Halbach family.

I really hope this isn't the last we'll hear of this case. F*ck it's intriguing.

Yeah ive read plenty on what was left out of the doco. Things like Avery requesting Halbach and also calling her but masking his number. As I said, it's totally possible he did it but it's also totally possible he didnt. You cant send someone away to prison because you think 70% he did it.

It has to be 100%. No margins of error. For me, it was never 100%.

Plus it's kinda strange to still protest your innocence. 10 years down the line he has taken it to every court and now he is even taking on the case himself and pouring through all the documents himself in prison.

Surely at this point, 10 years already into your sentence. Having exhausted all your avenues, even rejected by the Supreme Court, you would just be like, * it. I did it anyways I may as well just let it go and do my time.

But he doesnt. He still continues on. That for me are the actions of an innocent man.

 

[rumply]

yeah masking your number means sfa in the grand scheme of things as it's a common tactic used to get people who dont want to speak to you to answer their phone. As in all likelihood Steven tried to crack on to Teresa every time she visited the property, it's little wonder she would have been screening his calls.

It's not a good look considering what happened, but fairly meaningless afaiac. That said if it is true, it should been addressed in the show.

 

[rumply]

No doubt this will be available in the usual places soon enough

http://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/video/preview-the-state-of-wisconsin-vs-steven-a-avery-609905731803

 

[Quivorir]

Just binged it over the last 24 hours. I personally don't think he did it but can see how others think he did. It's possible he did it and the Manitowic cops made sure he was pinned for it by planting more evidence but who knows. Her ex boyfriend and roommate were suss as * too. Guessed her username and passoword and then obviously deleted voice mails. Why weren't they looked into further?

As far as I am concerned though Brendan had absolutely nothing to do with it, there was zero evidence other than his interview where the cops refused to leave him alone until he said what they wanted him to say, and now that poor bastard has lost his life because of a terrible lawyer.

Also that campaigner that was pretending to cry when he saw that ribbon, go * yourself mate.

 

[celtic67]

Just binged it over the last 24 hours. I personally don't think he did it but can see how others think he did. It's possible he did it and the Manitowic cops made sure he was pinned for it by planting more evidence but who knows. Her ex boyfriend and roommate were suss as **** too. Guessed her username and passoword and then obviously deleted voice mails. Why weren't they looked into further?

As far as I am concerned though Brendan had absolutely nothing to do with it, there was zero evidence other than his interview where the cops refused to leave him alone until he said what they wanted him to say, and now that poor bastard has lost his life because of a terrible lawyer.

Also that campaigner that was pretending to cry when he saw that ribbon, go **** yourself mate.

It's disgraceful they were never investigated. If it wasn't Steve, someone out there definitely knows something and hopefully the popularity of this documentary will awaken their conscience.

Brendan's story I feel is a lot more tragic than Steve's. One day he's in school minding his own business, next thing he knows his locked away for confessing to a crime he didn't even see. My hearts breaks for him and his mother. Had he never been interviewed alone, none of this would ever have happened. That's the part that angers me the most.

Those deleted voicemails could've told us everything. It's amazing how they can re-test 20 year old DNA but they can't retrieve an erased message.

 

[Sylvia Saint]

Yeah ive read plenty on what was left out of the doco. Things like Avery requesting Halbach and also calling her but masking his number. As I said, it's totally possible he did it but it's also totally possible he didnt. You cant send someone away to prison because you think 70% he did it.

It has to be 100%. No margins of error. For me, it was never 100%.

Plus it's kinda strange to still protest your innocence. 10 years down the line he has taken it to every court and now he is even taking on the case himself and pouring through all the documents himself in prison.

Surely at this point, 10 years already into your sentence. Having exhausted all your avenues, even rejected by the Supreme Court, you would just be like, **** it. I did it anyways I may as well just let it go and do my time.

But he doesnt. He still continues on. That for me are the actions of an innocent man.

Totally agree and comments from Zellner (his new lawyer) further backs that point up.

Zellner said she’s been following Avery’s case for years, and after questioning him for hours she decided it was a case she had to take.

“When someone wants every possible test done that could be done that would prove their guilt or innocence, that’s when you know they’re innocent,” she said.

http://wbay.com/2016/01/29/1-on-1-with-steven-averys-attorney-kathleen-zellner/

Sounds like both she and Avery are optimistic of what's to come and we might have some movement with the appeal process in the coming weeks. She's 17/20 for her career, that's Jack Gunston (35m out directly in front) odds for Avery to be freed.

I don't think there's going to be any need for a season two as the whole world has caught on to this. If there is movement there'll be live updates and streams all over the place.

 

[brahj]

One thing that stuck with me was Andrew Colburn calling in the plates of Teresa's car. He specifically says "A 99 Toyota" "Dark Green". You'd think if he was looking at it he'd actually say "Rav 4" given how prominent the logo is on the back and the fact that I think it'd be hard to pick the difference between a 99 Rav 4 or any other year given the body shape really didn't change that much. I think the car actually was parked there and hidden poorly, but by someone who wouldn't use the car crusher on site without raising suspicion because he didn't use it and worked elsewhere: Scott Tadych

The fact that ol' jerk off Tadych and Bobby Dassey's alibis both cover themselves and how much they threw Brendan in the s**t shows that they are guiltier than they seem. Not to mention the Reddit stuff getting around about Tadych leaving work early "not acting himself" the day of Avery's arrest, bloody clothes from "hunting" and Tadych trying to sell a .22 rifle a few weeks after the murder. There's also been footage come out over the last few days showing Kratz "signalling" to Scott Tadych while he was on the stand. A signal that looked like "stop talking".

 

[Fwoy]

No doubt this will be available in the usual places soon enough

http://www.nbcnews.com/dateline/video/preview-the-state-of-wisconsin-vs-steven-a-avery-609905731803

Not much new, just a recap of the series and the respective new lawyers saying they believe they can get their defendants off...

 

[phantom13]

Okay,im not trying to justify the verdict (because like everyone else here i think the verdict has to be Not Guilty based on what we saw only) but a few things to consider that probably pushed the verdict to being what it was
- there is allegedly further evidence we didn't see that was pretty incriminating (a link was posted a few pages back)
- The jury would have known the Avery family and is likely easily influence by that (again i think there was a link to an article written by someone who grew up in a small town talking about how they all have "that" family)
- The holes that you can pick apart in the prosecution case can all be easily explained away (the lack of blood etc). To further explain this, the jury is not meant to provide excuses for the prosecutions handling of the case but if you already have a pre determined idea of what the Averys are its easy to start to justify the issues with the evidence. Im a pretty strong animal rights advocate so i didn't like the guy from the cat story at the start.
- His "Police framed me theory" sounds like the ramblings of a mad man, people are generally trusting of the police so trying to claim they killed her and framed him is a crazy defense

Dont for a second think i am condoning the verdict based on what we saw, im not and i think its crazy based on the doco that he is in jail, but i also think its a bit naive to think the doco (which was clearly biased)is going to present everything factually as it stands, i also think its crazy not to understand that the people of the jury would behave in a human way and not be able to just process info without having a personal bias. If you grew up in a town where you had heard stories about the Averys from people you would go in there with that history before a single word of testimony is spoken.

You can believe he is innocent or guilty but the outcome of the trial is influenced by so many other things.

 

[rumply]

There well may have been stuff left out but so far (that I have seen) there has only been some unconfirmed article stating so, but I think most agree that if producers did leave vital info out, tsk, tsk but is it really that big a deal? & other than some criticism from Kratz, yeah the guy who tried to pressure a domestic abuse victim into a sexual relationship which, along with other offences, deservingly cost him his job & reputation & is probably the last guy that wants a new Avery trial for any number of reasons, I don't see many others coming forward to have a go at the show.

I really have no idea if Steven is guilty or not, but if the show producers did gloss over a few bits to get the story out there & noticed, good luck to them as it's not as if Steven & Brendan have had a fair shake so far & at least now they may get unbiased hearings.