Opinion Butcher

[Magpiespower]

Not to make light of yesterday's, well, to be honest, I'm not sure what you'd call it besides just not wanting to be out there, but it did remind me of the tennis breakdown scene from The Royal Tenenbaums...

 

[Powerstufff]

... it did remind me of the tennis breakdown scene from The Royal Tenenbaums...

Nailed it!

 

[Eddie Dingle]

I booed Adam Goodes last night.

Because I'm frustrated about Butch.

 

[Killer Power]

We all want Butch to come good but at the moment there's a whiff of Ian Baker-Finch about his game.

Ian Baker-Finch from Wikipedia

Ian Baker-Finch from Wikipedia

I'm sure IBF saw a sports psychologist, I'm sure he practised like a madman. Hopefully Butch can beat that inner demon.

This. So much this. I called it last year in here somewhere. Am a huge golf fan and watched the disintegration of IBF. It was a train wreck. Went through similar with my own game with chipping yips. Your subconcious takes over and you make involuntary muscle movements and the harder you try the worse it can get. I ended up chucking in playing competitively because of it. Can only imagine how much more pressure you would put on yourself if your career was on the line. Butch is in a dark place and putting increasing pressure on him will only make it worse. He is rock bottom and they should just tell him to forget AFL for this season, play it out in the SANFL and hopefully win a premiership. Reset in the off season and then start fresh for 2015. His personal welfare needs to be the focus right now.

 

[Portia]

Maybe Butch has off field issues of some kind

 

[Trewth]

I don't think it's fair to postulate about John's mental health based on the way he plays football. Depression is too serious of an issue to assume it on people for mine. There are possibly hundreds of reasons for his poor playing, one of them possibly being that he just isn't very good at football.

 

[Portia]

we postulate that players are carrying injuries all the time and its no big deal. i'm not saying this is butch's problem, i have no idea, but making mental health an unmentionable contributes to isolating people with mental health issues


postulating depression is no different to suggesting fitness is the issue. we have as little info to support either hypothesis

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Depression is not the only form of mental health issue. He really does appear to have clinical anxiety when it comes to taking a set shot for goal. Like people have what others consider an irrational fear of heights, open spaces, spiders, whatever. It's terrible watching his mental disintegration.

Maybe a move down back to allow the ball to come to him and keep him away from the front end of goals would at least divert him away from the source of his anxiety and help his overall game.

 

[Trewth]

we postulate that players are carrying injuries all the time and its no big deal. i'm not saying this is butch's problem, i have no idea, but making mental health an unmentionable contributes to isolating people with mental health issues


postulating depression is no different to suggesting fitness is the issue. we have as little info to support either hypothesis

This is an open forum you can postulate about what you like. As I am someone who is very familiar with mental illness I personally just don't think it's very fair. There's a part of me that wishes things like depression and the like were as simple as OP or plantar fasciitis.

Just adding my perspective. Play on!

 

[Trewth]

Occam's razor would suggest that he isn't very good. I'm going with that.

 

[Sneeky]

With Hitchy hanging up the boots next year and possibly Heath??(Rumour), that's butch's two housemates not playing. I wonder if this will have any implications on what happens in the future

 

[scottjr]

With Hitchy hanging up the boots next year and possibly Heath??(Rumour), that's butch's two housemates not playing. I wonder if this will have any implications on what happens in the future

Lycett gets a house to himself.

 

[FishingRick04]

Once again unless he wants to leave there is no point trading.

As supporters let's support him to succeed as Portia said we don't know what's going on.

All I know he was the first non performing player sprinting to the door via the locker room to see the boys sing the song for Dom.

To me his passion for his team is there.

 

[itisnt2hard]

Send him to me. I"LL get him going.

 

[Portia]

Once again unless he wants to leave there is no point trading.

That attitude is fine if his spot of the list isnt counted against 'slots allocated to kpf depth' which it would be.

 

[Peck]

we postulate that players are carrying injuries all the time and its no big deal. i'm not saying this is butch's problem, i have no idea, but making mental health an unmentionable contributes to isolating people with mental health issues postulating depression is no different to suggesting fitness is the issue. we have as little info to support either hypothesis

I find the stigma over depression very strange. People are happy to assume someone is a lazy arsehole/morally corrupt etc. but if they drop the words "I have depression as stated by my doctor" then out come the get well soon parade.

Its good that people respect depression as a serious issue, but it seems like people don't take mental health issues seriously unless they have a label. Maybe I'm overstating things, but it just seems people are particularly wary about depression when there are plenty of other mental issues that can be just as serious, and there are plenty of forms of depression some of which are temporary due to the circumstances of the person. The sentence "you aren't depressed you are just sad" is one line that I can easily see people throwing out, and it doesn't' really make sense to me personally.

This is an open forum you can postulate about what you like. As I am someone who is very familiar with mental illness I personally just don't think it's very fair. There's a part of me that wishes things like depression and the like were as simple as OP or plantar fasciitis.
Just adding my perspective. Play on!

That's fair, but there are plenty of off field issues that aren't as serious as clinical depression. Also your comparison to OP or plantar fasciitis is reasonable, but my understanding (and I could well be talking s**t here, as I am not an expert so please forgive me if I'm wrong) is that while mental health issues are complicated, they know a lot these days and a treatment can be identified rather swiftly, but can take years of therapy to acheive strong results.

Sorry for the off-topicness, but I just feel strongly that the stigma over depression/mental health which I believe exists can be harmful, particularly in instances where there is a problem that doesn't have the seriousness of a clinical mental problem, but requires treatment nonetheless.

I'd like to note at this point the off field problems (no label given) of many players in the past, who were rather maligned, often despised by the supporter base. Perhaps Portia stating clearly that John Butcher could have depression (not that I'm saying you did) will prevent supporters doing the same to him.

 

[Tibbs]

Barring a turnaround that is looking increasingly more unlikely each week, i'll be telling people years from now that the moment Butcher was done was selection night, round 4 2014.

In a similar manner to the decisions to play Nick Salter and Steven Salopek in defence, that one decision not to play him (and I guess subsequent decisions to leave him out of the side when it would have been very easy to pick him) was the nudge over the edge. It's a sliding doors type thing. He plays the next week against Brisbane and let's be honest, probably bags 3 or 4 just by being on the field in that game, and he's probably booked his spot in the side for the next several games at least, and probably averages 10 touches, 4 marks and a goal for the rest of the season.

Instead, Sam Gray comes in and in the easiest of scenarios plays a good game and locks himself into selection discussion for the rest of the season.

Butcher starts well in the SANFL but gets progressively worse as the season goes on until a performance like today's game.

It was a strategic **** up IMO, but only Butcher can pull himself out of it now. He'll have the final season of his contract to break into the team.

I have largely distanced myself from the "Butcher debate" because it can be so emotive and subjective, and ultimately I trust our coaches to do the best for him. I have noted with interest from the sidelines though, the various opposing views ... but this statement, to me, defies all belief and logic! Yep, lets all just blame it on Ken!! Are you kidding???

Ken gave him three or four games to prove himself while being bagged from media and supporters. You honestly reckon that handing him a "crutch" to stand on by playing him against Brisbane would have solved all his woes? Honestly? So, you are saying that putting him back in the lower grade Magpies who are dominating the SANFL, with dominant mids giving him great supply, and playing against much lower-standard defenders was bad for his confidence?? In effect you are saying Butcher didnt get dropped from the Power because he was playing bad, but rather he is playing bad because he got dropped from the power!

 

[Portia]

Depression is not the only form of mental health issue. He really does appear to have clinical anxiety when it comes to taking a set shot for goal. Like people have what others consider an irrational fear of heights, open spaces, spiders, whatever. It's terrible watching his mental disintegration.

Maybe a move down back to allow the ball to come to him and keep him away from the front end of goals would at least divert him away from the source of his anxiety and help his overall game.

Continuing our line of wanton unfounded speculation, I would suggest that simple self-sabotage is more likely than a PTSD-like `goal anxiety'.

Self esteem is a tricky thing for people with a lauded talent, who are told that they are talented (which is something they feel they can't control), but not necessarily valued for what they can control; eg. hard work.

It seems to me that this is more in line with Butcher's performance, as he works his arse off for one percenters, tackles and the like, which are hard work and no one has a talent at, but when it comes to an area he's expected to have talent and has the opportunity to get inside his own head, the confidence goes. He feels he lacks control, and this is quite possibly a long held belief, which makes it even harder to break through.

Again, all theorycrafting bullshit here, but its my best guess. He's probably one of those guys who could come back from rock bottom stronger, but that won't happen when he's on an AFL list.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

But then what is goal anxiety other than simple self-sabotage? Either way it's your brain not working the way it does for 'neurotypical' people in a given situation. You're basically giving a reason why he has goal anxiety not offering an alternative.

Now onto another example ...

Mike Sheahan interviewed Matthew Richardson on 3AW on Saturday and they talked about his famous yips. He said that no matter how much he practised goal kicking in training with people shouting at him etc come match day he would invariably suffer the same demons.

Match day is different, there's something riding on it. Your brain knows that just like it knows at training there is no result. You can relax. Butch might kick a million goals at training with piped noise, with people yelling at him. In the end it makes no difference come match day.

Richo said the best goal kicking year he had was the year he had a set routine and he went through that before every kick. Process distracted him from the end result. After 9 rounds he had kicked 27.3. Then he wrecked his knee, all his concentration went into rehabilitation and he admitted he let the focus on a goal kicking routine go when he came back. And the yips returned.

 

[itisnt2hard]

Continuing our line of wanton unfounded speculation, I would suggest that simple self-sabotage is more likely than a PTSD-like `goal anxiety'.

Self esteem is a tricky thing for people with a lauded talent, who are told that they are talented (which is something they feel they can't control), but not necessarily valued for what they can control;
This area at elite level in any sport or business needs constant revisiting. If the heads not working properly neither is anything else below the neck. I have dragged quality fighters out of dressing rooms pre fight because of last minute self doubt. I have helped young kids carve out a successful AFL career and i have been there for the ones that either didnt make it or got cut.
My future young son in law is currently in Scotland getting ready for his first international showing in the Javelin. I know how AA approach and monitor our athletes head space. I have alifetime in this area and Butchs kicking and current on field performance is NOT the issue. Butch knows how to kick a ball, mark, find his own footy. This is bigger than his abilities. He needs to be put on ice now and spend time with HEAD people not footy people. With his past hip problems and current form he is untradeable so all parties have nothing to loose and all to gain.

 

[Portia]

But then what is goal anxiety other than simple self-sabotage? Either way it's your brain not working the way it does for 'neurotypical' people in a given situation. You're basically giving a reason why he has goal anxiety not offering an alternative.

I'm saying that hypothetically its not the goals causing the issue; they are not driving him to catatonia or a total fear response like the similes you mention.

He'll hypothetically have the exact same insecurities in the backline.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

I'm saying that hypothetically its not the goals causing the issue; they are not driving him to catatonia or a total fear response like the similes you mention.

He'll hypothetically have the exact same insecurities in the backline.

I don't agree because I think the issue is focused on the goal kicking yips. I've seen him play up the ground and he's fine. Flies for marks, takes them, runs and carries, even rucks serviceably. But he's a bundle of anxiety once he has to take a kick for goal. It's a unique pressure because it's all on you.

Even up forward he still clunks some big pack grabs and you think wow he's a natural forward. But then he has that kick. And now it could be he's avoiding even putting himself in the position to take a kick by leaving the marking to Shaw and Harvey.

But in the end what do I know? I'm just a boofhead supporter watching a guy once a week if that from outside the fence.

 

[Portia]

I don't agree because I think the issue is focused on the goal kicking yips. I've seen him play up the ground and he's fine. Flies for marks, takes them, runs and carries. But he's a bundle of anxiety once he has to take a kick for goal. It's a unique pressure because it's all on you.

Tell me how that would change when he's marked the ball in the back pocket looking for an option to kick to in Kingsley/Pittard fashion?

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Tell me how that would change when he's marked the ball in the back pocket looking for an option to kick to in Kingsley/Pittard fashion?

Because even if you miss a target they can recover the ball. You miss a goal that's it, the play is over. And so his field kicking is actually pretty good because his mind can relax that little bit he needs.

 

[Portia]

Because even if you miss a target they can recover the ball. You miss a goal that's it, the play is over. And so his field kicking is actually pretty good because his mind can relax that little bit he needs.

Ford, we're going to have to agree to disagree, because from my position it seems you're basing your view on the superficial without looking for whats underneath.