Autopsy 2023 Rd 21 Last quarter blitz sees Blues in 5th spot

Who played well for Carlton in Round 21 vs the Saints?

  • Total voters
    168
  • Poll closed .

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FitzroyBlueBagger said:
Spot on,
I’ve noticed that too, both boys have improved as the year has progressed, Ollie’s kicking has a bit more punch and accuracy now, would be great if he can get some better length into his kicking as he develops further, Binns very similar progression himself at reserves level…
Click to expand...

Well…except for that one oof in the third quarter which fair dinkum I reckon he barely made contact straight off the side of the boot


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7 in a row so great. Let’s make it 8!

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Question: Who is in the Carlton coaching Box ? There was much vision of the sub. Charlie Curnow being prepped on the phone before he went on in the 4th
quarter. Next to him was Vossy, so I assume he was talking to Ashley Hansen ... if not, who else would he be talking to and what other coaches are in the box ... for example ... Luke Power ?
 
Blue Heart said:
Question: Who is in the Carlton coaching Box ? There was much vision of the sub. Charlie Curnow being prepped on the phone before he went on in the 4th
quarter. Next to him was Vossy, so I assume he was talking to Ashley Hansen ... if not, who else would he be talking to and what other coaches are in the box ... for example ... Luke Power ?
Click to expand...
Well the line coaches would be up there because I didn’t see any of them on the bench so likely the forwards coach was on the phone to him
 
Blue and Blue said:
Finished the replay. We were a 50 point better side. Wasted the shots so much. But that's going to happen sometimes with such an attacking mindset. The foward line now is so much like the days when Maclure was the marshall.

St Hilda. The list isnt the problem. It's the fool in charge.
And did they really think 2nd time around Lyon would be any different..............
Click to expand...
He cuddly now
 
This is a post I've been ruminating on more or less since the weekend, concerning the 'one in, one out' thing. Where other clubs might see it as a propaganda kind of a thing - something to inspire rather than something that's done - I think the coaches actually view it as a thing they're doing. You see it in when they select certain players and who goes in or out for them; specifically, Marchbank for Gov, Dow for Cerra, Hewitt for Kennedy, Fisher for Boyd, Martin for Durdin, Owies for Motlop, Hollands for Walsh.

On one hand, the above looks kind of like for like; 3rd KPD/medium intercept for intercept, mid for mid, small/med forward for small forward, etc. There's one there thought that sticks out like a sore thumb for me, Fisher for Boyd; that one is no where near on the surface of it like for like. One of them is a midfielder who avoids contact like the plague, the other a defensive back pocket with small ball sense and neat skills. But here's the thing: the coaches look at a player's abilities and see who they are most like. Fisher, ahead of the ball, has no-one akin to how he plays; behind the ball, he's very, very similar not to Boyd but to Doch. Both are accumulators; both have straight line speed; both are a bit fluky when in traffic; both don't really tackle particularly well; both read the play excellently, but both are mistake prone at times due to trying to play at a million miles an hour.

We all remember the mistake made by Dow to handpass to Fisher, who was moving past before he gathered the ball. But here's the thing: that wasn't a mistake. Fisher spent the entire game signalling for handball receives, because from a stationary position with him getting more time to view the field starting his run from 15m back - as Doc does when he gets a handball receive - he has a better chance to sum up the options than the stationary marker/free winner, and is a player designated to kick the ball in that situation.

The failure there was execution, not gameplan: you can see it in the fact that far from yelling at Fisher for calling for the receive on his wrong side or Dow handpassing to a player about to run into a wall, both players continued playing the way the coach instructed. Fish continued to ask for handball receives, with some of the kicks in those situations coming off to tremendous effect; there was a significant one where he saw Hollands was out before Ollie realised he was out, and kicked it where he wanted Ollie to go. There was genuinely nothing upfield for him to go to, yet due to the time taken to get to that handball receive he had time to sum up the options and go to the right option.

Promotions therefore do not come from merit alone. Promotions come from vacancy first, then capability: for Dow to unseat Cerra - or vice versa - he needs to outperform him. For Fish to play ahead of Doc, he needs to outperform him. For Durdin to make it back in, he needs to outperform Motlop or Owies; for Owies to continue to get picked, he needs to outperform Martin, and so on. It's more than just rhetoric; they're selecting for roles based on availability and merit.

This is the first time I think I've seen anything like it in a Carlton jumper. It's a system designed to allow the list as a whole to play to coached for strengths, with each player given a role within which to grade themselves against each other. It's honest, it's blunt, and it's utterly merit based.

You achieve, or we watch as the next tier down gets a go. Durdin and Motlop for Fogarty and Martin. Your move, Cory and Jesse. Cerra and Walsh go down; in comes Dow and Hollands, and you watch Voss tell Dow that he's earnt his shot but now he has to hold it against the bloke winning the BNF. Imagine if he does it; that's a Norm Smith kind of a performance waiting to happen.

In 2011, Round 14, Carlton were sitting in 5th. This is what I would generally consider to be the high watermark of Carlton that I've seen; we were about as good as we were going to get. We were at times stingy in defense, and we were obliteratingly good in attack. We had Judd, and Murphy, and Carrots, and Gibbs and Kreuz and we were going to go onto bigger and better things. But in that game, West Coast followed us to what at the time was Etihad and is now Marvel, and in an 8 point game stole that 5th spot from us. It was due to that loss that we went on to play in Perth in the semi, on to being crucified by the umpires and losing by three points despite no Gibbs and no Kreuzer.

This match was a like game: lose, and we go into the final three matches needing to win at least 2 if not all three to make finals. Win and keep winning, and 5th is absolutely available. Carlton under Ratten had as their signature a bit of a soft underbelly; they couldn't win 3 games in a row, and they couldn't deal with the manic pressure that has become the vogue in AFL circles since. That Carlton went to water when subjected to physicality; that Carlton dropped their heads when beaten around the ball.

There is a chance - a real ******* chance - that this version of Carlton has already eclipsed 2011, and proved it last week on Sunday.
 
Gethelred said:
This is a post I've been ruminating on more or less since the weekend, concerning the 'one in, one out' thing. Where other clubs might see it as a propaganda kind of a thing - something to inspire rather than something that's done - I think the coaches actually view it as a thing they're doing. You see it in when they select certain players and who goes in or out for them; specifically, Marchbank for Gov, Dow for Cerra, Hewitt for Kennedy, Fisher for Boyd, Martin for Durdin, Owies for Motlop, Hollands for Walsh.

On one hand, the above looks kind of like for like; 3rd KPD/medium intercept for intercept, mid for mid, small/med forward for small forward, etc. There's one there thought that sticks out like a sore thumb for me, Fisher for Boyd; that one is no where near on the surface of it like for like. One of them is a midfielder who avoids contact like the plague, the other a defensive back pocket with small ball sense and neat skills. But here's the thing: the coaches look at a player's abilities and see who they are most like. Fisher, ahead of the ball, has no-one akin to how he plays; behind the ball, he's very, very similar not to Boyd but to Doch. Both are accumulators; both have straight line speed; both are a bit fluky when in traffic; both don't really tackle particularly well; both read the play excellently, but both are mistake prone at times due to trying to play at a million miles an hour.

We all remember the mistake made by Dow to handpass to Fisher, who was moving past before he gathered the ball. But here's the thing: that wasn't a mistake. Fisher spent the entire game signalling for handball receives, because from a stationary position with him getting more time to view the field starting his run from 15m back - as Doc does when he gets a handball receive - he has a better chance to sum up the options than the stationary marker/free winner, and is a player designated to kick the ball in that situation.

The failure there was execution, not gameplan: you can see it in the fact that far from yelling at Fisher for calling for the receive on his wrong side or Dow handpassing to a player about to run into a wall, both players continued playing the way the coach instructed. Fish continued to ask for handball receives, with some of the kicks in those situations coming off to tremendous effect; there was a significant one where he saw Hollands was out before Ollie realised he was out, and kicked it where he wanted Ollie to go. There was genuinely nothing upfield for him to go to, yet due to the time taken to get to that handball receive he had time to sum up the options and go to the right option.

Promotions therefore do not come from merit alone. Promotions come from vacancy first, then capability: for Dow to unseat Cerra - or vice versa - he needs to outperform him. For Fish to play ahead of Doc, he needs to outperform him. For Durdin to make it back in, he needs to outperform Motlop or Owies; for Owies to continue to get picked, he needs to outperform Martin, and so on. It's more than just rhetoric; they're selecting for roles based on availability and merit.

This is the first time I think I've seen anything like it in a Carlton jumper. It's a system designed to allow the list as a whole to play to coached for strengths, with each player given a role within which to grade themselves against each other. It's honest, it's blunt, and it's utterly merit based.

You achieve, or we watch as the next tier down gets a go. Durdin and Motlop for Fogarty and Martin. Your move, Cory and Jesse. Cerra and Walsh go down; in comes Dow and Hollands, and you watch Voss tell Dow that he's earnt his shot but now he has to hold it against the bloke winning the BNF. Imagine if he does it; that's a Norm Smith kind of a performance waiting to happen.

In 2011, Round 14, Carlton were sitting in 5th. This is what I would generally consider to be the high watermark of Carlton that I've seen; we were about as good as we were going to get. We were at times stingy in defense, and we were obliteratingly good in attack. We had Judd, and Murphy, and Carrots, and Gibbs and Kreuz and we were going to go onto bigger and better things. But in that game, West Coast followed us to what at the time was Etihad and is now Marvel, and in an 8 point game stole that 5th spot from us. It was due to that loss that we went on to play in Perth in the semi, on to being crucified by the umpires and losing by three points despite no Gibbs and no Kreuzer.

This match was a like game: lose, and we go into the final three matches needing to win at least 2 if not all three to make finals. Win and keep winning, and 5th is absolutely available. Carlton under Ratten had as their signature a bit of a soft underbelly; they couldn't win 3 games in a row, and they couldn't deal with the manic pressure that has become the vogue in AFL circles since. That Carlton went to water when subjected to physicality; that Carlton dropped their heads when beaten around the ball.

There is a chance - a real ******* chance - that this version of Carlton has already eclipsed 2011, and proved it last week on Sunday.
Click to expand...
Great post, on the Dow/Fisher incident it was definitely a poor handball combined with an equally poor call because of his running line at that moment, but your completely spot on it was one poor moment which happens…
To play and keep continuing in playing in that manner by running daring spreading creating overlapping by the players daring to bold by backing themselves and their teammates in is incredible 👍
 
Last edited:
Gethelred said:
.

There is a chance - a real ******* chance - that this version of Carlton has already eclipsed 2011, and proved it last week on Sunday.
Click to expand...
Different era of football but back then I thought ratten really relied on individuals to step up, something that was exhilarating when it worked but fell apart when it didn't, as an aside his tenure at St Kilda showed a similar pattern despite the years coaching under a very systematic coach in clarkson.

The fact that it seems we now have systems that accommodate plug-and-play replacement and a pressure first game plan says we're in a much better place.
 
Gethelred said:
This is a post I've been ruminating on more or less since the weekend, concerning the 'one in, one out' thing. Where other clubs might see it as a propaganda kind of a thing - something to inspire rather than something that's done - I think the coaches actually view it as a thing they're doing. You see it in when they select certain players and who goes in or out for them; specifically, Marchbank for Gov, Dow for Cerra, Hewitt for Kennedy, Fisher for Boyd, Martin for Durdin, Owies for Motlop, Hollands for Walsh.

On one hand, the above looks kind of like for like; 3rd KPD/medium intercept for intercept, mid for mid, small/med forward for small forward, etc. There's one there thought that sticks out like a sore thumb for me, Fisher for Boyd; that one is no where near on the surface of it like for like. One of them is a midfielder who avoids contact like the plague, the other a defensive back pocket with small ball sense and neat skills. But here's the thing: the coaches look at a player's abilities and see who they are most like. Fisher, ahead of the ball, has no-one akin to how he plays; behind the ball, he's very, very similar not to Boyd but to Doch. Both are accumulators; both have straight line speed; both are a bit fluky when in traffic; both don't really tackle particularly well; both read the play excellently, but both are mistake prone at times due to trying to play at a million miles an hour.

We all remember the mistake made by Dow to handpass to Fisher, who was moving past before he gathered the ball. But here's the thing: that wasn't a mistake. Fisher spent the entire game signalling for handball receives, because from a stationary position with him getting more time to view the field starting his run from 15m back - as Doc does when he gets a handball receive - he has a better chance to sum up the options than the stationary marker/free winner, and is a player designated to kick the ball in that situation.

The failure there was execution, not gameplan: you can see it in the fact that far from yelling at Fisher for calling for the receive on his wrong side or Dow handpassing to a player about to run into a wall, both players continued playing the way the coach instructed. Fish continued to ask for handball receives, with some of the kicks in those situations coming off to tremendous effect; there was a significant one where he saw Hollands was out before Ollie realised he was out, and kicked it where he wanted Ollie to go. There was genuinely nothing upfield for him to go to, yet due to the time taken to get to that handball receive he had time to sum up the options and go to the right option.

Promotions therefore do not come from merit alone. Promotions come from vacancy first, then capability: for Dow to unseat Cerra - or vice versa - he needs to outperform him. For Fish to play ahead of Doc, he needs to outperform him. For Durdin to make it back in, he needs to outperform Motlop or Owies; for Owies to continue to get picked, he needs to outperform Martin, and so on. It's more than just rhetoric; they're selecting for roles based on availability and merit.

This is the first time I think I've seen anything like it in a Carlton jumper. It's a system designed to allow the list as a whole to play to coached for strengths, with each player given a role within which to grade themselves against each other. It's honest, it's blunt, and it's utterly merit based.

You achieve, or we watch as the next tier down gets a go. Durdin and Motlop for Fogarty and Martin. Your move, Cory and Jesse. Cerra and Walsh go down; in comes Dow and Hollands, and you watch Voss tell Dow that he's earnt his shot but now he has to hold it against the bloke winning the BNF. Imagine if he does it; that's a Norm Smith kind of a performance waiting to happen.

In 2011, Round 14, Carlton were sitting in 5th. This is what I would generally consider to be the high watermark of Carlton that I've seen; we were about as good as we were going to get. We were at times stingy in defense, and we were obliteratingly good in attack. We had Judd, and Murphy, and Carrots, and Gibbs and Kreuz and we were going to go onto bigger and better things. But in that game, West Coast followed us to what at the time was Etihad and is now Marvel, and in an 8 point game stole that 5th spot from us. It was due to that loss that we went on to play in Perth in the semi, on to being crucified by the umpires and losing by three points despite no Gibbs and no Kreuzer.

This match was a like game: lose, and we go into the final three matches needing to win at least 2 if not all three to make finals. Win and keep winning, and 5th is absolutely available. Carlton under Ratten had as their signature a bit of a soft underbelly; they couldn't win 3 games in a row, and they couldn't deal with the manic pressure that has become the vogue in AFL circles since. That Carlton went to water when subjected to physicality; that Carlton dropped their heads when beaten around the ball.

There is a chance - a real ******* chance - that this version of Carlton has already eclipsed 2011, and proved it last week on Sunday.
Click to expand...

I appreciate the thought and analysis in this post.
I’m not sure I completely agree with the like for like summation as no 2 players are identical and sometimes due to injury you stretch what you’re looking for to a degree.
Doc and Fish are not very similar and given the chance doc is brutal at both ball and opponent but I see where you’re coming from.

As for the 2011 team, the first 12 to 16 players were super but the list fell away pretty quickly.

The current team is perhaps not as high end (still have some absolute stars of course), but we have a higher ‘floor’ and more balanced list.

I do think we have some holes still but seem to be covering them well and for the first time in more than a decade the players believe they can get the job done.


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Gethelred said:
You see it in when they select certain players and who goes in or out for them; specifically, Marchbank for Gov, Dow for Cerra, Hewitt for Kennedy, Fisher for Boyd, Martin for Durdin, Owies for Motlop, Hollands for Walsh.
Click to expand...
Although,
Marchy came in for Cowan (who came in for Boyd).
Fisher came in for Gov.
Hewett came in for Dow.
Hollands came in for Cerra or Cripps (they both missed the WC game, with Ed being the other middish inclusion).
 

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lily of laguna said:
I appreciate the thought and analysis in this post.
I’m not sure I completely agree with the like for like summation as no 2 players are identical and sometimes due to injury you stretch what you’re looking for to a degree.
Click to expand...
In terms of what the players bring to the table, of course you're not going to get like for like. They're not identical twins; they're going to have different attributes. It's why Dow is - even despite how much of a good news story his game last week was - unlikely to retain his position over Cerra; Cerra's a better kick, a better tackler, wins the ball more, and is a better defensive runner. Dow's speed isn't enough to make up for it.

Kennedy is faster and while Hewitt is a decent kick at a range of 30m Kennedy is both an accurate kick and a long one. So, Kennedy over Hewitt, despite Hewitt being capable of shutdown.

It's roles and complements to other players. With a clear person to unseat, the players now know what they have to do to earn that position in the ones; it's not a David Teague 'try harder' thing.
lily of laguna said:
Doc and Fish are not very similar and given the chance doc is brutal at both ball and opponent but I see where you’re coming from.
Click to expand...
This is an eye test thing as opposed to something that bears out statistically.
lily of laguna said:
As for the 2011 team, the first 12 to 16 players were super but the list fell away pretty quickly.

The current team is perhaps not as high end (still have some absolute stars of course), but we have a higher ‘floor’ and more balanced list.

I do think we have some holes still but seem to be covering them well and for the first time in more than a decade the players believe they can get the job done.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...
I reckon the team we have right now would tackle and bump them into the ground inside, and Cottrell, Walsh, Acres, Doc and Cerra would run them off their feet. Setanta would not be beating Weitering overhead, and the rest of the backline wouldn't be letting the ball hit the deck.

And the idea of Jamison sitting either of Harry or Charlie - granted, I was one of Jamo's biggest fans - is somewhat laughable. Henderson on Harry maybe, but even then Harry's faster, taller, jumps higher.
Stamos said:
Although,
Marchy came in for Cowan (who came in for Boyd).
Fisher came in for Gov.
Hewett came in for Dow.
Hollands came in for Cerra or Cripps (they both missed the WC game, with Ed being the other middish inclusion).
Click to expand...
We were very tall against Collingwood behind the footy, so Marchbank for Gov happened over 2 weeks (Fisher replacing Gov therefore meaning Fisher replaces Boyd/Cowan rather than McGovern). Hewitt was a better replacement for Kennedy than Dow was. Hollands was promoted when Walsh went down.

I get that this is a hypothetical, but you can see what I mean.
 
Gethelred said:
This is a post I've been ruminating on more or less since the weekend, concerning the 'one in, one out' thing. Where other clubs might see it as a propaganda kind of a thing - something to inspire rather than something that's done - I think the coaches actually view it as a thing they're doing. You see it in when they select certain players and who goes in or out for them; specifically, Marchbank for Gov, Dow for Cerra, Hewitt for Kennedy, Fisher for Boyd, Martin for Durdin, Owies for Motlop, Hollands for Walsh.

On one hand, the above looks kind of like for like; 3rd KPD/medium intercept for intercept, mid for mid, small/med forward for small forward, etc. There's one there thought that sticks out like a sore thumb for me, Fisher for Boyd; that one is no where near on the surface of it like for like. One of them is a midfielder who avoids contact like the plague, the other a defensive back pocket with small ball sense and neat skills. But here's the thing: the coaches look at a player's abilities and see who they are most like. Fisher, ahead of the ball, has no-one akin to how he plays; behind the ball, he's very, very similar not to Boyd but to Doch. Both are accumulators; both have straight line speed; both are a bit fluky when in traffic; both don't really tackle particularly well; both read the play excellently, but both are mistake prone at times due to trying to play at a million miles an hour.

We all remember the mistake made by Dow to handpass to Fisher, who was moving past before he gathered the ball. But here's the thing: that wasn't a mistake. Fisher spent the entire game signalling for handball receives, because from a stationary position with him getting more time to view the field starting his run from 15m back - as Doc does when he gets a handball receive - he has a better chance to sum up the options than the stationary marker/free winner, and is a player designated to kick the ball in that situation.

The failure there was execution, not gameplan: you can see it in the fact that far from yelling at Fisher for calling for the receive on his wrong side or Dow handpassing to a player about to run into a wall, both players continued playing the way the coach instructed. Fish continued to ask for handball receives, with some of the kicks in those situations coming off to tremendous effect; there was a significant one where he saw Hollands was out before Ollie realised he was out, and kicked it where he wanted Ollie to go. There was genuinely nothing upfield for him to go to, yet due to the time taken to get to that handball receive he had time to sum up the options and go to the right option.

Promotions therefore do not come from merit alone. Promotions come from vacancy first, then capability: for Dow to unseat Cerra - or vice versa - he needs to outperform him. For Fish to play ahead of Doc, he needs to outperform him. For Durdin to make it back in, he needs to outperform Motlop or Owies; for Owies to continue to get picked, he needs to outperform Martin, and so on. It's more than just rhetoric; they're selecting for roles based on availability and merit.

This is the first time I think I've seen anything like it in a Carlton jumper. It's a system designed to allow the list as a whole to play to coached for strengths, with each player given a role within which to grade themselves against each other. It's honest, it's blunt, and it's utterly merit based.

You achieve, or we watch as the next tier down gets a go. Durdin and Motlop for Fogarty and Martin. Your move, Cory and Jesse. Cerra and Walsh go down; in comes Dow and Hollands, and you watch Voss tell Dow that he's earnt his shot but now he has to hold it against the bloke winning the BNF. Imagine if he does it; that's a Norm Smith kind of a performance waiting to happen.

In 2011, Round 14, Carlton were sitting in 5th. This is what I would generally consider to be the high watermark of Carlton that I've seen; we were about as good as we were going to get. We were at times stingy in defense, and we were obliteratingly good in attack. We had Judd, and Murphy, and Carrots, and Gibbs and Kreuz and we were going to go onto bigger and better things. But in that game, West Coast followed us to what at the time was Etihad and is now Marvel, and in an 8 point game stole that 5th spot from us. It was due to that loss that we went on to play in Perth in the semi, on to being crucified by the umpires and losing by three points despite no Gibbs and no Kreuzer.

This match was a like game: lose, and we go into the final three matches needing to win at least 2 if not all three to make finals. Win and keep winning, and 5th is absolutely available. Carlton under Ratten had as their signature a bit of a soft underbelly; they couldn't win 3 games in a row, and they couldn't deal with the manic pressure that has become the vogue in AFL circles since. That Carlton went to water when subjected to physicality; that Carlton dropped their heads when beaten around the ball.

There is a chance - a real ******* chance - that this version of Carlton has already eclipsed 2011, and proved it last week on Sunday.
Click to expand...
Think it will be very interesting to see the evolution of our game & team come finals.
The effort & system becomes a core tenet that is just a staple- everyone does it & brings it.
I look at Doc & Boyd and see Doc being able to do everything Boyd does but is also a much better mark/spoil, fiercer at the ball & better endurance. Doc wasn’t playing mid with our key mids in the side.
Backline of Weiters, Kemp, Newman, Gov, Saad, Doc is our best line up - they are hard AF, quick, skilled & flexible - they all bring a little something extra as well.
Crippa, Cerra, Walsh are a given
How we line up our ruck determines the rest & where it gets interesting- personally I believe JSOS has to be in the line up so u run TDK & JSOS.
Charlie, Harry, Martin, Mots, Owies are a given
Acres, Cotts & Hollands on the wings.
That leaves 3 spots - Cunners, Kennedy & ? + sub
? being what do we need/value - that could be Cinc, Boyd, Fish, Fog, Durds, Dow, Hew, Ed, Marchbank, Pitto.
Personally if Owies & Mots bring the pressure we can drop a small - replace that with JSOS/Kennedy/Crippa resting forward as a offensive weapon - all 3 will also lock the ball down and put up a good fight 2on1.
Boyd/Cinc/Marchbank give us defensive cover & movement, Fog/Durds forward pressure, Fish could float, Pitto size & tap, Hew/Ed mid defence & Dow centre clearance.
Hell of a problem to have when all fit, think it’s coming down to who’s got form, the match ups & just how the coaches see finals games panning out.
The like for like is kinda out the window & who’s killing it, who we are against & what we deem most important is in.
Soon as we win another it’s probably worth starting a “who’s our finals 22”
 
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