Health Coronavirus 2020 / Worldwide (Stats live update in OP) Part 4

[owen87]

No I didn't read it(as I said in my post) because it is behind a paywall/subscription request, thanks for copy and pasting for me.

From your pasting >
There have been no public reports that hospitals are exaggerating COVID-19 numbers to receive higher Medicare payments.

"Recent legislation pays hospitals higher Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients and treatment, but there is no evidence of fraudulent reporting."

told PolitiFact it is “very unlikely that physicians or hospitals will falsify data or be motivated by money to do so.”
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My take on it is that they are not denying that the more Covid cases you have the more funding you get, in fact they are implicitly saying that that is the case.

"no public reports" "there is no evidence of fraudulent reporting" "very unlikely that physicians or hospitals will falsify data or motivated by money to do so"

I may be overly cynical but that doesn't read like much evidence that no rorting of numbers is going on, just that they couldn't prove it. The big eyeroll for me is that it is "unlikely" they would not be motivated by money.... IMO big bureaucratic organisations like hospitals would be extremely motivated by money/funding.

You're free to believe what you like, but there's little to no evidence that any widespread abuse of the system occurred.

No comment regarding my last sentence? That treating a coronavirus patient is more costly than a run of the mill pneumonia one?

I'm sure they get paid more for plenty of stuff, I haven't seen anyone talking about widespread abuse of the Medicare system with hospitals mis-reporting heart attacks or anything else. This stuff is also audited.

As the article itself said, there's no evidence and no public reports. This is all conspiracy theory stuff.

 

[JackOutback]

No I didn't read it(as I said in my post) because it is behind a paywall/subscription request, thanks for copy and pasting for me.

From your pasting >
There have been no public reports that hospitals are exaggerating COVID-19 numbers to receive higher Medicare payments.

"Recent legislation pays hospitals higher Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients and treatment, but there is no evidence of fraudulent reporting."

told PolitiFact it is “very unlikely that physicians or hospitals will falsify data or be motivated by money to do so.”
________________________________________________________________________________
My take on it is that they are not denying that the more Covid cases you have the more funding you get, in fact they are implicitly saying that that is the case.

"no public reports" "there is no evidence of fraudulent reporting" "very unlikely that physicians or hospitals will falsify data or motivated by money to do so"

I may be overly cynical but that doesn't read like much evidence that no rorting of numbers is going on, just that they couldn't prove it. The big eyeroll for me is that it is "unlikely" they would not be motivated by money.... IMO big bureaucratic organisations like hospitals would be extremely motivated by money/funding.

Having more patients means hospitals need more funding.

The basic premise of the claim is true, hospitals get extra funding if they have more COVID patiends, but the conspiracy around it has long been debunked.

 

[M Malice]

You're free to believe what you like, but there's little to no evidence that any widespread abuse of the system occurred.

No comment regarding my last sentence? That treating a coronavirus patient is more costly than a run of the mill pneumonia one?

I'm sure they get paid more for plenty of stuff, I haven't seen anyone talking about widespread abuse of the Medicare system with hospitals mis-reporting heart attacks or anything else. This stuff is also audited.

As the article itself said, there's no evidence and no public reports. This is all conspiracy theory stuff.

My original post on this claimed that hospitals get increased funding if they designate a case/death as Covid, I think this has been proved as factual from the article you linked.

Having more patients means hospitals need more funding.

The basic premise of the claim is true, hospitals get extra funding if they have more COVID patiends, but the conspiracy around it has long been debunked.

Thank you for agreeing with my original claim.

 

[owen87]

My original post on this claimed that hospitals get increased funding if they designate a case/death as Covid, I think this has been proved as factual from the article you linked.

Conveniently ignoring this little bit at the end are we?

if there is any doubt/dispute re cause of death they are going to go the Covid route no doubt

Your claim wasn't simply; "hospitals receive more money for coronavirus patients" or "hospitals receive more funding for coronavirus patients, due to the additional cost of providing care to coronavirus patients".

No.

It was 'hospitals receive more money for coronavirus patients. So they'll mis-report coronavirus cases and deaths to receive additional funding even if they haven't occurred the additional costs.'

Or do you want to clarify your position?

 

[M Malice]

Conveniently ignoring this little bit at the end are we?



Your claim wasn't simply; "hospitals receive more money for coronavirus patients" or "hospitals receive more funding for coronavirus patients, due to the additional cost of providing care to coronavirus patients".

No.

It was 'hospitals receive more money for coronavirus patients. So they'll mis-report coronavirus cases and deaths to receive additional funding even if they haven't occurred the additional costs.'

Or do you want to clarify your position?

My original claim was from post #10344 >

Also I know that in the USA if a medical facility records the cause of death as Covid they get more funding, money is a hell of a motivator, if there is any doubt/dispute re cause of death they are going to go the Covid route no doubt.
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IMO the bolded has been proven to be correct as evidenced by the article you pasted.

In hindsight I would take out the "no doubt"..... although I do not see it as being definitively proven that zero rorting is happening, in fact I see it as likely, extra $$$$ is an extreme motivator from my experience.

 

[owen87]

My original claim was from post #10344 >

Also I know that in the USA if a medical facility records the cause of death as Covid they get more funding, money is a hell of a motivator, if there is any doubt/dispute re cause of death they are going to go the Covid route no doubt.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
IMO the bolded has been proven to be correct as evidenced by the article you pasted.

In hindsight I would take out the "no doubt"..... although I do not see it as being definitively proven that zero rorting is happening, in fact I see it as likely, extra $$$$ is an extreme motivator from my experience.

So we're back to this

You're free to believe what you like, but there's little to no evidence that any widespread abuse of the system occurred.

 

[M Malice]

So we're back to this

You say > but there's little to no evidence that any widespread abuse of the system occurred.

Doesn't sound definitive to me.

Although I suppose large bureaucratic organisations like hospitals would in no way fudge statistics to gain additional government funding.

Again, my original claim was correct.

 

[owen87]

You say > but there's little to no evidence that any widespread abuse of the system occurred.

Doesn't sound definitive to me.

Although I suppose large bureaucratic organisations like hospitals would in no way fudge statistics to gain additional government funding.

Again, my original claim was correct.

Part of your original claim was correct. The context it was being used in however, was very dubious.

 

[Pilchard_Adams]

Seems to me like you're trying to conflate a whole heap of disparate things.

By far the most relevant measure is the choices each country makes. Why do Norway, Finland & Sweden have such drastically different outcomes? None of them are islands, but only one of them went with the softly, softly, approach, until they didn't.

Australia has some natural advantages, but has also applied some of the most stringest measures in the western world. There's no point being an island nation, if you then allow completely free travel, and don't take any measures whatsoever to limit peoples' ability to spread it around.

I honestly don't even know what you're arguing, because you're making random statements that don't fit together coherently.

I dont understand how you dont understand that I am talking about how well a country is set up to handle a pandemic before there is any pandemic. Being an island, few ports of entry, people dont work in the country but live in the neighboring country, UV, weather conditions, 1st world, decent medical systems, population and population density. Most or even all of what I have listed are common for most of the best performing countries. I dont give a s**t about decisions made after by stupid governments around the world once the pandemic started, countries like Taiwan and Australia and NZ were positioned well to handle the pandemic before it even existed.

 

[Pilchard_Adams]

I don't believe it will be very long before the next one. Evidence shows more frequent epidemics.

Nature finds a way, and there are too damn many of us on the planet right now with the lifestyle we have

 

[dumb]

I don't disagree with the second point, but use them during the next once-in-a-100-year pandemic? It needs to be used for something in the interim otherwise it will be sitting empty 99 years out of 100. It has to be built to serve more than one purpose.

My theory earlier in the thread about these white elephant quarantine centres were that the calls will come to use them as onshore asylum seeker processing, hence the avoidance to build them.

 

[Rob R]

Might actually have a decent test team if we were 30% Indian.

Might actually have a spinner that can win games on Day 5!

On SM-G570F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Chief]

that doesn't read like much evidence that no rorting of numbers is going on

You have it around the wrong way, though.

If you make an accusation of fraud, you can’t point to “no evidence of no fraud” and lock someone up.

 

[M Malice]

You have it around the wrong way, though.

If you make an accusation of fraud, you can’t point to “no evidence of no fraud” and lock someone up.

I wasn't suggesting there "was" fraud just that government monetary incentives opened up an extremely tempting path to go down.

I'm not saying to "lock someone up" if you have read the whole discussion between me and owen87 you will see that he agreed with my original claim which was that hospitals in the USA were/are given extra funding if they record a death as Covid. IMO not a huge stretch for me to suggest that rorting of statistics would go on in that scenario. I'm not looking for a beyond reasonable doubt outcome, just putting forward the possibility that when governments offer financial incentives for businesses to obtain $$$$ it is not beyond the realms of possibility that it could/would occur.

 

[Chief]

I wasn't suggesting there "was" fraud just that government monetary incentives opened up an extremely tempting path to go down.

I'm not saying to "lock someone up" if you have read the whole discussion between me and owen87 you will see that he agreed with my original claim which was that hospitals in the USA were/are given extra funding if they record a death as Covid. IMO not a huge stretch for me to suggest that rorting of statistics would go on in that scenario. I'm not looking for a beyond reasonable doubt outcome, just putting forward the possibility that when governments offer financial incentives for businesses to obtain $$$$ it is not beyond the realms of possibility that it could/would occur.

As there hasn't been any evidence of fraud, it's disingenuous for people to keep bringing it up with a nudge and a wink. "I'm not saying there IS fraud, but..."

If evidence of fraud emerges, I am sure it will come out.

 

[M Malice]

As there hasn't been any evidence of fraud, it's disingenuous for people to keep bringing it up with a nudge and a wink. "I'm not saying there IS fraud, but..."

If evidence of fraud emerges, I am sure it will come out.

I don't believe the bolded, in Australia I could.... but the USA is a cesspool of corruption and political partisanship, virtually everything is looked at through a red or blue lens.

I also don't see doctors as paragons of virtue who could not be subtly persuaded by higher up Hospital administrative financial buffoons to put Covid on a death certificate rather than maybe a pre existing comorbidity.... no harm done, nobody was hurt by it and we get extra funds.

 

[Over The Post]

It's pricks like this who are going to get us all killed. Its why we can't have nice things.

Two Australian cricketers prove it's still possible to fly home from India

Australian travel restrictions with India are not as watertight as some federal authorities had hoped, with Qatar Airways confirming it remains possible to travel from India to Australia through Doha.

www.abc.net.au

 

[craigos]

Hundreds urged to get tested in Melbourne after 'strong and unexpected' COVID-19 wastewater fragments

Lets keep that fear mongering up

 

[Over The Post]

HUNDREDS!

 

[Big Cox 88]

Hundreds urged to get tested in Melbourne after 'strong and unexpected' COVID-19 wastewater fragments

Lets keep that fear mongering up

What a load of s**t.

 

[freddy mercury]

Hundreds urged to get tested in Melbourne after 'strong and unexpected' COVID-19 wastewater fragments

Lets keep that fear mongering up

Thats exactly what this is. This government are so ******* toxic. Wish they would stop. They are the problem.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Hundreds urged to get tested in Melbourne after 'strong and unexpected' COVID-19 wastewater fragments

Lets keep that fear mongering up

There’s never been any cases following on from these reports

 

[William Wonka]

I don't believe the bolded, in Australia I could.... but the USA is a cesspool of corruption and political partisanship, virtually everything is looked at through a red or blue lens.

I also don't see doctors as paragons of virtue who could not be subtly persuaded by higher up Hospital administrative financial buffoons to put Covid on a death certificate rather than maybe a pre existing comorbidity.... no harm done, nobody was hurt by it and we get extra funds.

If they have covid it goes on the death certificate and rightly so.

If you are soaked in petrol and I flick a match at you which is responsible for your death?

 

[Dhoni Dakurri]

Do you really think it will get to 500 million cases?

They’ve had more than 16,000,000 cases already and there a reports estimating they’ve had 30 times more than this..

At a conservative death rate of 1.2% that is 6 million dead. To put this number in perspective - 6 million Jews died in The Holocaust. At the time this mass genocide was under-stated, under-reported and shrouded in ignorance and denial until after the fact.

Eerie similarities.

This could be the greatest humanitarian disaster of our time. But we have to get our poor athletes to the Olympics...

 

[MrKK]

I don't believe it will be very long before the next one. Evidence shows more frequent epidemics.

What does that say about the long-term viability of our 'shut the door and wait for a vaccine strategy'? How much of the coming years will be spent in international isolation, under threat of domestic lockdowns?