Expansion AFL to invest $20m into new Gold Coast sports precinct

[Tas]

I don't disagree on that score, I just don't see how there'll ever be an acceptable balance (retention bonus/COLA, zone/draft concessions) to get them on their feet if they're capable of squandering such an enormous foundation in the first place.

The universally-loathed paddlepop lion that only served to alienate their rusted-on base and the recent firing of Voss in a failed gambit for Roos is the tip of the iceberg given the list problems and a seeming failure to engage and retain Queensland corporates.

I think Port is a good recent example of get quality leadership and quality coaches and things can turn around pretty quickly as long as recruitment is good. At the end of the day it is about the supporters really, we don't want clubs to be a basket case and the supporters powerless to do anything about it.

Brisbane said before GC existed that forming them would hurt Brisbane, they relied on support of QLD in general and my understanding was that the AFL effectively vetoed their vote against expansion with the condition that they wouldn't let GC negatively impact the Lions.

If this understanding is in fact in place I'd rather see them step in and change the structure to allow their members to choose their executive and to be given some support to make sure they can afford to hire the best people to run the club and can afford to get the best coaching staff available, not sure if Leppa is or isn't, but my concern is if we just give it 3, 4 or 5 years to see if they get to a critical position the cure will be a lot more painful for everyone else than the prevention now.

 

[Roylion]

The AFL already spoonfed them the Fitzroy merger

14 of the 16 clubs in the competition in 1996 made that decision.

with all the assorted perks (Jonathan Brown's father-son rights atop all the cash and the foothold in Melbourne)

The merger conditions (including the father son rule) were endorsed by all the clubs and available to all clubs before any merger took place.

Adelaide, Brisbane Bears, Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn, North Melbourne, Richmond, St Kilda and the Western Bulldogs all made approaches to merge with Fitzroy in 1996 because of the "assorted perks".

Even the AFL's plan to establish the "Port Power Lions" in SA, would have received father-son rights, cash and a Melbourne support base.

Had Melbourne and Hawthorn for example merged they would have won the right to have 44 players (open slather on both lists), a $300,000 salary cap extension, full participation in the draft and trading and the father-son rule from BOTH clubs.

Instead of receiving just eight Fitzroy players, Port Adelaide had to make do with 29 zone selections in that year. They were Scott Bassett, Rhett Biglands, Peter Burgoyne, Tom Carr, Stephen Carter, Mark Conway, Jarrod Cotton, Stephen Daniels, Stuart Dew, Donald Dickie, Nathan Eagleton, Paul Evans, Nigel Fiegert, Fabian Francis, Josh Francou, Scott Freeborn,Tom Harley, Roger James, Brendon Lade, Jake Lynch, Scott Mathews, Darren Meade, Andrew Osborn, Darryl Poole, Damian Squire, Nathan Steinberner, Warren Tredrea, Michael Wilson and Jonathon Yerbury.

That year Port Adelaide also recruited Stephen Paxman, Matthew Primus and John Rombotis from Fitzroy.

and a salary cap bonus that saw them 'retain' Blake Caracella from premiership rival Essendon in much the same way Sydney's COLA nabbed them Buddy.

Don't forget to mention that Des Headland and Craig Bolton left the Lions at the end of 2002. Caracella arrived for the 2003 premiership.

Let's also not forget that Blake Caracella arrived at Brisbane via a three way trade involving former No. 1 draft pick and premiership player, Des Headland going to Fremantle and Adam McPhee going to Essendon. A year later in 2004, McPhee won All-Australian selection and Essendon's Best and Fairest.

 

[tribey]

I'm aware. I wasn't claiming the merger perks were unfair, I was stating they were an almighty launching pad for the years to come, that along with the flags and the right management should've translated into a boon for decades to come.

Instead of receiving just eight Fitzroy players, Port Adelaide had to make do with 29 zone selections in that year. They were Scott Bassett, Rhett Biglands, Peter Burgoyne, Tom Carr, Stephen Carter, Mark Conway, Jarrod Cotton, Stephen Daniels, Stuart Dew, Donald Dickie, Nathan Eagleton, Paul Evans, Nigel Fiegert, Fabian Francis, Josh Francou, Scott Freeborn,Tom Harley, Roger James, Brendon Lade, Jake Lynch, Scott Mathews, Darren Meade, Andrew Osborn, Darryl Poole, Damian Squire, Nathan Steinberner, Warren Tredrea, Michael Wilson and Jonathon Yerbury.

That year Port Adelaide also recruited Stephen Paxman, Matthew Primus and John Rombotis from Fitzroy.

What are you suggesting?

Don't forget to mention that Des Headland and Craig Bolton left the Lions at the end of 2002. Caracella arrived for the 2003 premiership.

Let's also not forget that Blake Caracella arrived at Brisbane via a three way trade involving former No. 1 draft pick and premiership player, Des Headland going to Fremantle and Adam McPhee going to Essendon. A year later in 2004, McPhee won All-Australian selection and Essendon's Best and Fairest.

Capwise, Caracella was squeezed out of Essendon and was well ahead of a young Headland and ascendant McPhee. That extra room was invaluable.

 

[Roylion]

I wasn't claiming the merger perks were unfair,

No. They weren't unfair. Rather they were to address the shoddy way the Bears were set up in the first place.

I was stating they were an almighty launching pad for the years to come, that along with the flags and the right management should've translated into a boon for decades to come.

Brisbane is located in a non-football state, where unless there is success, much of the public will not support the club. The Lions have found it very difficult to rebuild, given that situation, and the establishment of the Gold Coast in 2011, significantly diluting their existing supporter base in Queensland. It was the Brisbane Lions that had developed football in Queensland, only to see much of it taken away, partly through no fault of their own.

What are you suggesting?

That given the way the Bears were set up in 1987, it's a bit rich for a Port Adelaide supporter, given their own concessions in 1997 and with his own club located in a football state, to claim moral superiority over AFL concessions granted to the Bears / Lions, .

 

[Roylion]

Capwise, Caracella was squeezed out of Essendon and was well ahead of a young Headland and ascendant McPhee. That extra room was invaluable.

And Brisbane could afford him on their list because Des Headland (a 21 -22 yo premiership player and former No. 1 draft pick) and Craig Bolton left. Yes they had a concession to help. So they should have. Only 10% of their list was from Queensland and they were already paying over the odds to retain interstate players. Of which they far more of than any other club. Bar Sydney.

 

[Matchu]

Brisbane said before GC existed that forming them would hurt Brisbane, they relied on support of QLD in general and my understanding was that the AFL effectively vetoed their vote against expansion with the condition that they wouldn't let GC negatively impact the Lions.

I think it goes deeper than that. The Gold Coast area is undoubtedly the strongest part of Queensland when it comes to producing AFL players. Half of the Queenslanders on the Lions' current list are from the Gold Coast and the club hasn't been able to recruit them since 2010. Some of their best players hail from the Gold Coast like Dayne Zorko or Daniel Merrett but I think the last really good player Brisbane produced was Michael Voss/Jason Akermanis and that was over 20 years ago. The only reason the percentage of Gold Coasters playing for the Lions isn't higher is because Brisbane recruited four players from their own zone at the end of last year.

The Lions weren't happy when they were unable to zone pick Nick Riewoldt back in 2000 but that's what happens when you so blatantly rort a system like the Swans did with the COLA. The point I'm trying to make here is that the Lions have heavily relied on the Gold Coast for a long time and knew that the creation of the Suns would really hurt them in terms of losing supporters and not being able to regularly recruit Queenslanders that can make it in the AFL.

 

[Roylion]

The Lions weren't happy when they were unable to zone pick Nick Riewoldt back in 2000 but that's what happens when you so blatantly rort a system like the Swans did with the COLA.

Blatantly rort the system? Excluding the rookie system, the Brisbane Bears / Brisbane Lions made a total of 10 zone selections over 19 years. Only one zone selection was made after 1997. Fremantle and Port Adelaide made more zone selections in one year. And they were both in football states.

 

[Matchu]

Blatantly rort the system? Excluding the rookie system, the Brisbane Bears / Brisbane Lions made a total of 10 zone selections over 19 years. Only one zone selection was made after 1997. Fremantle and Port Adelaide made more zone selections in one year. And they were both in football states.

Steven Lawrence, son of St Kilda legend Barry Lawrence, was recruited to the Bears by getting his father to sit on the bench in one match for the Southport Sharks nearly 20 years after he had retired from footy. If that's not a rort, I don't know what is. I'm not sure of the exact dates but the Gold Coast was removed from their zone not long after. It cost the club Nick Riewoldt so retrospectively you could say karma came back and got the Lions.

 

[Modified Dog]

So the Gold Coast Suns (meaning the AFL) will have to stump up $20 million in cash for this redevelopment

That's okay. Just raise the MCG ticket prices. I'm sure the Hawthorn fans here in Victoria will be happy to pay the AFL scalpers an extra $45 for an all-ticketed game that wasn't even close to selling out.

We've got bottomless pockets. Just send us the bill, Andy. We'll be happy to take care of it.

 

[Matchu]

Roylion, from the Southport Sharks website:

Exploiting a loophole in the AFL’s father-son recruiting rules, former St Kilda star Barry Lawrence was officially listed by Southport for a QAFL round-20 match against Mayne in 1993.

Lawrence was aged 47 at the time – so the Sharks fittingly listed him as No.47 on the day’s team sheet for the final home-and-away match.

Ironically, his place in Southport’s 22 was at the expense of son Steven, then a hugely promising 17-year-old destined for the AFL.

Under the AFL’s father-son drafting laws of the day, if a youngster’s dad had played in the QAFL then the son would be eligible to be drafted by the Brisbane Bears.

Lawrence Snr never actually took the field – the Sharks played a man short – but the fact he had been registered by the Sharks, then listed in a senior team, made young Steve eligible to be drafted by either Brisbane or St Kilda.

Lawrence Jnr subsequently played several seasons of AFL at the Gabba before being traded to St Kilda.

 

[Roylion]

Steven Lawrence, son of St Kilda legend Barry Lawrence, was recruited to the Bears by getting his father to sit on the bench in one match for the Southport Sharks nearly 20 years after he had retired from footy. If that's not a rort, I don't know what is.

So was Lawrence a zone selection, or a father-son selection? Steven Lawrence played for the Southport Sharks Juniors and Seniors, but still wasn't eligible for zone selection by the Bears.

I'm not sure of the exact dates but the Gold Coast was removed from their zone not long after. It cost the club Nick Riewoldt so retrospectively you could say karma came back and got the Lions.

Lawrence was selected in 1993, one year before Jason Akermanis in 1994, two years before Danny Dickfos and Brett Voss and seven years before Jamie Charman in 2000. I don't think the recruiting of Steven Lawrence specifically cost Brisbane Nick Riewoldt.

Before it was removed, under the 'Developing Markets Rule', put in place by the AFL commission, Brisbane was allowed to take one local player living within a 50km zone of Brisbane’s GPO as a second round draft choice.

 

[Matchu]

So was Lawrence a zone selection, or a father-son selection? Steven Lawrence played for the Southport Sharks Juniors and Seniors, but still wasn't eligible for zone selection by the Bears.

From what I've been able to find, he went as a zone selection prior to the draft but I assumed the reason they put his father on the bench for Southport was so St Kilda didn't have exclusive rights to Steven via the father-son rule. I could be wrong with that assumption but it certainly makes sense in my mind. Can anyone confirm or deny whether a father-son pick overrides a zone selection?

Lawrence was selected in 1993, one year before Jason Akermanis in 1994, two years before Danny Dickfos and Brett Voss and seven years before Jamie Charman in 2000. I don't think the recruiting of Steven Lawrence specifically cost Brisbane Nick Riewoldt.

Before it was removed, under the 'Developing Markets Rule', put in place by the AFL commission, Brisbane was allowed to take one local player living within a 50km zone of Brisbane’s GPO as a second round draft choice.

It was the fact that they were no longer able to exclusively recruit from Southport that cost them Nick Riewoldt. They had no worries zoning other Southport players like Marcus Ashcroft prior to the Lawerence rort but I'm 99% sure Steven Lawrence was the last Southport player to be zoned to the Bears. If I'm right that Steven Lawrence was the last player to be zoned to the Bears from Southport then I can only assume the manner in which he was recruited to the Bears is the reason Southport was no longer included in the Bears zone. Do you know when they introduced the 50km zone for Brisbane? Because if it was in 1993/1994 then that virtually spells it out. If you can prove me wrong then by all means go ahead...

 

[jim boy]

The Lions weren't happy when they were unable to zone pick Nick Riewoldt back in 2000 but that's what happens when you so blatantly rort a system like the Swans did with the COLA.

I wouldn't say they rorted the system - that was what they were meant to do do. Sharples (Lions chairman) on the ABC the other day said that their "premierships were assisted by the AFL through priority picks and salary cap concessions".

That's just the way the AFL rolls.

 

[Lach72]

That's nice. I suppose w can expect an increase on the 1 million the AFL have offered us for our facility?

 

[BallaratBulldog]

Can we have 30m as well and make Whitten Oval VFL to AFL standard?

 

[tribey]

No. They weren't unfair. Rather they were to address the shoddy way the Bears were set up in the first place.

Picking up Nathan Buckley, Michael Voss and Jason Akermanis as zone selections well after the Bears were formed also served this end.

Brisbane is located in a non-football state, where unless there is success, much of the public will not support the club. The Lions have found it very difficult to rebuild, given that situation, and the establishment of the Gold Coast in 2011, significantly diluting their existing supporter base in Queensland. It was the Brisbane Lions that had developed football in Queensland, only to see much of it taken away, partly through no fault of their own.

But this speaks to the problem you initially pulled me up on, doesn't it? Surely there was an onus on the Lions hierarchy of the past decade to use the foundation of the Lions merger and the subsequent premierships to engage fans and corporates on a generational basis? It had 20+ years as the only AFL team in the state and had reached and held the pinnacle of the national game. If those conditions aren't favourable to establish long term strength and viability without significant ongoing welfare, will there ever be?

That given the way the Bears were set up in 1987, it's a bit rich for a Port Adelaide supporter, given their own concessions in 1997 and with his own club located in a football state, to claim moral superiority over AFL concessions granted to the Bears / Lions, .

We had spent the past few decades losing our best and brightest talents for a pittance. Craig Bradley, Gavin Wanganeen, Nathan Buckley and Andrew McLeod to name a few. And we had to pay a $4,000,000 licence fee for the privilege of joining and untold behind-the-scenes legal and consultancy costs. And the SANFL took 80% of our profits. And we had the worst stadium deal in the country. And the self-styled Team For All South Australians won back to back flags in our first two years in the comp. Apart from that, it was all smooth sailing.

 

[Smiling Buddha]

Earlier in the thread there was discussion about Brisbane's current situation.

If you haven't lived in QLD, it is probably hard for a Victorian to appreciate how different the sport support culture is up here. It is QLD first, bandwagon second, third and fourth, club loyalty a distant fifth.

Speak with a junior footy club president up here and they'll tell you how their number swelled in the first half of last decade and have dropped right back down in the years following, particularly as the Lions became a basketcase.

If you are a $-driven AFL exec this is good news, as it shows there is latent support here for Aussie Rules just so long as the Lions are doing well. Throw some more concessions their way and everything will be just fine.

If on the other hand you are a fan of footy and like to see the game at the top level administered fairly, this is woeful news, because it is obvious what is going to happen sooner rather than later.

Some time soon...

A new independent study by a consulting firm (with links to members of the AFL Commission) has found that player retention is significantly more difficult for clubs in Queensland and NSW, and has recommended an increased TPP allowance for clubs in these areas until retention issues are rectified. In response to these findings, AFL CEO Gilligan McLachlan has announced a 10% retention allowance for clubs in those states effective immediately. 'It is important that we maintain a fair and equitable competition and as this report has found, the best way to do that is to assist disadvantaged clubs retain players through a carefully structured retention mechanism', McLachlan told reporters after alighting from his late-model Mercedes.

 

[Matchu]

Smiling Buddha, do you think if the Gold Coast Suns were to taste premiership glory in the next 5 years, it would have a similar impact on junior participation? I'm inclined to say no because QLDers seem to favour a Brisbane team over anywhere else. Not to mention the Lions fans won't like it so that's probably over half of your AFL fan base in QLD right there.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Move the Lions to Melbourne

I think Brunswick St is free

 

[flamethrower]

Hopefully they will spend some of the money on building some car parks along Nerang-Broadbeach Road, as well as extending the new light rail. Just spent a week on the Gold Coast and went to the Suns Hawks game. The free shuttle bus system is ok for tiny crowds, but if the AFL and the Suns hope to build average attendances close to 30K, they will be grossly inadequate.

 

[fabulousphil]

Smiling Buddha, do you think if the Gold Coast Suns were to taste premiership glory in the next 5 years, it would have a similar impact on junior participation? I'm inclined to say no because QLDers seem to favour a Brisbane team over anywhere else. Not to mention the Lions fans won't like it so that's probably over half of your AFL fan base in QLD right there.

http://www.foxsportspulse.com/assoc_page.cgi?c=1-3928-0-0-0&a=COMPS

Brisbane footy has been growing at senior and junior ranks for quite a number of years, Brisbane juniors are in a reasonably healthy state.

For Ex, you can follow the age groups all the way back to 2009 from the link.

 

[Rob]

Brisbane received plenty they didn't cash in when they were successful

Yes they did. They were one of the strongest clubs in the league financially 10 years ago. Millions in the bank, no debt.

They wasted it.

 

[fabulousphil]

Yes they did. They were one of the strongest clubs in the league financially 10 years ago. Millions in the bank, no debt.

They wasted it.

From all accounts they were, and around that time the AFL probably corrctly surmised that the State cold handle another team, i am not sure how they stuffed it all up, but they did, the wheels have been set in motion to clean up the mess, but it all takes time, and even if they were still well off financially the playing list is not that great.

Lions fans would hope the local academy really starts to pay off.

 

[EasternTiger]

By way of contrast, I know they are successful and I'm certain I caught portions of their first flag, but apart from Billy Slater ( assuming he still plays for them) I couldn't tell you a single topical thing about the Melbourne Storm apart from the fact they once got busted for cheating the cap.

Apparently there was/is another rugby team in town, or that the soccer? I am certain the exact opposite is true in Queensland. The ahhh Brissie Suns, ey?

I've been saying it since fitzroy folded. Expanding into markets where there is no demand for your product is nonsense and a waste of money. The AFL could launch a new team in Timbuktu, and I'm certain it would be an on field success as long as they continue to pour money into it. Not much point if none of the yocals are watching.

 

[BEEG]

Yes they did. They were one of the strongest clubs in the league financially 10 years ago. Millions in the bank, no debt.

They wasted it.

Yep now they just complain on what GC receive so hard done by