Opinion Butcher

[itisnt2hard]

Because even if you miss a target they can recover the ball. You miss a goal that's it, the play is over. And so his field kicking is actually pretty good because his mind can relax that little bit he needs.

You nearly got it Ford. His field kicking isnt that bad not because his mind is relaxed, but actually because he reacts before he has time to think. once the head gets involved, game over. So all is not lost.

 

[TheFVK]

Occam's razor would suggest that he isn't very good. I'm going with that.

Thing is we know he's got the talent. Noone kicks 10 goals over 2 weeks at AFL level if they're crap.. We know he CAN take a big pack mark and DOES play like a small when the ball hits the deck. What's more he's handled pressure before.. Remember his settling set shot goal in the 3rd quarter of the first Showdown at Adelaide Oval when the game was on the line?

As has been said as nauseum, he's clearly got some sort of crippling anxiety which comes out in front of the sticks and has grown to impact the other parts of his game which were once strengths. Personally I think he'll learn to overcome it over time, whether it be next year or in 5 years.

Will we be that patient with Butch, or will we (perhaps rightfully) acknowledge it is in his best interests to work through them in a different environment? Not sure, but his current woes are certainly not because he's simply "not very good"

With Mason Shaw, Mitch Harvey and one of Lycett/Gorringe coming through he'll no longer have the sole burden of being our next great CHF hope.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Ford, we're going to have to agree to disagree, because from my position it seems you're basing your view on the superficial without looking for whats underneath.

You can't possibly know what's underneath and I've never pretended to suggest otherwise. It could be an unresolved Oedipal Complex for all we know.

All I am saying is he has an anxiety disorder in front of goal. It's not a simple matter of more kicking or match simulation, it runs deeper than that and people need to be cognisant and understanding of that. Comments along the lines of 'harden up' are pathetic in this situation (not that you have said this).

I said three posts ago that I was just saying it was a anxiety condition and you were looking at the underlying but your conclusion is still the same, his confidence goes in front of goal.

But anyone who has watched him over any length of time will tell you the response is specific to goal kicking. Apart from the occasional awkward marking attempt his other football skills, including kicking the ball in general field play are good.

 

[Portia]

Yeah nah

 

[El_Scorcho]

I think thats drawing a very long bow. Chances are he has 5 touches, 1 mark and 0.1 playign on Glass/Mackenzie/Brown, follows it up with 3 kicks 1 mark 0.1 playing on Taylor/Lonergan/Rivers the next week and is dropped.

This isnt the first time Butcher has played this poorly this year. Its just the first one that was televised for all to see.

Maybe he does only manage 6 or 7 touches against West Coast, but maybe he provides a contest up forward and stops Mackenzie from gathering 21 touches and 8 marks and being a big part of why the Eagles stayed so close to us.

We were all over Geelong all game. We were getting plenty of good quality ball inside 50 and we were leading comfortably by half way through the 2nd. Maybe they don't give Butch enough credit and he takes some marks over the back and gets on the end of a few of our scoring thrusts, which were probably at peak power in that game.

Don't forget that in round 2 he spent most of the match playing against Talia, who will go very close to AA this season, and managed to stay involved and contribute to several goals. Against North he managed 10 touches and 6 marks in a game people are slamming him for. His form was fine and dropping him was a mistake.

I generally like your work El_Scorcho but if it has all unraveled because he was dropped for round 4 and subsequently not selected again due to questionable form, then he's too mentally fragile for AFL. Knowing Butcher's seasonal SANFL form, how can you possibly believe he would have been any better at AFL level? If anything, it's more likely that he would have been an even bigger liability than he was against North which only would have hastened his loss in confidence.

Knowing Butcher's seasonal form, I know that he kicked 5 goals on the same weekend that we molested Brisbane by 113 points or whatever it was.

Brisbane had a dearth of tall defenders and a midfield that was way out of it's league. We were pumping the ball inside 50 like it was going out of fashion with barely any pressure. The most likely scenario is that Butcher has 5 or 6 shots at goal when the side is leading by 10 goals +, putting a lot less pressure on him and maybe helping him get through the yips. He could have been a total liability against Brisbane and we still would have won by 100 points.

Knowing the rest of Butch's seasonal form, I know that he continued to contribute on the scoreboard. He was what, 3rd in the Ken Farmer after 13 rounds? Averaging 3 goals a game, always taking the best defender (and he did again yesterday, not that that excuses a 6 disposal game).

There was very little to be gained by playing Sam Gray or Jake Neade but we played them anyway and left Butcher in the 2s while he was a regular contributor. Now in the last few weeks we've gone in horrendously short and he still can't get a game. Can you imagine being the next in line KPP at your club, sitting 3rd in the state league goalkicking, and your club loses two KPPs in one week and instead of picking you to replace them, picks a tall flanker and a small? That would be a huge shot to anybody's confidence and i'm not surprised that a noted confidence player has had a downturn in form.

 

[Trewth]

Thing is we know he's got the talent. Noone kicks 10 goals over 2 weeks at AFL level if they're crap.. We know he CAN take a big pack mark and DOES play like a small when the ball hits the deck. What's more he's handled pressure before.. Remember his settling set shot goal in the 3rd quarter of the first Showdown at Adelaide Oval when the game was on the line?

As has been said as nauseum, he's clearly got some sort of crippling anxiety which comes out in front of the sticks and has grown to impact the other parts of his game which were once strengths. Personally I think he'll learn to overcome it over time, whether it be next year or in 5 years.

Will we be that patient with Butch, or will we (perhaps rightfully) acknowledge it is in his best interests to work through them in a different environment? Not sure, but his current woes are certainly not because he's simply "not very good"

With Mason Shaw, Mitch Harvey and one of Lycett/Gorringe coming through he'll no longer have the sole burden of being our next great CHF hope.

Fair and reasonable post. I don't know the reason why John is under performing, no one here does really, it's all just speculation based on the minute amount of information available to us, which is why I flippantly went with the Occam's Razor theory which in hindsight was probably unfair. A bad footballer doesn't get on an AFL list let alone get picked high in the first round.

Saying that though when do we as a supporter group stop blaming everything under the sun (Ken not picking him, development coaches, his hips, clinical anxiety etc.) and just explore the fact that maybe he's not up to it? His examples of his talent are coming few and far between (remember that one time ages ago when he did that thing that was good?). Daniel Stewart showed plenty of promise but it didn't take us anywhere near this long to realise he wasn't up to it.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

You nearly got it Ford. His field kicking isnt that bad not because his mind is relaxed, but actually because he reacts before he has time to think. once the head gets involved, game over. So all is not lost.

And yet two weeks ago I watched him slot a set shot through for a goal from 50m at Alberton out near the boundary with the whole supporter base in the Quinn Stand holding their collective breath. He just went back and kicked through the ball.

So even more specifically it's the set shot that should be a gimme, again the one that creates the most stress through expectation. Westhoff isn't far off having the same yips, he misses those routinely it's just his kicking action doesn't turn to dust in the situation. In those instances players tend to poke a bit at the ball and try to steer it through, changing their normal kicking action and psychological approach.

Even field kicking requires some matter of concentration as you might be weighing up options. Again, he's not bad in those situations.

 

[helenbeee]

Fair and reasonable post. I don't know the reason why John is under performing, no one here does really, it's all just speculation based on the minute amount of information available to us, which is why I flippantly went with the Occam's Razor theory, which in hindsight was probably unfair. A bad footballer doesn't get on an AFL list let alone get picked high in the first round.

Saying that though when do we as a supporter group stop blaming everything under the sun (Ken not picking him, development coaches, his hips, clinical anxiety etc.) and just explore the fact that maybe he's not up to it? His examples of his talent are coming few and far between (remember that one time ages ago when he did that thing that was good?). Daniel Stewart showed plenty of promise but it didn't take us anywhere near this long to realise he wasn't up to it.

Hes young he will work it out the trouble is he probably needs to play games to iron out the problems and Im guessing as each challenge is met new ones arise.
We have to have patience these are young fellas trying their best to be the best cant be easy.
Youre right the player has responsibilities as well as coaches but they are not machines its too easy for us to micro criticise and judge from our lounge chairs.
All in all Im pretty happy with performances all year there has been a dramatic improvement in attitude and cohesive team behaviour. We have injuries and are lacking depth in key areas anyone who thought that we had resolved those problems in the short few months of our teams recovery this season is kidding themselves those issues will take longer to resolve.

 

[Powerstufff]

... Against North he managed 10 touches and 6 marks in a game people are slamming him for. His form was fine and dropping him was a mistake ......

You keep saying this ridiculous stuff that Butcher's mother would face-palm at. The trouble is we have a few people here who read your constant bizzaro spin and it's an interesting exercise in 'me tooism' that obviously without having seen him play they start putting his name into their ins for upcoming matches.
He cost us the Kangaroos game, couldn't/wouldn't compete. This after a decent game in the R2 Showdown the week before. In the SANFL the only game he has played well in when the game was actually a contest was the game at Clare.
You remind me of a guy who used to post here years ago now but he supported Damon White in the same distorting manner you support Butcher. Used about four user names over a couple of years and I'm struggling to recall one (I remember he said he coached juniors at Cove Cobras at one point if that triggers a recollection from anybody). I guess in his obsession he was at least lucky that White kept being selected. Game after game White failed to perform but it was the coach or it was the other Port players who were at fault. He balanced his fascination with White with a ferocious loathing of Tredrea, at least you haven't got something similar going there.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Not Frank Spencer Clone?

 

[El_Scorcho]

You keep saying this ridiculous stuff that Butcher's mother would face-palm at. The trouble is we have a few people here who read your constant bizzaro spin and it's an interesting exercise in 'me toosim' that obviously without having seen him play they start putting his name into their ins for upcoming matches.

Yeah that's right i'm the ******* pied piper on these forums and i've perpetuated this fantastic myth that we're too short and that Butcher is the second coming of Carey and fully half the posters on the Port board are simply blindly following me.

Jesus Christ get a grip.

He cost us the Kangaroos game, couldn't/wouldn't compete. This after a decent game in the R2 Showdown the week before. In the SANFL the only game he has played well in when the game was actually a contest was the game at Clare.

Blaming him for the Kangaroos loss is a particularly horrendous piece of revisionist history and I suggest you go and rewatch the game. He was average but he had plenty of much, much more experienced teammates who didn't stand up. "Cost us the Kangaroos game". Come oooooooonnnnn. Are we sure it wasn't Jonas having the worst game of his career? Or Lobbe being schooled by Goldstein? I mean it's a team game but if you'd like to put all the blame on a 20 game developing KPF and ignore all the other passengers that day I guess that's you're prerogative.

Yeah he certainly didn't play well in a contest in the showdown. Well if you ignore his set shot in the 3rd quarter that put us back in front after the Crows had rallied and hit the lead. Or the multiple score involvements while being manned up by a guy who will probably be the AA CHB this season.

I mean sure if you want to totally ignore what happened then you can make any argument you like, can't you.

He was fine against Carlton. 12 touches, 4 marks and a goal, as well as 4 tackles is a perfectly reasonable return for a 20 game KPF and any argument that it isn't is an example of the ridiculous standards that Butcher is being held to. Sam Reid has gotten by just fine with a career average less than those numbers.

You remind me of a guy who used to post here years ago now but he supported Damon White in the same distorting manner you support Butcher. Used about four user names over a couple of years and I'm struggling to recall one (I remember he said he coached juniors at Cove Cobras at one point if that triggers a recollection from anybody). I guess in his obsession he was at least lucky that White kept being selected. Game after game White failed to perform but it was the coach or it was the other Port players who were at fault. He balanced his fascination with White with a ferocious loathing of Tredrea, at least you haven't got something similar going there.

Damon White had a rubber chest and wasn't AFL standard, but we recognised the need to develop another KPF and he played 55 games for the club, averaging less than a goal a game. We need a KPF to develop now just as badly as we did then, and all i'd love Butcher to have been given the opportunities that White was given.

White didn't work out, but there are plenty of forwards (as I and others have posted all over this board) that were struggling for a few seasons before being backed in by their clubs and finally breaking out and becoming a consistent player. Schulz and Westhoff are prime examples. Even considering the obvious set shot confidence issue, very few 20 game KPFs have had more of an impact in their AFL career than Butcher has had. If we'd played him all year and he was regularly having disaster games at AFL level i'd probably have shut up by now, but we simply haven't given him the fair run afforded to plenty of other players. I hope Sam Gray, Jake Neade and Kane Mitchell become absolutely brilliant AFL players because we've given them games when we should have been giving them to Butcher.

 

[Powerstufff]

Not Frank Spencer Clone?

Yeah it just came to me. But that was either his first or his last user name here from memory. I don't know if he was banned or copped too much blowback from other posters but he'd reappear under a different name and than post the same sort of stuff. I met the guy in real life once and surprise, surprise his persona matched his on-line one. Then again I suspect most of ours do, except for Byrons Firen who doesn't actually talk in haiku/iambic couplets.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Yeah it just came to me. But that was either his first or his last user name here from memory. I don't know if he was banned or copped too much blowback for other posters but he'd reappear under a different name and than post the same sort of stuff. I met the guy in real life once and surprise, surprise his persona matched his on-line one. The again I suspect most of ours do, except for Byrons Firen who doesn't actually talk in haiku/iambic couplets.

It was one of his identities. Had a real hate on for North too, long before Ben Jacobs.

 

[Nelso]

I think we as supporters should take some of the blame as well.

We built Butcher up to something that he has not been able to handle and the nickname "the future" has not helped him at all. He kicked those goals in 2011 in meaningless games where we were all craving for a "little white ray of hope" in a dreadful season.

Injuries from that point of time has obviously dented his confidence in his body and now he is doubting his own footballing ability as evidenced by his display yesterday.

 

[Powerstufff]

Yeah that's right i'm the ******* pied piper on these forums and i've perpetuated this fantastic myth that we're too short and that Butcher is the second coming of Carey ....

At least some self-awareness.

... Blaming him for the Kangaroos loss is a particularly horrendous piece of revisionist history and I suggest you go and rewatch the game ....

I was there, I never need to rewatch it. There were Port players who were beaten but only one who was simply lost. I know you said recently that Jonas was rated below him which is hard to imagine but I won't argue that. However to have a KP forward who could not/would not compete made it easy for the Kangas to double/triple team Schulz and after that we were toast.

... Yeah he certainly didn't play well in a contest in the showdown. Well if you ignore his set shot in the 3rd quarter that put us back in front after the Crows had rallied and hit the lead. Or the multiple score involvements while being manned up by a guy who will probably be the AA CHB this season .....

I said he had a decent game in the R2 Showdown. I'm not anti-Butch just a fair judge of performance.

... If we'd played him all year and he was regularly having disaster games at AFL level i'd probably have shut up by now ....

Really, really unlikely. He's having half-arsed/disaster games at SANFL level and you keep keep boosting him. Why would you vary if they were AFL games?

... I hope Sam Gray, Jake Neade and Kane Mitchell become absolutely brilliant AFL players because we've given them games when we should have been giving them to Butcher.

None of them are directly competing for a spot with Butcher. When we feel the need for another tall and don't simply rearrange the current AFL team Shaw and/or Harvey will be called up.

 

[I Dont Care]

I don't get to see much of Butcher, so find it hard to comment....but I do find this thread fascinating to read

 

[Powerstufff]

I don't get to see much of Butcher, so find it hard to comment....but I do find this thread fascinating to read

We live to serve.

 

[Jim Dixon]

It was one of his identities. Had a real hate on for North too, long before Ben Jacobs.

Anyone who hates North can't be all bad.

I don't get to see much of Butcher, so find it hard to comment....but I do find this thread fascinating to read

Spent the last half hour reading the last ten pages on this thread. It's not up to me to say yes or no to continuing with John Butcher but if the club lets him go, we should at the very least do a lot of work to find out why things have gone so wrong with John Butcher so we can learn from the experience and not go through it again with someone else.

And as a supporter I find the whole thing rather sad- football is supposed to be fun, not a cause of panic attacks.

 

[Oliver King]

Then again I suspect most of ours do, except for Byrons Firen who doesn't actually talk in haiku/iambic couplets.

That's disappointing.

 

[Powerstufff]

That's disappointing.

He makes up for it in other ways.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

He needs a few sessions with the man that fixed up Tredders - Benjamin Perkins (this was taped at the start of 2013 season). Butch might be driven to fix up his kicking so he can get away from Ben's lessons.

 

[Powerstufff]

He needs a few sessions with the man that fixed up Tredders - Benjamin Perkins ..... Butch might be driven to fix up his kicking so he can get away from Ben's lessons ....

I think right now the coaching staff need to tell him to forget the scoreboard and to instead greedily take every ridiculous opportunity he gets to kick at the sticks. No passing off by hand or by foot. Perhaps not even any of the various routines he has been given for set shots. Instinctive, greedy snaps and %*$* it whether it results in 6 points in a row.

 

[Zakk Wylde]

Was sitting there watching Butcher and thinking..... And thinking and watching Butcher....

 

[PowerLil]

Yeah, unfortunately.

Pretty sure his shank on goal was his only kick.

In some ways, it was actually quite sad to watch...

Yes.

 

[Grandaddy J]

Scenario A:

We persist with Butch for another year. Take off the 2011 model rose-coloured glasses for a second and you'll see this could potentially impact John even more negatively than it would if we offload him to another club this year. If he gets a full pre-season under his belt and performs next year, good on him. But the greater likelihood is that he'll just regress or stagnate for another year, and that'll be the end of his AFL career. Everyone here feigning an interest in his mental wellbeing won't care so much if he has another shocker next year, because he'll be gone come year's end.

Scenario B:

Trade Butch to a team like the Bulldogs, for an early third-round pick we could potentially use on Jake Johansen. Presumably, the Dogs give him a two-year contract, and though he may do nothing there, he's got an extra year to come good. The pressure of knowing this is his final shot and a new environment may be the catalyst he needs to fulfill his potential.