Health Coronavirus 2020 / Worldwide (Stats live update in OP) Part 4

[jatz14]

Just to play Devils advocate, it could also be the case that a lot of deaths are being recorded as covid when that may not even be the case.

So, coincidentally, lots of other conditions requiring oxygen all flared up at the same time.

And Indian Drs are reporting them as covid because they are stupid poorly educated 3rd world Drs that don't know any better, or, because they are part of an international conspiracy that wants to see Indians dying outside hospitals, and pretend it's covid for "reasons".

heck me.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[jatz14]

I dont understand how you dont understand that I am talking about how well a country is set up to handle a pandemic before there is any pandemic. Being an island, few ports of entry, people dont work in the country but live in the neighboring country, UV, weather conditions, 1st world, decent medical systems, population and population density. Most or even all of what I have listed are common for most of the best performing countries. I dont give a sh*t about decisions made after by stupid governments around the world once the pandemic started, countries like Taiwan and Australia and NZ were positioned well to handle the pandemic before it even existed.

Being an island is if no help at all once it gets in, and it got in.



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[jatz14]

I don't believe the bolded, in Australia I could.... but the USA is a cesspool of corruption and political partisanship, virtually everything is looked at through a red or blue lens.

I also don't see doctors as paragons of virtue who could not be subtly persuaded by higher up Hospital administrative financial buffoons to put Covid on a death certificate rather than maybe a pre existing comorbidity.... no harm done, nobody was hurt by it and we get extra funds.

You know it's the hospital that gets the extra funds right, not the Dr.

If my employer tells me to engage in widespread fraud in a situation like a pandemic, because they will make more money I'm telling them to go heck themselves, then I'm telling the WA health department what their up to.

I wouldn't call myself a paragon of virtue, but heck them.

Drs also are not paragons of virtue, but their positions in society makes it easier to tell hospitals and employers to shove it up their arse and walk away. I work in the medical field (not a Dr). Working with Drs is notoriously difficult as they tend to be independent minded and hard to reign in. One executive I met said it was like herding cats.

The idea you could just get a group of Drs to agree to this is absurd. Just one major hospital would find it impossible to approach and convince their Drs to do this without a sizeable number kicking up a stink.

The idea this is widespread in the US is lunacy.

Yes, their are corrupt Drs, but they are stealing FROM the hospital, not for them. and the US medical system sucks and is full of money grubbers. But believing this is literally up there with flat earth theories of absurdity.

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[craigos]

So, coincidentally, lots of other conditions requiring oxygen all flared up at the same time.

And Indian Drs are reporting them as covid because they are stupid poorly educated 3rd world Drs that don't know any better, or, because they are part of an international conspiracy that wants to see Indians dying outside hospitals, and pretend it's covid for "reasons".

fu** me.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

At no stage did I, or even anyone on this thread, even hint at any of that absolute drivel you just wrote above.

Might be time to finish the glass you're on and head to bed. What a bizarre post.

 

[PP34]

I'm in no way using the "he got hit by a truck but had covid so they said he died of covid" schtick. But if the health services are totally overwhelmed they're not going to be undertaking extensive testing to see what an elderly person (for example) died from when they can't even test the living at present.

This is a country that often has large outbreaks of various diseases aside from covid that kills tens of thousands of people annually.

They report the Covid deaths for people who had Covid. It’s pretty simple. There is absolutely no incentive for them to do otherwise. This idea that doctors are all sitting there saying people are dying from Covid on death certificates for no good reason at all is batshit crazy.

Under reporting on the other hand would be massive in a country like India.

 

[jatz14]

At no stage did I, or even anyone on this thread, even hint at any of that absolute drivel you just wrote above.

Might be time to finish the glass you're on and head to bed. What a bizarre post.

You did. If you genuinely do not understand that you did, then that is even more astounding.

There will be some cases of covid cases missed because the patient was never assessed, and some cases of non covid reported as covid.

But for there to be sufficient inaccuracy in the determination of death to make the assessment of covid deaths an overestimation, so as to require you to be 'the devils advocate' requires widespread incompetence, or widespread fraud.

Can you clear up something for me, its long been a puzzle for me. Why this fixation with, 'reporting of covid deaths must be inaccurate, they are probably counting non covid deaths as covid'. When all the actual evidence, from practically everywhere suggests, that where inaccuracies exist, they are generally under reporting, not over reporting. Why did you assume, that if the Drs were tired, and pressed and overwhelmed, that they would mistakenly report non covid deaths as covid deaths, instead of the other way around? Logic dictates, that if Drs are overwhelmed with covid cases and are making errors or assumptions, then the bulk of the errors will be made on covid patients, as covid patients are the bulk of the patients. A medical system under pressure and making errors will thus tend to under report covid, not over report it. So, why assume errors would lead to over reporting, when random errors would tend to lead to under reporting?

From a European investigation from 3 days ago. Reported in DW

https://www.dw.com/en/india-coronavirus-death-toll/a-57338733

'The true numbers are being suppressed'
India's relatively low fatality rate doesn't tell the whole story and suspicions abound that there's substantial undercounting in several states.

Suspected cases are not being added to the final count and deaths from the infection are being credited to underlying health conditions, point out observers.

"There appears to be a wide discrepancy between official records of deaths attributed to COVID-19 and reports of cremations and burials that are many multiples of what might normally have been expected," Gautam Menon, a professor of physics and biology at Ashoka University, told DW.

"These discrepancies suggest that the true numbers are being suppressed," the health expert said. "The actual number of deaths from COVID-19 may be 5 to 10 times the official numbers. Together with under-reporting of cases and the large test positivity ratios we are seeing across the country, the true scale of the pandemic may be far worse than the numbers would suggest."

 

[M Malice]

You know it's the hospital that gets the extra funds right, not the Dr.

If my employer tells me to engage in widespread fraud in a situation like a pandemic, because they will make more money I'm telling them to go fu** themselves, then I'm telling the WA health department what their up to.

I wouldn't call myself a paragon of virtue, but fu** them.

Drs also are not paragons of virtue, but their positions in society makes it easier to tell hospitals and employers to shove it up their arse and walk away. I work in the medical field (not a Dr). Working with Drs is notoriously difficult as they tend to be independent minded and hard to reign in. One executive I met said it was like herding cats.

The idea you could just get a group of Drs to agree to this is absurd. Just one major hospital would find it impossible to approach and convince their Drs to do this without a sizeable number kicking up a stink.

The idea this is widespread in the US is lunacy.

Yes, their are corrupt Drs, but they are stealing FROM the hospital, not for them. and the US medical system sucks and is full of money grubbers. But believing this is literally up there with flat earth theories of absurdity.

On moto g(6) plus using BigFooty.com mobile app

Yes I know, hospitals in the USA are largely privately run businesses/conglomerates and thus profit driven, completely different circumstance to what it is in Australia.

You haven't convinced me that their bosses couldn't persuade them to fudge it, I'm not saying the people who died didn't die "with" covid, I'm saying that there is a possibility that it may not have been the primary cause of death. I'm sure multiple doctors could justify it in their own mind as a minor fudging so that their hospital can get the funds needed to keep up the good work in the medical field.

BTW I'm not a flat earther, there are no tinfoil hats in my cupboard, I don't see large scale corruption as a conspiracy... particularly in the USA where benefactors via lobbyists secure favours routinely in the political landscape. FWIW I see the USA as a crumbling empire, maybe not in my lifetime though.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Yes I know, hospitals in the USA are largely privately run businesses/conglomerates and thus profit driven, completely different circumstance to what it is in Australia.

You haven't convinced me that their bosses couldn't persuade them to fudge it, I'm not saying the people who died didn't die "with" covid, I'm saying that there is a possibility that it may not have been the primary cause of death. I'm sure multiple doctors could justify it in their own mind as a minor fudging so that their hospital can get the funds needed to keep up the good work in the medical field.

BTW I'm not a flat earther, there are no tinfoil hats in my cupboard, I don't see large scale corruption as a conspiracy... particularly in the USA where benefactors via lobbyists secure favours routinely in the political landscape. FWIW I see the USA as a crumbling empire, maybe not in my lifetime though.

Covid is usually the tipping point in patients with comorbidities. The cancer, or the diabetes, or frail old age, are being managed, until Covid sweeps in and overwhelms the already weakened immune system.

 

[M Malice]

Covid is usually the tipping point in patients with comorbidities. The cancer, or the diabetes, or frail old age, are being managed, until Covid sweeps in and overwhelms the already weakened immune system.

I wish I'd posted that, more concise and explanatory of my view than I have been, I tend to woffle on a bit sometimes, thanks.

 

[Hawk Dork]

Yes I know, hospitals in the USA are largely privately run businesses/conglomerates and thus profit driven, completely different circumstance to what it is in Australia.

You haven't convinced me that their bosses couldn't persuade them to fudge it, I'm not saying the people who died didn't die "with" covid, I'm saying that there is a possibility that it may not have been the primary cause of death. I'm sure multiple doctors could justify it in their own mind as a minor fudging so that their hospital can get the funds needed to keep up the good work in the medical field.

BTW I'm not a flat earther, there are no tinfoil hats in my cupboard, I don't see large scale corruption as a conspiracy... particularly in the USA where benefactors via lobbyists secure favours routinely in the political landscape. FWIW I see the USA as a crumbling empire, maybe not in my lifetime though.

So are you trying to say less people died of Ronna in the States and its just a bad flu ?
or what are you trying to say ?

 

[Billy ray]

There’s never been any cases following on from these reports

Wasn’t there reports of fragments in brisbane suburbs, and then a few weeks later they found the missing link between some old cases and new cases which lead to lockdown? So that unknown infected person could have made the fragments?

 

[M Malice]

So are you trying to say less people died of Ronna in the States and its just a bad flu ?
or what are you trying to say ?

I'm trying to say that the people who died "with" Covid would in the vast majority of cases have had 1 if not multiple serious comorbidities and that these comorbidities would/could have been just as significant if not more so in their death than Covid.

 

[Hawk Dork]

I'm trying to say that the people who died "with" Covid would in the vast majority of cases have had 1 if not multiple serious comorbidities and that these comorbidities would/could have been just as significant if not more so in their death than Covid.

60% of Adults who are alive in the US have at least 1 comorbiditie and 40% have 2 or more so its very likely but doesnt mean they didnt die of Covid

 

[M Malice]

60% of Adults who are alive in the US have at least 1 comorbiditie and 40% have 2 or more so its very likely but doesnt mean they didnt die of Covid

I haven't said that HD just putting forward what I thought could be happening.

If you're in reasonable health and under around 50 years of age the chance of death from Covid is minor, hopefully one thing that Covid might have done that is beneficial in the long term for the human species is make us all become more aware and take responsibility for our own health, eat healthily, exercise and maintain a healthy weight range and you will have a robust immune system.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

60% of Adults who are alive in the US have at least 1 comorbiditie and 40% have 2 or more so its very likely but doesnt mean they didnt die of Covid

Therefore if covid didn’t come along they may well have continued to live with their particular disability.

 

[Hawk Dork]

I haven't said that HD just putting forward what I thought could be happening.

If you're in reasonable health and under around 50 years of age the chance of death from Covid is minor, hopefully one thing that Covid might have done that is beneficial in the long term for the human species is make us all become more aware and take responsibility for our own health, eat healthily, exercise and maintain a healthy weight range and you will have a robust immune system.

but according to US stats at least 60% wouldnt be in reasonable health ...so it only refers to 40% of the population who are and plenty of healthy people caught this too.....we have been lucky in Australia the state governments have done a great job at elimination

 

[faible]

I haven't said that HD just putting forward what I thought could be happening.

If you're in reasonable health and under around 50 years of age the chance of death from Covid is minor, hopefully one thing that Covid might have done that is beneficial in the long term for the human species is make us all become more aware and take responsibility for our own health, eat healthily, exercise and maintain a healthy weight range and you will have a robust immune system.

You're doing everything you can to diminish the numbers.

Oh well doctors could be falsifying covid reports to make more money for the hospitals, so the numbers are wrong. I'm not saying they are, but the lack of evidence they are, says that they probably are.

Oh well they had a comorbidity, so their death doesn't really count as dying of covid. They simply died with covid. Their comorbidity got them. The one that they could have lived with for another 3 or 4 decades.

It's just so transparent. Doing that typical "i'm not a conspiracy theorist, i'm just saying what I think could be happening, so I don't actually have to in any way justify it with evidence, in fact, the lack of evidence IS the evidence, because you know, the vibe."

 

[Pilchard_Adams]

Being an island is if no help at all once it gets in, and it got in.



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Of course it helps. If it escapes into the community and you can control the people coming in effectively with very few access points you can lock down and prevent further infections coming in. Germany and Belgium have about 170km of border and there are over 30 access points where people can cross just by road. Much easier to control as an island.

 

[MrKK]

You're doing everything you can to diminish the numbers.

Oh well doctors could be falsifying covid reports to make more money for the hospitals, so the numbers are wrong. I'm not saying they are, but the lack of evidence they are, says that they probably are.

Oh well they had a comorbidity, so their death doesn't really count as dying of covid. They simply died with covid. Their comorbidity got them. The one that they could have lived with for another 3 or 4 decades.

It's just so transparent. Doing that typical "i'm not a conspiracy theorist, i'm just saying what I think could be happening, so I don't actually have to in any way justify it with evidence, in fact, the lack of evidence IS the evidence, because you know, the vibe."

Yes, lots of those 82 year olds dying with Covid would've lived another 3 or 4 decades without it.

 

[faible]

Yes, lots of those 82 year olds dying with Covid would've lived another 3 or 4 decades without it.

Yep. Because that's exactly what I was saying.

 

[MrKK]

Yep. Because that's exactly what I was saying.

Oh well they had a comorbidity, so their death doesn't really count as dying of covid. They simply died with covid. Their comorbidity got them. The one that they could have lived with for another 3 or 4 decades.

The average Covid death isn't living anywhere near another 3-4 decades in the absence of Covid.

 

[Chief]

The average Covid death isn't living anywhere near another 3-4 decades in the absence of Covid.

Call it years, then.

 

[faible]

The average Covid death isn't living anywhere near another 3-4 decades in the absence of Covid.

But that's not the argument that was being made, was it?

People are saying "oh well, if they die, they're not really dying of covid, they're dying with covid, because they're dying of comorbidities."

They're not arguing; "only old people are dying". That was moved on from a while back. Now it's "oh, well yes younger people are dying, but only because of comorbidities."

Shift those goalposts.

 

[PP34]

Therefore if covid didn’t come along they may well have continued to live with their particular disability.

My old man has a health issue. He could easily be in strife if he got it. He’s not that old.

I guess it’s just expected that he would die anyway now, going by some of the twisted logic about people with pre existing conditions some people have.

Another young friend has a condition which he can easily live a long life with but Covid could easily affect him horribly.

This idea that these people dying are expendable or their numbers aren’t as important is disgusting and disgraceful.

 

[Over The Post]

It just occurred to me that there are interesting parallels between the way some people react to "others" and "them" and "oldies" and "co-morbidities", and the way some people react to the unemployed, the homeless, the castoffs of conservative capitalism.

The "I'm all right, Jack" mentality is alive and well.