Autopsy Rd 18 Carlton v North Melbourne Post Match Discussion

[carlton2dabone]

I get what you are trying to say but let's look at your super list.

Waite and Betts chased more money.
Garlet and Robinson aren't setting the world on fire and were cut for off field reasons.
Grigg wanted more opportunity. So did Jacobs, but losing him has hurt.
Kennedy. FFS, you remember the Judd deal?
I'll grant you Laidler, not managed too well by Malthouse.

Waite and Betts chased more money because we deemed them not worthy of paying them more in our club, and the end result is that they have regular spots in better teams while being paid the money that we assessed them as not being worth. FFS Betts is being touted as one of Adelaide's most valuable players.

Garlet and Robinson may not be setting the world on fire, but they are definitely playing better at their new clubs than they did in their last few years with us.

Grigg and Jacob wanted more opportunity, that's right, but we deemed them as not worthy enough of that opportunity and now they hold regular spots in teams that are far better than us.

I concede on kennedy, you win that one.

And Laidler, again another player that wasn't deemed worthy of staying in our team and now has a regular spot in a team that is a premiership chance.


And people seriously want to trade out more of our players without first trying to fix the problem that saw us giving up all the above players because we deemed their performances not worthy of our low quality team?

 

[Cipher]

Waite, Betts, Garlet, Robinson, Laidler, Kennedy, Jacobs, Grigg, etc, etc are all now in the best 22 of teams that are heaps better quality than us

Melbourne and Brisbane are significantly better than us? Were we right to trade Kennedy, Jacobs, and Grigg when we were better than these teams? You're making sweeping statements with no specific examples, presumably because it would be much easier to pick apart.

 

[Prem17]

Hmm, lets go through all your points.
So you provided a couple of examples of Yarran direct opponent hurting us, ok that's fair, but not unexpected as even the best defender in the league still has his opponent do some things that hurt his team.

But lets just go with your examples, I contend that there were many times throughout the year where our own Captains direct opponent was allowed to stroll around the ground with no defending and was allowed to hurt us a lot more than Yarrans opponents were.
Not too mention that I have watched how Jamison, Rowe, Simpson and Tuohy all have done the things that you point out Yarran as doing.


As for Henderson, yes he is not sticking the marks in the forward line, but you can't deny that the few times that he goes back he has no problem sticking the marks. So why not switch him down back, why is the coaching staff so dumb as to not see what we all see on here?
Henderson may not be sticking tackles in our forward line, but Casboult and the other forwards are also not sticking them.
Not to mention that most times Henderson is usually the only forward in our forward line and he has to contend with 2 or 3 opponents so no wonder he is unable to lock the ball in their.


Lastly, yes Yarran has been pretty bad with his skills lately, but at least we know he has sublime skills when he is on, whereas most of our team still miss the target by 5 meters even when they excute the best kick they are capable of.

I provided a couple of Yarran examples off the top of my head.
His lack of discipline has been costing the team so much this year that it has been a media talking point all year.
Did you not see round 3?
For some reason you brought Simpson and Touhy into the argument.
All I will say to that is that I would have either of them over Yarran any day of the week.

As for you bringing Casboult into the discussion, firstly, his major focus is to provide a contest and take marks, not be a chasing/tackling machine.
Casboult takes the grabs and provides a contests and runs through players.
Henderson does none of that.
Added to that, Casboult leads our goal kicking this year while Henderson is barely managing a goal a week.

 

[carlton2dabone]

Melbourne and Brisbane are significantly better than us? Were we right to trade Kennedy, Jacobs, and Grigg when we were better than these teams? You're making sweeping statements with no specific examples, presumably because it would be much easier to pick apart.

No I'm pointing out the facts.

We traded Jacobs, Grigg, Laidler, Betts, and Waite who all now hold regular spots in teams in the top eight while we dwell near the bottom.
Robinson and Garlett play for teams around our level but are now giving more for those teams that they gave us in their last few years.
And you seriously think that its all these players that are at fault and not something at the club that fails to get the best out of players that are now best 22 in top tier teams.


And now we are on the verge of trading out more of our best players because they are not meeting the standard required in our team. Only to see them hold down a regular spot in a far better team like all the above have.

Even worse, its now gotten to the point where we are on the verge of trading out a player that we initially traded into the club in Henderson.

 

[Mentallo]

Is there a more uninspiring side than North?
Played with a full deck all year minus Wells and in all honestly are still no certainties to play finals.

We gift so many goals to the opposition it ain't funny.
Seriously not funny!!
Week after week after week. Soft shitty turnovers.

The side that runs out in round 1 2016 will be so vastly different to the team that played tonight it will not be funny.

Looking forward to seeing Mad Dog Holman and Nicky G (Hopefully) back in the side next week.

 

[carlton2dabone]

I provided a couple of Yarran examples off the top of my head.
His lack of discipline has been costing the team so much this year that it has been a media talking point all year.
Did you not see round 3?
For some reason you brought Simpson and Touhy into the argument.
All I will say to that is that I would have either of them over Yarran any day of the week.

As for you bringing Casboult into the discussion, firstly, his major focus is to provide a contest and take marks, not be a chasing/tackling machine.
Casboult takes the grabs and provides a contests and runs through players.
Henderson does none of that.
Added to that, Casboult leads our goal kicking this year while Henderson is barely managing a goal a week.

No I brought in Simpson and Tuohy and Casboult and even Murphy not to suggest they have been dogging it this year, I brought them into the discussion to show that even though they are putting in the effort as we all think, they still have many instances in a game where they fail to chase a player at a certain time, or fail to put pressure on their direct opponent.

Look, even at his worst as we all think Yarran is playing now with no effort, he still is not hurting the team more than other players that we all think should stay at the club.
Even with Yarrans lack of effort, he still wasn't the reason we lost to Hawks by 130 points, or to North by 70 points tonight, or Collingwood by 70 points earlier in the year, or EFC by 70, or Richmond by a lot, or GWS by 70 or so, etc, ect.

To lose by those margins so many times throughout the year shows that there are way more players out there besides Yarran and henderson that are not putting in the required effort week in and week out.
So singling out Yarran and Henderson for not meeting the standards required of chasing and putting pressure on their opponent is disingenuous when we have our team constantly concede so many easy goals every week.

 

[Jatz]

Nicky G will be a massive in

Oh and woooo, 20k posts. I need to get out more

 

[The Flying Doormat]

Waite and Betts chased more money because we deemed them not worthy of paying them more in our club, and the end result is that they have regular spots in better teams while being paid the money that we assessed them as not being worth. FFS Betts is being touted as one of Adelaide's most valuable players.

Garlet and Robinson may not be setting the world on fire, but they are definitely playing better at their new clubs than they did in their last few years with us.

Grigg and Jacob wanted more opportunity, that's right, but we deemed them as not worthy enough of that opportunity and now they hold regular spots in teams that are far better than us.

I concede on kennedy, you win that one.

And Laidler, again another player that wasn't deemed worthy of staying in our team and now has a regular spot in a team that is a premiership chance.


And people seriously want to trade out more of our players without first trying to fix the problem that saw us giving up all the above players because we deemed their performances not worthy of our low quality team?

Grigg, Garlett, Robinson, Waite and Betts in their current form would not add much to Carltons performance. Betts, who is probably the best of that lot but has struggled in the last month, would be lucky to consistently kick 2 goals a game in our forward line. So I don't think your argument stacks up. The problem is not the players that have left, it's the players that are left.

 

[ShanDog]

Trading certain players may have been a mistake, but that means nothing.

It's all about whether trading the current ones is the right way forward.

If you buy a car that turns out to be a lemon, you don't just walk everywhere for the rest of your life.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

Trading certain players may have been a mistake, but that means nothing.

It's all about whether trading the current ones is the right way forward.

If you buy a car that turns out to be a lemon, you don't just walk everywhere for the rest of your life.

What a strange analogy. But thanks, I'd be hoping to buy a lemon now and later see what it turns out to be.

 

[carlton2dabone]

Grigg, Garlett, Robinson, Waite and Betts in their current form would not add much to Carltons performance. Betts, who is probably the best of that lot but has struggled in the last month, would be lucky to consistently kick 2 goals a game in our forward line. So I don't think your argument stacks up. The problem is not the players that have left, it's the players that are left.

So you are saying that those players that we traded out and now have regular spots in top tier teams would not help our current team, a team that sits right near the bottom of the ladder?

Maybe you are thinking about this all wrong, maybe you should be asking yourself why our club couldn't get the best out of players that now are best 22 in top tier teams. If these players can put in the effort and skill and discipline to hold down regular spots in better teams, why couldn't we get that effort and skill and discipline out of them when we had them at our club.

And the answer that everyone seems to be calling for now is to trade out even more players that we cant get to give the effort and skill and discipline that other teams will be able to get out of them.

Did it ever occur to you guys that the problem might not be entirely the fault of all these players we traded out and even players that we are now calling to trade out, that their might be an issue at the club which needs fixing.

I mean if we trade out Yarran and Henderson and they cement spots in top tier teams, then won't that just add to the pile of proof that we already have that suggests that our club continuously fails to get the best out of our players while we have them.
And I can just imagine hearing all the calls for our new top draft prospects in 3-4 years time to be traded out, as we always seem to do.

 

[carlton2dabone]

Trading certain players may have been a mistake, but that means nothing.

It's all about whether trading the current ones is the right way forward.

If you buy a car that turns out to be a lemon, you don't just walk everywhere for the rest of your life.

And what makes you think that we wont be back in this position in 3-4 years from now where we are calling for our new trades to also be traded out.
Earlier this year there were serious calls both from supporters, media and even some within the club suggesting that Murphy would make good trade bait and should be used, a serious call for our captain to be traded out.
Gibbs is always talked as being trade bait to trade out. Everyone is now screaming for Yarran and Henderson to be traded out at season end.
There were again serious suggestions that MK should be traded.

Well if you keep thinking that every car that you buy is a lemon and should be used as trade bait to get another car in return then maybe the problem isn't the cars that you buy. Especially when you trade that car to someone else and they get it to perform well enough to compete in tougher races.
Maybe the problem has something to do with you, why can't you get the 'lemon' to perform well enough to compete in better races when other cans?

And lastly, consider this for a moment.
Most of those that we trade out end up holding regular spots in top tier teams, while those that we trade in can't even get games in our team which sits near the bottom of the ladder.

And now we have come to the most comical of things, we are on the verge of trading out to another club a player that we initially traded into our club and who at one stage we were all praising.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

Top tier teams like Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide and North. LOL.

 

[carlton2dabone]

Top tier teams like Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide and North. LOL.

Firstly North is higher than us on the ladder and we just got smashed us tonight by 60 points.
Adelaide are higher than us on the ladder and are a genuine chance to play finals this year. Not too mention that Betts is a chance to win coleman medal this year.

Melbourne and Brisbane may not be top tier teams but I definitely think they could beat our team right now.

And lastly, Sydney and Richmond are genuine top 4 chances this year.


FFS, we drafted 3 number 1 pick in Gibbs, Murphy and Kruezer and all those 3 have been seriously suggested as trade bait at some point, both by supporters, media and even some people within the club.
Now everyone is seriously calling for another high pick in Yarran to be traded.
Henderson who we were all praising as being a good trade into our club only about 3 years ago, is also seriously being called to be traded out now as well.

If you can't see a pattern here of our club being unable to get our players to put in the required effort, discipline and skill then you and others are seriously closing your eyes to the mounting evidence in front of you.

I am certain that no matter how many good high draft picks we get this year in exchange for Yarran and Henderson and who ever else we trade out, that those draft prospects just like the high draftees we got before them will end up on the trading table 3-5 years down the track
We need to find out why our players don't perform enough at our club and fix it otherwise we will just keep trading out the best players we have in a revolving door policy while we leave the cloggers and unskilled players to stay and fill spots in the team.

 

[ShanDog]

And what makes you think that we wont be back in this position in 3-4 years from now where we are calling for our new trades to also be traded out.
Earlier this year there were serious calls both from supporters, media and even some within the club suggesting that Murphy would make good trade bait and should be used, a serious call for our captain to be traded out.
Gibbs is always talked as being trade bait to trade out. Everyone is now screaming for Yarran and Henderson to be traded out at season end.
There were again serious suggestions that MK should be traded.

Well if you keep thinking that every car that you buy is a lemon and should be used as trade bait to get another car in return then maybe the problem isn't the cars that you buy. Especially when you trade that car to someone else and they get it to perform well enough to compete in tougher races.
Maybe the problem has something to do with you, why can't you get the 'lemon' to perform well enough to compete in better races when other cans?

And lastly, consider this for a moment.
Most of those that we trade out end up holding regular spots in top tier teams, while those that we trade in can't even get games in our team which sits near the bottom of the ladder.

And now we have come to the most comical of things, we are on the verge of trading out to another club a player that we initially traded into our club and who at one stage we were all praising.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

There's no logic behind saying "We stuffed up some trades so we should not do any trades."

 

[carlton2dabone]

I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

There's no logic behind saying "We stuffed up some trades so we should not do any trades."

I agree, and I'm not saying that we should never do anymore trades because we stuffed up some previous one.

What I am saying is that before we go ahead and trade out more of our best players, we need to find the problem within the club that results in us being unable to get them to put in the required effort, discipline and skill that other clubs end up getting out of them.

Only last year we were all thinking that both Yarran and Henderson were doing great in the team, so what has happened that has made both players look like they don't care out on the field anymore?
And what made all the previous players were traded out not perform up to scratch when they were with us but are now good enough to perform for other team above us in the league?

 

[Styxx]

Let's make no mistake about it. The wheels have fallen off to keep using the car analogies. A large portion of our senior element are all out injured. An absurd number are season or career ending. We are down to playing untried, unproven, underprepared kids and probably a further number of injured players (I am convinced Rowe is dealing with a back issue for example) because thats all we have left.

We can't win. We can only lose and it will be compounded week after week until the season ends. An appropriate finish to a hopeless, miserable, soul crushing season that will see the club lose members, money and nearly everything else in the short term.

All we can do is saddle up next week, be forcefed another mouthful of s**t and move onto 2016 hoping SOS and the recruiting staff can actually do the job properly in at least giving us something to hold onto to.

 

[Tony Lynn 15]

One of our exciting younger prospects who has barely struck a blow all season.

Jones???

 

[chelseacarlton]

How so?

Because as soon as he walked into our club the arse fell out of it.
He did the same at Adelaide,****ed them.
I ain't Jesus.
I'm not going to even try to make you see.
Can't be ****ed wasting my time.
Sorry you and your lovely missus had to be seen in the same frame as that cancerous bloke.

 

[Tony Lynn 15]

I know someone who talks to his own bum 5-6 days a week.

Thy you promised you would never post that about me on this forum!!!!

 

[Tony Lynn 15]

Nicky G will be a massive in

Oh and woooo, 20k posts. I need to get out more

Congratulations Jatz, you should be proud....and just a touch embarrassed!!

 

[Tony Lynn 15]

Let's make no mistake about it. The wheels have fallen off to keep using the car analogies. A large portion of our senior element are all out injured. An absurd number are season or career ending. We are down to playing untried, unproven, underprepared kids and probably a further number of injured players (I am convinced Rowe is dealing with a back issue for example) because thats all we have left.

We can't win. We can only lose and it will be compounded week after week until the season ends. An appropriate finish to a hopeless, miserable, soul crushing season that will see the club lose members, money and nearly everything else in the short term.

All we can do is saddle up next week, be forcefed another mouthful of s**t and move onto 2016 hoping SOS and the recruiting staff can actually do the job properly in at least giving us something to hold onto to.

Well said.

 

[Moe B]

Let's make no mistake about it. The wheels have fallen off to keep using the car analogies. A large portion of our senior element are all out injured. An absurd number are season or career ending. We are down to playing untried, unproven, underprepared kids and probably a further number of injured players (I am convinced Rowe is dealing with a back issue for example) because thats all we have left.

We can't win. We can only lose and it will be compounded week after week until the season ends. An appropriate finish to a hopeless, miserable, soul crushing season that will see the club lose members, money and nearly everything else in the short term.

All we can do is saddle up next week, be forcefed another mouthful of s**t and move onto 2016 hoping SOS and the recruiting staff can actually do the job properly in at least giving us something to hold onto to.

Pretty much spot on... I hope we don't lose the members though!

 

[AB_Blue]

I would suggest there is a 3rd player who has checked out & he hasn't been at the club as long as the other two.

Menz ?

 

[ESKIE]

Tell ya what I'm bloody sick of people trying to do tricky snaps at goal instead of a ******* drop punt

Been going on for years...fancy pants stuff, it is so frustrating, worse is dead sitters and they miss, AFL footballers, missing from 30 mtrs out dead infront