News AFL to overhaul the draft, discuss changes to Academy and FS bid matching

[Lore]

 

[Jirik13]

They're about to get a heap of guys through there lol

Max 1 first round pick academy match.

 

[FootyLad0]

Max 1 first round pick academy match.

Over the next few years was what i was implying.

 

[Jirik13]

Over the next few years was what i was implying.

A lot of people forget this rule. I think it's a good rule. I would expand it - no match first round bid when top 4 and include F/S (will not happen).

 

[Sphynx]

Because even if those players in the academy would have been in the open draft (assuming they would have nominated), Sydney would have had access to one of them with reaching half a round or more. Brisbane about the same. Still a lack of access to home state talent if there wasn't bidding.

As I've said on repeat, if the Eagles or whichever team wants to spend 30 years building their list from 90% interstate players with almost zero access to home state talent in the first two rounds, I'm happy for them to have an academy in an area where footy is the second or third preference for sport and there are no talent programs or pathways.

Lets not get over dramatic.

There's dozens examples of the Northern States overlooking their own talent when available.

Sydney had 3 picks in the top 8 in 1998 and drafted Victorian Jude Bolton and Crow Eaters Nick Fosdike and Ryan Fitzgerald instead of home grown Sydney Metro products (rare as hens teeth at that point) in Mark McVeigh and Lenny Hayes, they had 3 picks before them and didn't take them....

If you want to go back further, they traded away 18 year old country NSW prospects John Longmire and Wayne Carey....

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Lets not get over dramatic.

There's dozens examples of the Northern States overlooking their own talent when available.

Sydney had 3 picks in the top 8 in 1998 and drafted Victorian Jude Bolton and Crow Eaters Nick Fosdike and Ryan Fitzgerald instead of home grown Sydney Metro products (rare as hens teeth at that point) in Mark McVeigh and Lenny Hayes, they had 3 picks before them and didn't take them....

If you want to go back further, they traded away 18 year old country NSW prospects John Longmire and Wayne Carey....

The 20th century era is hardly relevant given the massive changes in how talent is developed and identified over the last 25 years. I will defend Sydney in saying that they were pretty good at listing somewhat dud NSW players in a period of time thorough the mid 2000's where the growth in quality of talent development through the SANFL, WAFL and TAC cup outpaced NSW, such as the NSW scholarship program.

 

[Sphynx]

The 20th century era is hardly relevant given the massive changes in how talent is developed and identified over the last 25 years. I will defend Sydney in saying that they were pretty good at listing somewhat dud NSW players in a period of time thorough the mid 2000's where the growth in quality of talent development through the SANFL, WAFL and TAC cup outpaced NSW, such as the NSW scholarship program.

OK, it was that poster that referred to the last 30 years, not me....

If you want to talk about recent history, it should be commenced with the current strength of the Allies.

 

[.Shotties.]

Lets not get over dramatic.

There's dozens examples of the Northern States overlooking their own talent when available.

Sydney had 3 picks in the top 8 in 1998 and drafted Victorian Jude Bolton and Crow Eaters Nick Fosdike and Ryan Fitzgerald instead of home grown Sydney Metro products (rare as hens teeth at that point) in Mark McVeigh and Lenny Hayes, they had 3 picks before them and didn't take them....

If you want to go back further, they traded away 18 year old country NSW prospects John Longmire and Wayne Carey....

Okay, that's two. One of which was when the club was so broke we didn't have the money for scouts in our recruiting zones. Only about 22 more examples needed if you want to get to "Dozens"

Even if we take those examples, that still doesn't move the needle in team make up of home state vs. interstate players.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

OK, it was that poster that referred to the last 30 years, not me....

If you want to talk about recent history, it should be commenced with the current strength of the Allies.

Which is obviously as a direct result of the fact that the Academies are run in an excellent manner.

I can spin the facts a million ways but if you actually look at the history of the draft, very few NSW players were considered first- or second-round prospects, despite attempts at initiatives such as the NSW scholarship program, throughout the course of the 2000's.

Jarrad McVeigh was drafted with pick 5 in 2002. Only three players from NSW were taken in the 2003 and 2004 drafts, two end-of-draft rookies to Sydney (I'm not sure if Sydney genuinely recruited these players in an open draft manner or added them to their list through some sort of zone system, but the point still remains). and one end-of-national draft to Richmond. 0 AFL games between the three of them. Hence the NSW scholarship program being introduced in 2005.

Until GWS came into the league and then were able to directly list players zonally and then the academies were introduced, there were literally only two NSW/ACT players that were drafted above the end-of-the-draft in the national draft - Dylan Addison P27 2005 and Jason Tutt P31 2009. I also believe there were a few NSW Scholarship players that were rated roughly at this level (Taylor Walker, but others like Tom Young at Collingwood, though impossible to determine), but it wasn't a large number of players.

It wasn't as if your average under 12 player in NSW at the time was less talented than the equivalent in other states, once adjusting for the overall player base - the law of averages suggests a couple of dozen of NSW players should have been drafted among the 300 or so players who were in the top 30-40 draft-age players per year over this eight year window.

This means that NSW teenagers were falling behind their peers in development, it was unfair that a talented NSW junior was not getting a fair crack at developing a professional career, and the underlying structures had to change.

This obviously hindered the Swans who would prefer to select as many Sydney based players as possible (while obviously being allowed to make balanced opitions about this non-NSW teenager than that NSW teenager, even if the NSW teenager was more appealing as a potential draftee for go home reasons).

The TAC Cup was maturing throughout the course of the 90's and 2000's and by the mid 2000's was humming along as a high-quality way of taking talented teenagers and translating them into AFL-ready footballers, hence the constant references to the "Calder Cannons footy factory" and "the Geelong Falcons footy factory". On the other hand if you were a 16 year old in 2002 in Sydney your next 2 years would look very grim as all you could do was essentially play poor-quality local footy and a small handful of poorly-resourced Division 2 nationals games.

I'm not even saying that the extent of the extent of the draft concessions should be as strong as they are now, or that the NSW system, producing more players than they used to, should not be retooled, or even that the academies themselves should be linked to clubs (though benefitting the growth of fandom in the region, is ultimately perverse in the fairness of the league, no doubt). Just that you can't pretend that the above factors weren't considered and needed to be addressed over the 21st century (or the last 30 years as a throwaway reference to the identical phenomena that you quoted initially).

All of this is to say that you can't point to the success of the Allies etc. as it being obvious that they're gaining too much access to underlying talent, simply because that talent would have also been obvious in the mid 2000's. Rather, the logical conclusion is that the 2000's way of developing northern talent was far worse than those in the southern states, but in contrast, the modern system is arguably even better than the way of doing it in the southern states (because perhaps the clubs themselves gaining access to the players earlier is a benefit)

 

[briztoon]

Tis strange how Brisbane have gotten nothing out of their academy compared to Sydney. Do you know if it’s just never been prioritised / run well or just potluck?

I can only go on what I have been told and read over a few years. I will not be mentioning who told me what.

From what I've been told, for many years our academy was largely in name only, and was as much a money making exercise, as it was about developing talent. As one person said, "any kid that succeeded was despite the academy's involvement, not due to the academy's involvement", or words to that effect.

It's a well known story that our academy overlooked Andrews, and didn't want him, and that his club coach begged the academy to include him in his top age year.

For many years there's been an adversarial relationship between the QAFL clubs and the academy, when it comes to Colts and losing kids to the academy. More than a few times I have heard that the academy doesn't provide any special or extra training beyond what the kids receive from their clubs.


Some time in the last two or three years, there's been a change and restructure at our academy. What and how I can not say, because our club treats the academy as secret squirrel stuff. Unless you are involved with the academy, there's next to no chance of finding out anything.


As FootyLad0 mentioned, we appear to have a bit of talent coming through our academy, starting with this years draft. I'm not saying there's a lot of high end talent, just that we appear to have kids who might be genuine draft chances, and we're talking 3 or 4 per draft

 

[briztoon]

OK, it was that poster that referred to the last 30 years, not me....

If you want to talk about recent history, it should be commenced with the current strength of the Allies.

The most recent Allies team at last years draft, 4 of the first 6 allies kids drafted, weren't from academy teams. 2 were from Tassie, and the other 2 were from the Riverina and played in Vics Talent League for the Murray Bushrangers.

There were 10 Allies kids drafted in the first round, 5 were academy kids and 5 were NOT academy kids. Another 3 Allies kids were drafted in later rounds, but only 1 of those kids was an academy tied kid.

 

[BloodySwan]

The most recent Allies team at last years draft, 4 of the first 6 allies kids drafted, weren't from academy teams. 2 were from Tassie, and the other 2 were from the Riverina and played in Vics Talent League for the Murray Bushrangers.

There were 10 Allies kids drafted in the first round, 5 were academy kids and 5 were NOT academy kids. Another 3 Allies kids were drafted in later rounds, but only 1 of those kids was an academy tied kid.

Allies players come from 3 states and 2 territories.

Also going 4 games undefeated is great but not the first time it's happened.

Academies aren't smashing the Coates league, just about midtable.

Hopefully we get to a point where NSW & QLD are strong enough where they have their own teams in the national championships. You could easily go
NSW, TAS & ACT 1 team
QLD & NT 1 team

 

[Colonial]

Allies players come from 3 states and 2 territories.

Also going 4 games undefeated is great but not the first time it's happened.

Academies aren't smashing the Coates league, just about midtable.

Hopefully we get to a point where NSW & QLD are strong enough where they have their own teams in the national championships. You could easily go
NSW, TAS & ACT 1 team
QLD & NT 1 team

Hopefully it ends up NSW/ACT 1 team.

 

[BloodySwan]

Hopefully it ends up NSW/ACT 1 team.

That would be the ideal situation. Just wondering if Tas will ever be strong enough to have their own team.

Would you have them join Vic Country? Or do you fear they wouldn't get enough representation?

 

[BloodySwan]

QLD & NSW make up half the countries population. They should have a lot more representation at AFL level.

The academies will be dissolved when you see too many players popping up, but it's not there today. Adjust the points, no real reason to do much else. Make it too restrictive and the academies will collapse once clubs pull all efforts out of it.

 

[Colonial]

That would be the ideal situation. Just wondering if Tas will ever be strong enough to have their own team.

Would you have them join Vic Country? Or do you fear they wouldn't get enough representation?

Hopefully they will end up standing on their own

 

[citizen-erased]

QLD & NSW make up half the countries population. They should have a lot more representation at AFL level.

The academies will be dissolved when you see too many players popping up, but it's not there today. Adjust the points, no real reason to do much else. Make it too restrictive and the academies will collapse once clubs pull all efforts out of it.

game needs to grow more first.
still challenges in it being the go to sport, esp in NSW.

half my team at work are based in NSW. They're 23-32yo age range and none follow AFL.
Its a bit of an eye opener for a melb based Vic on the road ahead.

and a key reason im ok with the NSW/QLD academies.
NGA for vic clubs is a bit of a s**t show though. Still cant get over JUH & MacKenzie.

 

[BloodySwan]

game needs to grow more first.
still challenges in it being the go to sport, esp in NSW.

half my team at work are based in NSW. They're 23-32yo age range and none follow AFL.
Its a bit of an eye opener for a melb based Vic on the road ahead.

and a key reason im ok with the NSW/QLD academies.
NGA for vic clubs is a bit of a s**t show though. Still cant get over JUH & MacKenzie.

Yeah, it's very rare to find another AFL fan. I cling onto them like crazy

 

[bluespooner]

Okay, that's two. One of which was when the club was so broke we didn't have the money for scouts in our recruiting zones. Only about 22 more examples needed if you want to get to "Dozens"

Even if we take those examples, that still doesn't move the needle in team make up of home state vs. interstate players.

The swans had access to 3 players that were in Hawthorn's 2014 GF winning side in Luke Breust, Matt Suckling and Isaac Smith. Albeit, Smith being drafted before the swans had a selection in the 2010 draft he went only one or two picks higher than Jed Lamb and if the swans had wanted to pick a player from NSW they could have done a deal to move higher in the draft order.

 

[Ehswan]

The swans had access to 3 players that were in Hawthorn's 2014 GF winning side in Luke Breust, Matt Suckling and Isaac Smith. Albeit, Smith being drafted before the swans had a selection in the 2010 draft he went only one or two picks higher than Jed Lamb and if the swans had wanted to pick a player from NSW they could have done a deal to move higher in the draft order.

Luke Bruest was a miss,.
Matt Suckling, not much of a miss.
Draft pick swapping only came in , in 2018 so Isaac Smith was out of reach.

 

[.Shotties.]

The swans had access to 3 players that were in Hawthorn's 2014 GF winning side in Luke Breust, Matt Suckling and Isaac Smith. Albeit, Smith being drafted before the swans had a selection in the 2010 draft he went only one or two picks higher than Jed Lamb and if the swans had wanted to pick a player from NSW they could have done a deal to move higher in the draft order.

Yeah, as I've said to you before "The Swans could have picked NSW players if they'd taken them in their draft years when no club thought they were draftable or given up draft capital to pick a NSW player who'd been in Victoria for years" isn't quite the slam dunk you think it is.

Anyway, assuming all we're actually available and reasonable picks for the Swans, that makes five.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

The swans had access to 3 players that were in Hawthorn's 2014 GF winning side in Luke Breust, Matt Suckling and Isaac Smith. Albeit, Smith being drafted before the swans had a selection in the 2010 draft he went only one or two picks higher than Jed Lamb and if the swans had wanted to pick a player from NSW they could have done a deal to move higher in the draft order.

One mature age and two rookie listed players. The Swans are allowed to complain about the general go-home factor while also not individually rating two Riverina-based players that 15 other teams rated so little too that they passed over them numerous times.

It's not as if Sydney didn't recruit NSW players that made zero impact. Funny how you are not referencing Dylan McNeil, for example.

 

[loki04]

Keep the father son it is unique and a nice tradition and in time all clubs will be on a level playing field.
Although the arbitrary 100 game rule is a bit dumb we should look at other ways to qualify but again ensure they don’t create an unfair advantage.
Keep the academies full stop as developmental pathways. allow priority matching only for expansion sides until a point where it is determined they are established and competitive.

It should be 100 games or played in a premiership team auto qualifying.

Luke Ball tried to get the rule changed when he retired as he wanted his boys to play for the club he won a flag at.

 

[sr36]

Yeah, as I've said to you before "The Swans could have picked NSW players if they'd taken them in their draft years when no club thought they were draftable or given up draft capital to pick a NSW player who'd been in Victoria for years" isn't quite the slam dunk you think it is.

Anyway, assuming all we're actually available and reasonable picks for the Swans, that makes five.

I'm not sure what your obsession is with home grown. Last I checked Chad Warners goals against us counted for Sydney and not WCE...It's not like Sydney have had a significant retention issue in recent times - when they did have COLA - they used it for poaching and not retention...

 

[loki04]

The duality of the conversations on Bigfooty is amazing. Find me anywhere else where someone outside of Sydney fans would strongly argue that Heeney is an A grader.

Heeney 100% an a grade talent.

 

[.Shotties.]

I'm not sure what your obsession is with home grown.

We're discussing the academies. One of the key themes here is access to good quality talent from the city the teams are in.

when they did have COLA - they used it for poaching and not retention...

Snore. Bigfooty conspiracy theories about underpaying a whole list 10% to create a warfund. You can't honestly believe it.

Heeney 100% an a grade talent.

He's certainly come through this year, hasn't he.