No Oppo Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

[caboose]

I am very disappointed with the (multiple) posters here who think that Hird and others should go if players are suspended.

As I have said before, what was done remains the same, irrespective of the outcome of the SC/INs.
The case against the players will be decided by legalities. Whether a tribunal accepts ASADA's assertions about what its circumstantial "evidence" means, and the burden of proof required etc.
We will never know the full story unless Dank were to come clean, which he clearly won't.
The outcome of those legalities etc in no way enlarges or diminishes what Hird, Thompson, Goodwin, Reid etc have done or are responsible for.

You should judge how you view their roles now, and not let the final outcome distract you.

If the players get off, it doesn't make anyone more innocent, it just means we dodged a bullet based on the legalities. If the players are suspended, it doesn't make anyone more guilty, it just means we got done on the legalities and some tribunal's interpretation of the rubbish that ASADA are going to put up.

In my view, Hird is innocent of all wrongdoing. He has the character, loyalty and competence of a leader that is rare, and not to be discarded, and the club owes him a huge debt of gratitude for what he has borne on its behalf for the last 12 months.

There is no way I can accept that we should have some sort of clean out, for the sake of appeasing the masses, or even for the sake of making a new start, when that would mean sacrificing those who have stood tall and done so much for our club through this crisis.

FFS show some solidarity and strength of character, and support Hird, Thompson and all those at the club who have steered us through this to the best of their ability.

Brilliantly said. And absolutely correct.

One of the most extraordinary things to observe, as well, is that these people seem to think Hird hasn't already suffered any kind of penalty. Let alone an absolutely major one, both personally and professionally. All for seemingly having done nothing wrong anyway. (And for putting his arse on the line for the club, like no one has probably ever done before. And, what's more, doing so on the basis of shocking advice from the club in any case!!)

Gobsmacking.

 

[vaughany]

I am very disappointed with the (multiple) posters here who think that Hird and others should go if players are suspended.

As I have said before, what was done remains the same, irrespective of the outcome of the SC/INs.
The case against the players will be decided by legalities. Whether a tribunal accepts ASADA's assertions about what its circumstantial "evidence" means, and the burden of proof required etc.
We will never know the full story unless Dank were to come clean, which he clearly won't.
The outcome of those legalities etc in no way enlarges or diminishes what Hird, Thompson, Goodwin, Reid etc have done or are responsible for.

You should judge how you view their roles now, and not let the final outcome distract you.

If the players get off, it doesn't make anyone more innocent, it just means we dodged a bullet based on the legalities. If the players are suspended, it doesn't make anyone more guilty, it just means we got done on the legalities and some tribunal's interpretation of the rubbish that ASADA are going to put up.

In my view, Hird is innocent of all wrongdoing. He has the character, loyalty and competence of a leader that is rare, and not to be discarded, and the club owes him a huge debt of gratitude for what he has borne on its behalf for the last 12 months.

There is no way I can accept that we should have some sort of clean out, for the sake of appeasing the masses, or even for the sake of making a new start, when that would mean sacrificing those who have stood tall and done so much for our club through this crisis.

FFS show some solidarity and strength of character, and support Hird, Thompson and all those at the club who have steered us through this to the best of their ability.

Best post in this thread?
Spot on

 

[Doss]

Brilliantly said. And absolutely correct.

One of the most extraordinary things to observe, as well, is that these people seem to think Hird hasn't already suffered any kind of penalty. Let alone an absolutely major one, both personally and professionally. All for seemingly having done nothing wrong anyway.

Gobsmacking.

It's not just about Hird. It's the entire football department, of which Hird is only a part.

And who is claiming he's suffered no penalty? Clearly he's suffered a massive one- a year long suspension and ruining of reputation.

But guess what- if the players are suspended for two years, then they're suffering an even bigger penalty. In some cases, it could well spell the end of their career.

 

[vaughany]

It's not just about Hird. It's the entire football department, of which Hird is only a part.

And who is claiming he's suffered no penalty? Clearly he's suffered a massive one- a year long suspension and ruining of reputation.

But guess what- if the players are suspended for two years, then they're suffering an even bigger penalty. In some cases, it could well spell the end of their career.

end of careers say what!?!?!

 

[Doss]

end of careers say what!?!?!

Not a ridiculous concept at all. If you're already a fringe player like, say, Tayte Pears and then you cop two years on the sidelines- it'd be hard to see him getting back. That's basically his AFL career done.

 

[vaughany]

Not a ridiculous concept at all. If you're already a fringe player like, say, Tayte Pears and then you cop two years on the sidelines- it'd be hard to see him getting back. That's basically his AFL career done.

Fair enough about players like Pears...maybe I'm delusional but I haven't accepted that players will potentially get bans. Simply can't fathom it. If bans were placed upon our players the legal team surely would fight it?

 

[jmoo wan]

There is no way known any Essendon player will be banned. Absolutely no way. This will fizzle out with a whimper, not end with a bang. I'm not sure how this talk of 2 year bans and Infraction notices has crept back in to the possible scenarios but it is not going to happen.

 

[Jade]

Fair enough about players like Pears...maybe I'm delusional but I haven't accepted that players will potentially get bans. Simply can't fathom it. If bans were placed upon our players the legal team surely would fight it?

My opinion is close to yours. I simply can't see how a successful ban sticks - the case is far too flimsy.

 

[Doss]

There is no way known any Essendon player will be banned. Absolutely no way. This will fizzle out with a whimper, not end with a bang. I'm not sure how this talk of 2 year bans and Infraction notices has crept back in to the possible scenarios but it is not going to happen.

Right now it's still a possible scenario. I don't think it's especially likely, but until this court business is sorted, we really cannot say for sure that we're in the clear.

Obviously, it goes without saying that I hope we are and that all this talk is moot. Null and void.

Fair enough about players like Pears...maybe I'm delusional but I haven't accepted that players will potentially get bans. Simply can't fathom it. If bans were placed upon our players the legal team surely would fight it?

I'm sure they'd fight it. It'd get very messy indeed.

 

[caboose]

It's not just about Hird. It's the entire football department, of which Hird is only a part.

And Hird is the "part" (if you want to put it that way) who has already been given a suspension. Others haven't received one. My comments above singled out Hird precisely on that basis - and I'm really not sure how that's not bleedingly obvious, to be honest.

And who is claiming he's suffered no penalty?

There are numerous posts on here that would have you believe he still potentially needs to take a personal whack for something many of us would argue that he's minimally responsible for, at worst ie effectively disregarding the point that he's already copped a major penalty that he shouldn't have.

I might be getting you confused with somebody else as I've got a poor connection ATM and can't be bothered trawling through the thread. But I'm pretty sure it was actually you who said something like "the club will have no credibility if the players are sidelined while the coaches hang around". Well, sorry, but in case you hadn't noticed, our senior coach has already been sidelined while all the players and other coaches have 'hung around'.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

There is no way known any Essendon player will be banned. Absolutely no way. This will fizzle out with a whimper, not end with a bang. I'm not sure how this talk of 2 year bans and Infraction notices has crept back in to the possible scenarios but it is not going to happen.

People getting sucked into the sheer weight of knobgobbler bullshit from Barrett and co.

Nothing's changed.

 

[The Prosecutor]

People getting sucked into the sheer weight of knobgobbler bullshit from Barrett and co.

Nothing's changed.

Apart from SC actually being issued (which the club and players thought wouldn't happen).

A lot has happened.

 

[84859300]

People getting sucked into the sheer weight of knobgobbler bullshit from Barrett and co.

Nothing's changed.

I hear you Ben, but this is a two horse race and funnier things have transpired when it comes to dealing with the law.

The points I raised against Harlequin's post was just trying to provide balance to her points. I think, above all else, all Essendon supporters are of the wish that no action takes place and that we are found to clear of all charges and accusations.

But as much as the HTB is 100% certain that we will receive infractions, without seeing reason...I don't think that anyone on this side of the fence should be 100% certain of a clear outcome either.

 

[cymarak]

There is no way known any Essendon player will be banned. Absolutely no way. This will fizzle out with a whimper, not end with a bang. I'm not sure how this talk of 2 year bans and Infraction notices has crept back in to the possible scenarios but it is not going to happen.

Last year the idea of us being kicked out of the finals was debated at length, ridiculed and derided. Until it happened...

Then we bent over for 'governance' and many were certain that was the end of the matter. Until it wasn't...

The moral of the story - as a group, we don't have a strong record in accurately predicting what will happen, especially as there are forces and agendas at play we don't understand / don't know about.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Apart from SC actually being issued (which the club and players thought wouldn't happen).

A lot has happened.

The complete lack of evidence hasn't changed.

 

[The Prosecutor]

The complete lack of evidence hasn't changed.

Bullshit.

Just because you haven't seen their briefs doesn't mean no evidence exists.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

You reckon the only thing they haven't leaked is the thing they'd gain most from leaking?

Righto.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

Last year the idea of us being kicked out the finals was debated at length, ridiculed and derided. Until it happened...

Then we bent over for 'governance' and many were certain that was the end of the matter. Until it wasn't...

The moral of the story - as a group, we don't have a strong record in accurately predicting what will happen, especially as there are forces and agendas at play we don't understand / don't know about.

This time we're dealing with actual courts and things like laws and evidence and justice and stuff. Revolutionary concepts for certain organisations I know, but such are the times.

 

[Beerfish]

For players to be banned there'd have to be some "smoking gun" we haven't seen yet because on the weight of the "evidence" we have seen I can't see how it can happen.

 

[The Prosecutor]

You reckon the only thing they haven't leaked is the thing they'd gain most from leaking?

Righto.

You honestly think ASADA would leak their entire player briefs? Really?

Why would they even contemplate that?

 

[DapperDon]

That's the threat they've used in the past. The government then forces the unrelated codes, NRL & AFL, etc, to sign up, threatening a withdrawel of federal funding.

Everyone makes threats down the chain.

EDIT: It was originally in a brendan schwab article that my phone isn't letting me link for some, typically annoying phone reason. Was from the Age. Should be easy to google.

This is simple enough to get by on, Australia sue WADA for blackmail and wala, WADA crawl back into their holes.

 

[2one2]

Just like they have 13000 emails and text messages and the ones worth leaking are 4 or 5 including "sounds good m8" and "you know my thoughts on supplements etc"

We have a lot of the full picture. If judge Downes thinks they can work some magic with their TB4 case, well okay then, but I think we've seen most of what there is. The sadists on the HTB seem to think they are keeping some sort of secret weapons as some sort of game with the players, that it's going to be more than TB4 etc

All pretty laughable. In summary, yeah there's not much more evidence

 

[IggypopsTshirt]

As I have said before, what was done remains the same, irrespective of the outcome of the SC/INs.

The case against the players will be decided by legalities.

The outcome of those legalities etc in no way enlarges or diminishes what Hird, Thompson, Goodwin, Reid etc have done or are responsible for.

You should judge how you view their roles now, and not let the final outcome distract you.

If the players get off, it doesn't make anyone more innocent, it just means we dodged a bullet based on the legalities. If the players are suspended, it doesn't make anyone more guilty, it just means we got done on the legalities.

In my view, Hird is innocent of all wrongdoing. He has the character, loyalty and competence of a leader that is rare, and not to be discarded, and the club owes him a huge debt of gratitude for what he has borne on its behalf for the last 12 months.

There is no way I can accept that we should have some sort of clean out, for the sake of appeasing the masses, or even for the sake of making a new start, when that would mean sacrificing those who have stood tall and done so much for our club through this crisis.

FFS show some solidarity and strength of character, and support Hird, Thompson and all those at the club who have steered us through this to the best of their ability.

Let me say firstly that I'm happy for Hird to return because I don't believe players will receive IN's.

BUT......

How on earth can the outcome not be important? If it is found players were administered normal saline and Dank ripped the club off, everyone apologises and we move forward unscathed. That is a very different scenario from Dank not being aware of the updated status of TB4 and the subsequent inadvertent doping of our entire list while keeping the head coach informed every step of the way. The fallout from this would be catastrophic for the EFC.

Whether you like it or not; If it is established that the head coach of a football club was actively involved with the sports science program that resulted in numerous players being administered banned substances and subsequently banned from competition for 2 years and the head coach was kept updated in meetings and via text message of the progress of the program; that coach will no longer have a job irrespective of whether his name is James Hird, Jesus Christ or Idi Amin. It really is as simple as that.

If the players are banned the club is gone. Financially ruined. Onfield prospects will be smashed for a decade at least. The EFC reputation ruined and name forever tainted. Our sponsors will jump ship immediately. Yet the outcome is immaterial? WTAF??
If this unlikely set of circumstances eventuate, anyone who has played a part in the destruction of the club should be publicly flogged for their role in the debacle.

I support the Essendon footy club, not individuals. It gives the "cult" accusations weight when we have people willing to watch the players go down but happy to have those who contributed to their downfall maintain their positions. It won't matter who the coach is if the worst outcome occurs, the team and club will be beyond salvage.

 

[Harlequin]

Some others disagree. They see it not as Hird accepting 'full responsibility'...more Hird accepting some responsibility.



There's no trust in business, unless you work with family and even then; that'd debatable. The governance issue has raised that there should have been many more checks in place by many more people for this to function correctly. The fact that we don't have facts x, y and z to slap on the table to nip the drama in the bud, is some of the main frustrations by supporters.



You're right, there was an email that stated this. But there was also another email asking people to use their UN skills to keep Dr Reid at bay. This could be seen as ambiguous.



Granted. But neither were Wallis, Hamilton and the rest. They have been put off for the poor processes in the club. People are questioning on how some go, but others stay. Falling on the sword can be honorable, but it can only hide sins of others for so long.

I agree with your points.

I am of the opinion that opinion pieces as in Phatprick, KB, Caro, Dumien etc have muddied the waters.

They want a scapegoat and James Hird is the head they want. Why who the * really knows.

I don't want to be part of a Club that burns it's staff whether they be the CEO or the person that washes our kits.

But I do want this to end. As does everybody here.
I want this to end with no further collateral damage.

Our boys have had enough

 

[cymarak]

Let's all keep in mind that whether players are suspended or not does not prove whether doping did or did not occur - it may just be decided on the basis of who has the better legal / PR team.

Using the overall outcome of this process to judge actions - rather than directly judging the actions themselves - is flawed IMHO.