Ukraine on verge of civil war?

[corbomite]

The Russian media isn't any better than the Western media, but the Western media is just spewing out whatever the USA government wants it to. The track record of USA foreign intelligence agencies over the last 15 years is appalling, yet our media lapped it up without ever questioning it. The Germans have now proven that one of the major points that led to sanctions was a lie in that the Russians did not supply to SAM to the rebels to shoot down MH17, but they obtained it from Ukraine army supplies. So how much else is false?

If you look back you will see that I have always said that the truth is somewhere in the middle of what the Russians say and what NATO countries have said, the problem is too many believe Western media and social media as being factual, they aren't. Just look at the social media photos that Ukraine used to claim that Russian tanks had crossed the border which Western press also lapped up. They didn't even realise that the a number of photos were taken at a completely different time of year! When this was pointed out the press just let it die, did they report that they had been lied to by the Ukraine government? hell no, but if it was a Russian lie it'd be all over the news. As an example of lopsided media, any Russian intelligence plane flying near the border is reported, but somehow we don't say anything about incidences where the NATO countries are the protagonist and incurred into Russia, which has happened recently.

Can't reference the quote but I'll use it anyway

"Blind faith in your leaders will get you killed"​

You're actually a joke.
So you benevolently concede that Russian media is no better than its Western counterpart, yet bang on about how the latter is 'spewing out' US gov. propaganda, to paraphrase. Ad infinitum. Well seeing you're being so ecumenical, let us hear about your criticism of Any Russian medium. Come on.
Can you .. well can ya? Have you ever read the shmata, Pravda? Of course not. You rely on googled, propagandist sources to fuel your clearly entrenched bias.
Clap clap. And the sad thing is, you don't even know.

To even suggest, at this juncture, that anyone other than Putin's boiz were responsible for killing the people on MH 17 beggars belief.
Didn't it come to attention that in the immediate aftermath, Putin said nothing ... for days? He obviously had to consult his New York PR firms to determine how best to deflect the blame.
Irony, get it? He pays a motza to companies in America for PR. A selective nemesis for him?

As for NATO's incursions into Russia, wtf? Let's compare that to the Yalta Agreement gift ... then less tacit incursions. Ask the people of Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Belarus, Romania, where do I stop? Germany split in half, rather embarrassing. Millions of people left to the devices of Uncle Joe (Stalin, for you). I suppose we can be thankful there was no internet during the Russian/Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968, otherwise one can only imagine the spin: nazi, fascist Czechs vs the adorable Russians who were just trying to keep the peace. Sound familiar?

Disdain for the US, justifiable at times, need not translate to affection for a heinous regime, by default.
Why do millions of people try to get into the US and other western countries every year and er, none to Russia? Unless they're masochists.
Lucky you're anonymous - Centrelink won't know how you spend your time.

 

[awaremind]

The Germans haven't proven anything other than the rebels shot the plane down. Newsflash for you: the rebels don't have the expertise and knowledge in operating SAM batteries. How do you suppose they operated the BUK? Googl'd it? The fact that the rebels shot down MH 17 proves that the Russians were involved either by repairing an inoperative Ukranian BUK and/or providing a crew to operate the thing.

And just for the record this has nothing to do with the USA and all to do with Ukraine wanting to break free from Russian oppression and improve their living standard in a similar manner to Poland.

Ukraine has its own army and the separatists were recruiting veterans. ?

 

[awaremind]

[QUOTE="WorldCup2022OZ, post: 35912502, member: 94955

And just for the record this has nothing to do with the USA and all to do with Ukraine wanting to break free from Russian oppression and improve their living standard in a similar manner to Poland.[/QUOTE]
But wait, didn't they just re-elect most of the same oligarchs in power before? Just more the ones more friendly to the West ....

 

[Slax]

You're actually a joke.
So you benevolently concede that Russian media is no better than its Western counterpart, yet bang on about how the latter is 'spewing out' US gov. propaganda, to paraphrase. Ad infinitum. Well seeing you're being so ecumenical, let us hear about your criticism of Any Russian medium. Come on.
Can you .. well can ya? Have you ever read the shmata, Pravda? Of course not. You rely on googled, propagandist sources to fuel your clearly entrenched bias.
Clap clap. And the sad thing is, you don't even know.

To even suggest, at this juncture, that anyone other than Putin's boiz were responsible for killing the people on MH 17 beggars belief.
Didn't it come to attention that in the immediate aftermath, Putin said nothing ... for days? He obviously had to consult his New York PR firms to determine how best to deflect the blame.
Irony, get it? He pays a motza to companies in America for PR. A selective nemesis for him?

I read the Russian press with as much scepticism as the Murdoch press where the only information you can really on comes in the sports pages and weather forecast.

As for dealing with PR firms, Jimmy Carter would be the last USA president not to consult with his PR team before making statements, but doesn't also change the fact that why does someone have to make comment immediately? Politics now everywhere is about image and not substance, hell we haven't had a decent government since Keating, everyone since has only cared about opinion polls and being re-elected. With adults having an attention span only slightly longer than a 3 year-old child it's no wonder our press are so bad, investigative journalism wouldn't be read by many so not financially viable for the media to run with it.

As for NATO's incursions into Russia, wtf? Let's compare that to the Yalta Agreement gift ... then less tacit incursions. Ask the people of Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Belarus, Romania, where do I stop? Germany split in half, rather embarrassing. Millions of people left to the devices of Uncle Joe (Stalin, for you). I suppose we can be thankful there was no internet during the Russian/Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968, otherwise one can only imagine the spin: nazi, fascist Czechs vs the adorable Russians who were just trying to keep the peace. Sound familiar?

Disdain for the US, justifiable at times, need not translate to affection for a heinous regime, by default.
Why do millions of people try to get into the US and other western countries every year and er, none to Russia? Unless they're masochists.
Lucky you're anonymous - Centrelink won't know how you spend your time.

WTF has Stalin got to do with this debate? Trying to put a 2014 spin on a 1960s situation shows your naivety, the world was a very different place with very different issues. So the Macarthur trials were not a witch hunt that persecuted innocent people in the USA, the USA was also perfectly entitled to invade other countries as well I assume? You desperately need to understand history a lot better, maybe talk to the history teacher at school for a start.

Would also suggest you check on the political situation in Belarus.

As for what I do, you know absolutely nothing, so go but to the go nowhere uni course you are doing. There are others here who know roughly what I do and it is far more senior and high paying than 98% of people who use BigFooty.

 

[corbomite]

I read the Russian press with as much scepticism as the Murdoch press where the only information you can really on comes in the sports pages and weather forecast.

As for dealing with PR firms, Jimmy Carter would be the last USA president not to consult with his PR team before making statements, but doesn't also change the fact that why does someone have to make comment immediately? Politics now everywhere is about image and not substance, hell we haven't had a decent government since Keating, everyone since has only cared about opinion polls and being re-elected. With adults having an attention span only slightly longer than a 3 year-old child it's no wonder our press are so bad, investigative journalism wouldn't be read by many so not financially viable for the media to run with it.

WTF has Stalin got to do with this debate? Trying to put a 2014 spin on a 1960s situation shows your naivety, the world was a very different place with very different issues. So the Macarthur trials were not a witch hunt that persecuted innocent people in the USA, the USA was also perfectly entitled to invade other countries as well I assume? You desperately need to understand history a lot better, maybe talk to the history teacher at school for a start.

Would also suggest you check on the political situation in Belarus.

As for what I do, you know absolutely nothing, so go but to the go nowhere uni course you are doing. There are others here who know roughly what I do and it is far more senior and high paying than 98% of people who use BigFooty.

I'll call your wtf and raise it, sonny.
You mentioned NATO's incursions into Russia, so I thought I'd enlighten you as to Russia's less nebulous incursions elsewhere - they have priors, you know.
And as for 'different place .. different issues,' ... pftt. Some things never change, irrespective of the system; faux Communism or the cowboys they are now. No matter; still totalitarian with a chip on their shoulder.
Yalta was the daddy of 'em all, where Uncle Joe couldn't believe his luck, and the two insipid capons, Roosevelt and Churchill sniffed curtains.
So you can dismount your high horse, Mr. Senior, High-Paying, More Than 98% of bigfooty users. Haha, good one.

So yer, it is relevant, Incursion-wise, as the mentality hasn't changed - and this is a thread re Ukraine, right?
Perhaps more relevant than you accusing a 5 star General of witch hunts. Or did you mean Joe McCarthy? Tut tut. Those history teachers!

Of course, everyone in office uses PR now, not in dispute. However, I find it cynical and hypocritical, at best, that Putler uses American firms. From the depraved land of his foe? Doesn't he put much credence into his local spinners around the corner at Trotsky Terrace? Maybe they're too drunk trying to figure out what a civilian plane looks like.
Seeing you like the hilarious Keating, I'll paraphrase: Putin is the shiver who has already crawled up people's spines.

 

[awaremind]

I'll call your wtf and raise it, sonny.
You mentioned NATO's incursions into Russia, so I thought I'd enlighten you as to Russia's less nebulous incursions elsewhere - they have priors, you know.
And as for 'different place .. different issues,' ... pftt. Some things never change, irrespective of the system; faux Communism or the cowboys they are now. No matter; still totalitarian with a chip on their shoulder.
Yalta was the daddy of 'em all, where Uncle Joe couldn't believe his luck, and the two insipid capons, Roosevelt and Churchill sniffed curtains.
So you can dismount your high horse, Mr. Senior, High-Paying, More Than 98% of bigfooty users. Haha, good one.

So yer, it is relevant, Incursion-wise, as the mentality hasn't changed - and this is a thread re Ukraine, right?
Perhaps more relevant than you accusing a 5 star General of witch hunts. Or did you mean Joe McCarthy? Tut tut. Those history teachers!

Of course, everyone in office uses PR now, not in dispute. However, I find it cynical and hypocritical, at best, that Putler uses American firms. From the depraved land of his foe? Doesn't he put much credence into his local spinners around the corner at Trotsky Terrace? Maybe they're too drunk trying to figure out what a civilian plane looks like.
Seeing you like the hilarious Keating, I'll paraphrase: Putin is the shiver who has already crawled up people's spines.

Why does he use western firms? Well duh, because A they are better, having had more practice, and B because being western they understand his target Audience better. Everyone, especially politicians are cynical and hypocritical, you have to be to survive.

 

[The Coup]

Good article

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/142321/mark-galeotti/moscows-spy-game

 

[Hinkley Power]

So Putin didn't personally fire the missile that brought down MH17.

Why would the western media go with that story within hours of the plane crashing?

It's rare for the western media to be biased or representing corporate or state interests isn't it.

Where is the retraction?

Abbott still going to shirt front putin when he lands in Brisbane?

 

[The Coup]

People need to stop looking for boogeymen here. this is the two most powerful nations in the world at war with words publicly, while the second most powerful nation (Russia) again molests Ukraine - whether justified, or however justifed. Echoes of Cuba.

 

[Northalives]

People need to stop looking for boogeymen here. this is the two most powerful nations in the world at war with words publicly, while the second most powerful nation (Russia) again molests Ukraine - whether justified, or however justifed. Echoes of Cuba.

Please The Coup, don't even try and compare Cuba and it's struggles with the Ukraine in any way, shape or form.

Cuban history is very instructive if proper and erudite research is carried out as opposed to the "line" taken by Western media concerning Cuba.

The Ukraine situation does not mirror Cuba in anyway at all.

 

[The Coup]

I didn't say it did, I said the western media perception of it does.

Please comprehend

 

[Northalives]

I didn't say it did, I said the western media perception of it does.

Please comprehend

I comprehend now. I obviously got hold of the wrong end of the stick. My apologies.

I'm touchy when it comes to Cuba.

 

[The Coup]

Nah you're right I wasn't clear enough in my initial post.

I'm a fan of any country asserting some independence over American hegemony. But it doesn't mean I'm a fan of the Russian gangster state.

 

[Northalives]

Nah you're right I wasn't clear enough in my initial post.

I'm a fan of any country asserting some independence over American hegemony. But it doesn't mean I'm a fan of the Russian gangster state.

That's cool and I'm no fan of the Russian gangster state either.

 

[Zidane98]

Nah you're right I wasn't clear enough in my initial post.

I'm a fan of any country asserting some independence over American hegemony. But it doesn't mean I'm a fan of the Russian gangster state.

Refreshing to hear. There's some members of this very forum who believe Russia have the best interests of Ukraine at heart and that Russia is concerned about the humanitarian crisis within Eastern Ukraine. I'm not the biggest fan of the yanks either but realistically they have very little to do with this conflict which is all about Ukraine wanting to rid itself of Russian oppression. Very easy for the Russians to blame the USA of course when not addressing their own shortcomings.

 

[The Coup]

Refreshing to hear. There's some members of this very forum who believe Russia have the best interests of Ukraine at heart and that Russia is concerned about the humanitarian crisis within Eastern Ukraine. I'm not the biggest fan of the yanks either but realistically they have very little to do with this conflict which is all about Ukraine wanting to rid itself of Russian oppression. Very easy for the Russians to blame the USA of course when not addressing their own shortcomings.

Yeah I'd really hope not considering this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

 

[awaremind]

Rubbish this is all about world geopolitics. Holodomor is a long way in the past and it was caused by western sanctions imposed on a Georgian leader and caused deaths across the Soviet Union, although a large portion were in Ukraine its not really as though Stalin was allowing radical militia indiscriminantly shell entire cities - which is the genocide happening now.
Poroshenko says -
Because, we will have jobs – they won’t;
We will have pensions – they won’t;
We will have people and children care – they wont;
Our children will go to schools and kindergardens – their will have to sit in basements.
Because they are not able to provide anything.
This is how we are going to win the war.” (91)



Read More http://stateofglobe.com/2014/11/19/...it-in-basements-this-is-how-well-win-the-war/

 

[corbomite]

Rubbish this is all about world geopolitics. Holodomor is a long way in the past and it was caused by western sanctions imposed on a Georgian leader and caused deaths across the Soviet Union, although a large portion were in Ukraine its not really as though Stalin was allowing radical militia indiscriminantly shell entire cities - which is the genocide happening now.
Poroshenko says -
Because, we will have jobs – they won’t;
We will have pensions – they won’t;
We will have people and children care – they wont;
Our children will go to schools and kindergardens – their will have to sit in basements.
Because they are not able to provide anything.
This is how we are going to win the war.” (91)



Read More http://stateofglobe.com/2014/11/19/...it-in-basements-this-is-how-well-win-the-war/

So Holodomor can be dismissed because 'it's a long way in the past?' Just a few years before the Holocaust - are you decrying that too?
And it was caused by the West? Good grief.
The 'Georgian leader' was perhaps the worst tyrant in history ... and you must seriously be crazy.
Seriously.

 

[awaremind]

Massive casualties this year already according to cassad

The overall number of the junta's KIA in the fighting for Debalcevo and the adjacent areas were up to 1500, 900-1100 more KIA the junta lost in the fighting near Logvinovo, Nizhnyaya Lozovaya, Sanzharkovka, Dolomitnoye, Mironovka, Krasnyi Pakhar, and Troitskoye. Overall, according to the preliminary data, the junta lost up to 2400-2600 KIA and MIA in the battle for the Debalcevo wedge (perhaps the number of KIA is somewhat lower, because some of them may still roam somewhere in the area of the former Debalcevo cauldron), about 4500 WIA, up to 650 POW. The NAF losses were about 700-800 KIA, up to 2-2.5 thousand WIA. The majority of irrevocable losses of the sides was due to the artillery fire. If in the area of the airport the junta was confidently ahead with respect to the losses, then in the area of Debalcevo the losses of the sides were quite comparable up until the first week of February. Only when the encircled group started to get routed, the junta became a clear leader with respect to the personnel and materiel losses. If not for the initiative of the Ukrainian commanders who led some of the people out of the encirclement (in spite of the criminal passivity by the AFU General Staff and the sector command), the personnel losses could be much higher. The breaking soldiers were helped by the fact that some of the locations between Logvinovo and Novogrigorovka were only under fire control and a significant part of retreating units manage to make it, although many remained lying in the fields. Overall, the lid of the Debalcevo cauldron was more thin and flexible than the lid of the Ilovaysk cauldron, where an attempt of breakthrough ended up being much more tragic for the encircled troops.
"

 

[NTRabbit]

Russian Army losses have been quite high, so high that when the leader of the Russian version of the RSL began to question the number of military graves suddenly appearing, and numbers of seriously wounded in hospitals - and the lack of benefits for families - she was arrested and charged with treason.

Probably better to be arrested than gunned down in the street though, like one of the last remaining Putin opposition leaders in Boris Nemtsov

 

[blackcat]

So Holodomor can be dismissed because 'it's a long way in the past?' Just a few years before the Holocaust - are you decrying that too?
And it was caused by the West? Good grief.
The 'Georgian leader' was perhaps the worst tyrant in history ... and you must seriously be crazy.
Seriously.

think the good chairman's cultural revolution and the famines in china from mao caused more fatalities than holodomor if that is the metric.

 

[CountryRace]

You're actually a joke.
So you benevolently concede that Russian media is no better than its Western counterpart, yet bang on about how the latter is 'spewing out' US gov. propaganda, to paraphrase. Ad infinitum. Well seeing you're being so ecumenical, let us hear about your criticism of Any Russian medium. Come on.
Can you .. well can ya? Have you ever read the shmata, Pravda? Of course not. You rely on googled, propagandist sources to fuel your clearly entrenched bias.
Clap clap. And the sad thing is, you don't even know.

To even suggest, at this juncture, that anyone other than Putin's boiz were responsible for killing the people on MH 17 beggars belief.
Didn't it come to attention that in the immediate aftermath, Putin said nothing ... for days? He obviously had to consult his New York PR firms to determine how best to deflect the blame.
Irony, get it? He pays a motza to companies in America for PR. A selective nemesis for him?

As for NATO's incursions into Russia, wtf? Let's compare that to the Yalta Agreement gift ... then less tacit incursions. Ask the people of Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Belarus, Romania, where do I stop? Germany split in half, rather embarrassing. Millions of people left to the devices of Uncle Joe (Stalin, for you). I suppose we can be thankful there was no internet during the Russian/Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968, otherwise one can only imagine the spin: nazi, fascist Czechs vs the adorable Russians who were just trying to keep the peace. Sound familiar?

Disdain for the US, justifiable at times, need not translate to affection for a heinous regime, by default.
Why do millions of people try to get into the US and other western countries every year and er, none to Russia? Unless they're masochists.
Lucky you're anonymous - Centrelink won't know how you spend your time.

Russia puts bomb in Cuba the yanks go ******* and almost blow up the world

NATO goes further towards Russia often and its no big deal?

Bizarre logical process that

 

[Power Raid]

Russian Army losses have been quite high, so high that when the leader of the Russian version of the RSL began to question the number of military graves suddenly appearing, and numbers of seriously wounded in hospitals - and the lack of benefits for families - she was arrested and charged with treason.

Probably better to be arrested than gunned down in the street though, like one of the last remaining Putin opposition leaders in Boris Nemtsov

death might be kinder

 

[Power Raid]

Russia puts bomb in Cuba the yanks go ******* and almost blow up the world

NATO goes further towards Russia often and its no big deal?

Bizarre logical process that

I guess you just have to appreciate the debate about communism that played out last century. The yanks might not be perfect but thank god they ruled the world rather than the USSR.

That doesn't mean the yanks shouldn't lift their game or recognise their failings.

 

[CountryRace]

Wat