3rd West Australian team VS long term viability of poorer VIC Teams

[Kwality]

what exactly are you suggesting?

that because the stadium is smaller over here, the AFL should buy eagles memberships to make up the difference in lost revenue?

Er, NO.
I am suggesting the new stadium allows the AFL to allocate 3 game seating (or other) to members of footy clubs other than the current 11 game Dockers or Eagles members, no cricket club types, no AFL freeloaders, no Medallion Club equivalents, just the also rans, the riff raff. A Norths supporter gets a seat, a Saints supporter even.
The Melbourne club makes a PROFIT in WA not a loss in Melbourne courtesy of WA fans who go to the game versus a game in Melbourne that loses, loses , ie not enough bums on seats.

 

[AliceCat]

If the kangaroos and the saints are still based in Melbourne in the current form in 20yrs ill be very surprised. Either way by that time WA3 and Tassie will be playing for premiership points!

 

[Kwality]

How would it dud potential members to get 3 game memberships?

Next 5000 full members to move on get replaced by 20000 partial members (3 games doesn't divide easily, so make it 3/3/3/2, with the 2 including the derby).

15,000 more people get to see games live rather than paying money to stay on a wait list that moves slowly (more people also means faster movement). How is that 'dudding' them?

Once the second tier membership is established, the flow goes wait list > partial > full as spots become available.



Such as?


Also, how would games moved to WA allow more games access for WCE members? Surely the (relocated) home team would control access.

AFL/WAFC control the seating to make a profit, considering the Melb clubs 'would not know" a loss until it was pulled from their overdrawn bank account albeit AFL guaranteed.
Eagles waiting listed members (& Dockers equivalents) get priority over current seasons ticket holders.

This is not a profit grab for the Eagles, they are fine, its about games paying for themselves, no bleeding red ink to stadium managers.

 

[Kwality]

A 3rd WA team would have more members , financial clout, sponsorship, than probably 3 to 4 Vic teams.


Disagree there, i think a Northern and North Eastern Suburbs Perth ( north of Sorrento ) out to Ellenbrook has the potential to crack 25/30k of members with relative ease, and not inpinge on the Eagles membership base at all.

A third team in Perth would be stronger than quite a few Vic teams in plenty of areas.

Talk of a West Perth/East Perth combined AFL team will continue.

Are these folk supporters of an AFL team?

 

[Rob]

A 3rd WA team would have more members , financial clout, sponsorship, than probably 3 to 4 Vic teams.

Disagree there, i think a Northern and North Eastern Suburbs Perth ( north of Sorrento ) out to Ellenbrook has the potential to crack 25/30k of members with relative ease, and not inpinge on the Eagles membership base at all.

That's heartland Eagles zone. Why would anyone out there ditch the Eagles and start following a new team?

 

[fabulousphil]

That's heartland Eagles zone. Why would anyone out there ditch the Eagles and start following a new team?

Plenty of people would start following a new WA team, for a start some people who have been on the Eagles waiting list for years, and are quite freankly sick of that, people who could not be bothered to put there name down and not really Eagles fans but just like to go to the footy, people who don't really like the Eagles but live north of the river, a % of the thousands of new WA arrivals willing to give the game a go as there kids play or they have a interest.

etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

 

[fabulousphil]

Are these folk supporters of an AFL team?

Indeed many are.

I am involved with a junior club, have friends whose kids play with other northern suburbs clubs, and the amount of people who come from anywhere but Perth and indeed Australia is staggering.

They have no great attachment to the Eagles, and would attach themselves to a new WA team just as easily, and IMO moreso if they actually could get access to it via membership, which of course ATM is denied many, many thousands of people.

 

[Rob]

Plenty of people would start following a new WA team, for a start some people who have been on the Eagles waiting list for years, and are quite freankly sick of that, people who could not be bothered to put there name down and not really Eagles fans but just like to go to the footy, people who don't really like the Eagles but live north of the river, a % of the thousands of new WA arrivals willing to give the game a go as there kids play or they have a interest.

etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

It's a pretty weak argument. I know people on the Eagles waiting list and they're not going to just start supporting another club. And why would a new arrival be any more likely to follow them?

It's not like opening another McDonalds. Sporting teams are about identity and passion. You can't just shove another club in a random location in Perth and expect people to hang from the rafters. Someone needs to come up with a genuine, workable idea before it would even be considered.

 

[Phoney]

Plenty of people would start following a new WA team, for a start some people who have been on the Eagles waiting list for years, and are quite freankly sick of that

The same thing happened in the 2000's with the Dockers. People couldn't get season tickets to the Eagles so they went to Dockers games instead. The western suburbs are full of families like that.

 

[fabulousphil]

The same thing happened in the 2000's with the Dockers. People couldn't get season tickets to the Eagles so they went to Dockers games instead. The western suburbs are full of families like that.

Tell Rob above , he reckons it just does not happen, IMO conditions are ripe for it to happen again, and BTW the Dockers membership now has a waiting list, i know people who would not get a Dockers membership 3 years ago because only crap seats were left.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Where are they going to get supporters from? It's not a new geographic area like GC or Western Sydney. Is there tens of thousands of people in Perth who don't already follow the Eagles or Dockers?

Splitting metro cities into "regions" doesn't work any more as all clubs play at the same stadium. It's the same in Melbourne now.

Plus of course all expansion needs the blessing of the clubs, who is going to want this to happen? Brisbane and Sydney were against expansion for obvious reasons, and I think the self sufficient Dockers and Eagles would carry considerably more clout than them when it comes to their own backyard.

 

[fabulousphil]

The same thing happened in the 2000's with the Dockers. People couldn't get season tickets to the Eagles so they went to Dockers games instead. The western suburbs are full of families like that.

The vast majority of people in the Northern Suburbs are new arrivals, if they follow the footy, or follow it in the future they don't have the pre concieved allegiances that old WAFL fans do, they will follow a new club, they do not have family ties, historial allegiances to any WA clubs, a new one is just as good as the existing ones.

 

[fabulousphil]

Where are they going to get supporters from? It's not a new geographic area like GC or Western Sydney. Is there tens of thousands of people in Perth who don't already follow the Eagles or Dockers?

Splitting metro cities into "regions" doesn't work any more as all clubs play at the same stadium. It's the same in Melbourne now.

Plus of course all expansion needs the blessing of the clubs, who is going to want this to happen? Brisbane and Sydney were against expansion for obvious reasons, and I think the self sufficient Dockers and Eagles would carry considerably more clout than them when it comes to their own backyard.

In a city of 2 million with waiting lists at both clubs to get a seat, i dont think that will be a problem.

 

[Rob]

Tell Rob above , he reckons it just does not happen, IMO conditions are ripe for it to happen again, and BTW the Dockers membership now has a waiting list, i know people who would not get a Dockers membership 3 years ago because only crap seats were left.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it's not likely to happen with more than a handful of people.

At least if you base the club in the Eastern suburbs then it's likely to have some sort of identity. But a Northern suburbs based team predicated on 'follow us because you can't get a seat at the Eagles' isn't going to get much traction at all.

I'm not idealogically opposed to the idea of a 3rd club, I just find it difficult to see who's going to support it. The idea that all these new arrivals are going to jump on board is the sort of rubbish that Bulldogs fans have been peddling for decades, yet they still have bugger all fans. It just doesn't work like that.

 

[fabulousphil]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it's not likely to happen with more than a handful of people.

At least if you base the club in the Eastern suburbs then it's likely to have some sort of identity. But a Northern suburbs based team predicated on 'follow us because you can't get a seat at the Eagles' isn't going to get much traction at all.

I'm not idealogically opposed to the idea of a 3rd club, I just find it difficult to see who's going to support it. The idea that all these new arrivals are going to jump on board is the sort of rubbish that Bulldogs fans have been peddling for decades, yet they still have bugger all fans. It just doesn't work like that.

I am just a insignificant ant in the sea of humanity that Perth has become, but i can see that a 3rd team in Perth would have significant backing, perhaps the people that moved to the WB area are a different demographic to the people who have moved to Perth, a demographic that loves playing and following sport.

 

[Underdog]

I am just a insignificant ant in the sea of humanity that Perth has become, but i can see that a 3rd team in Perth would have significant backing, perhaps the people that moved to the WB area are a different demographic to the people who have moved to Perth, a demographic that loves playing and following sport.

Tell me about this demographic a little more. What suburbs are you referring to and what basis do you have for suggesting they would dismiss any old allegiances and support a new side?

Most in WA supported the Eagles and when Freo were introduced, those that identified with them joined the FFC and more importantly, those that didn't like the Eagles did too. The 'protest vote' no longer exists in mass numbers. A WA3 club would struggle for a long time before they could get remotely close to the support of a current AFL side.

 

[fabulousphil]

Tell me about this demographic a little more. What suburbs are you referring to and what basis do you have for suggesting they would dismiss any old allegiances and support a new side?

Most in WA supported the Eagles and when Freo were introduced, those that identified with them joined the FFC and more importantly, those that didn't like the Eagles did too. The 'protest vote' no longer exists in mass numbers. A WA3 club would struggle for a long time before they could get remotely close to the support of a current AFL side.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-annual-3rd-team-needed-in-wa-thread.985745

Go for it, take note of Basashis posts, here is a sample below

.........................................................................................

If you are looking at the actual numbers of unsatisfied potential AFL club members, the 3rd WA team is way ahead of Tassie, Canberra and even the Gold Coast and GWS business cases.

At the moment, the market in WA is horribly underdone and it is going to cost us ALL in the long run.

If you look at seats available per 1000 residents per week:Melbourne 85
Adelaide 39
Perth 25

That is the reason why nearly every high school kid in Melbourne has been to the footy.
It is the reason why the majority of Perth high school kids have never been and will never go.
It is the reason why you can go to the footy for 20 bucks in Melbourne.
Currently, it seems likely that fewer than 130,000 DIFFERENT people attend one or more AFL games in Perth each year - almost certainly fewer than 150,000. This is due to member dominance instead of walkup ticketing.

In small markets like Australia, you need a high percentage of the population to be followers - unlike the US where the cities and regions are so populous that you only need a small percentage of followers. They can get away with relatively small stadiums. Adult "followership" is founded on childhood and teenage attendance. WA footy administrators have firmly ditched the idea of childhood and teenage attendance. The implications for the long term are not good.

Consider this New table with our options in bold and Italic (other figures current):

1. Current Melbourne situation = 84 seats / week / 1000 residents
2. WA 80000 seater PLUS 3rd WA team = 70
3. WA 60000 seater PLUS 3rd WA team = 53
4. WA 80000 seater (no extra team) = 47
5. Current Adelaide = 39
6. Subi Stays PLUS 3rd WA team = 38
7. WA 60000 seater (No extra team) = 35
8. Current Perth = 24

(By the way, the plans afoot in Adelaide would push them up the table.)

As you can see, the development of a 60,000 seater does not make a huge difference. As the table shows, in the context of AFL seat availability in the Southern states, the current plan DOES NOT lift us out of last place.

All of the options still leave as a long way behind Melbourne on a PER CAPITA basis. Not only in outright numbers but a LONG way behind PER CAPITA.

Going to the footy at Subi is

• expensive, compared to other states
• inconvenient, as facilities and access are very poor
• involves accepting an uncomfortable seat
• involves accepting poor viewing position from an unacceptably high % of seats

All of these things costs us attendees. If a decent stadium fixed any of those four, then more people would be likely to come. I think the AFL is keenly watching this from a distance and they are worried about the market penetration in WA.

Whichever way you look at it, for a population of 1.7 m and only 2 teams, 60k is not enough. If we had a 60k stadium, West coast would have 50k members sitting on members seats and there wouldn't be enough seats for visitors and walkups. It would just be a simple progression of the current bad situation. Also if all the arguments about needing only 60000 seats per week for 1.7 or 1.8 (or 2.1!) million people are correct... why are those arguments applicable to Perth but not to Adelaide or Melbourne?

If we had the same ratio of service that Adelaide or Melbourne, that would mean having 2 sides and a 190,000 seat stadium!!! Or 3 sides and a 125,000 seat stadium!!!

Whether it is the size of the stadium or the number of teams, something has to happen for the good of footy.

 

[Underdog]

It's not relevant. The suggestion that being unable to attend games alone would make one switch sides is pretty daft. Sure there will be some, but not mass numbers.

 

[fabulousphil]

It's not relevant. The suggestion that being unable to attend games alone would make one switch sides is pretty daft. Sure there will be some, but not mass numbers.

If i could get a family membership that enables my family to sit togther, i dont have to wait 8 years on a list, i think you would find a pretty long list of potential members of a new club at your door changing their allegiance.

Not everyone is a one clubber for life.

You do realise that when your number comes up on the Eagles waiting list they can not even guarantee your family will sit together !.

People in this day and age dont put up with that anymore, not even for a football team.

 

[telsor]

It's not relevant. The suggestion that being unable to attend games alone would make one switch sides is pretty daft. Sure there will be some, but not mass numbers.

That alone wouldn't be enough, but if people could identify with it (preferably more than other clubs), a considerable number would shift.

No idea how you would achieve that (not knowing the WA landscape), but not being able to attend games would certainly help the process.

 

[Underdog]

That's nice, but the AFL are not going to disband a Victorian side and form WA3 on such flimsy reasoning. There's been no factual basis whatsoever to support WA3 having a sufficient supporter base. I'd suggest most believe that their is no physical location nor potential to generate fans to support such a venture.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

In a city of 2 million with waiting lists at both clubs to get a seat, i dont think that will be a problem.

(A) how much will the new stadium alleviate waiting lists?

(B) can we really rely on people switching teams in order to build a membership base?

 

[fabulousphil]

(A) how much will the new stadium alleviate waiting lists?

(B) can we really rely on people switching teams in order to build a membership base?

Only giving MO of course, but WCE have a waiting list of around 10,000 which really equates to around 40,000, as each member on the waiting list can purchase 4 tickets, and i imagine most people would.

The Dockers have a waiting list for decent seats, the new stadium may alleviate this, but at the same time a new stadium may see a rush on all seats.

There is a very large base of new West Australians who dont have a great allegiance to either WA team, quite a number of these people have kids who play the game, or just follow the game on TV, a new 3rd team MAY grab this huge market, ATM these people have no real access to any AFL games.

Pretty hard to follow the game on TV without actually witnessing a AFL live initially.

 

[Underdog]

Many who don't have an allegiance to either WA team have an allegiance to an interstate side, they aren't untapped resources.

Additionally, the high demand is what drives the waiting list, if demand lessens because more seats become available and walk ups are more realistic, then many on the waiting list will just opt for that option rather than a membership.

The suggestion that West Coast will automatically go from selling 36,000 tickets to 76,000 with the introduction of a new stadium is absurd.

Again, you're using flimsy evidence.

 

[fabulousphil]

Many who don't have an allegiance to either WA team have an allegiance to an interstate side, they aren't untapped resources.

Additionally, the high demand is what drives the waiting list, if demand lessens because more seats become available and walk ups are more realistic, then many on the waiting list will just opt for that option rather than a membership.

The suggestion that West Coast will automatically go from selling 36,000 tickets to 76,000 with the introduction of a new stadium is absurd.

Again, you're using flimsy evidence.

Actually they are, because ATM they have no real way to get a club membership, if they want to get a membership and take their kids, a new team is the only answer.

The Eagles already have more members than what they will be allowed to seat at the new stadium, AFAIK it is a 60,000 seat stadium, not a 76,000.

So in effect the Eagles will still have a waiting list at a new stadium.