Unofficial Preview Changes/prematch discussion vs Hawthorn (Out: Frog/In: JMac)

[King Corey]

At this point in time (and with the form he’s in...even though you said to discount current form), I’d take Spud over JMac.

I like Jamie too but absolutely this - every day of the week and twice on Sunday (twilight).

I'd also include that Spud's ability to provide huge clearing kicks under pressure has helped save games on many an occasion.

 

[Psicosis]

Wow.... I thought he got dropped last week, and then only came in after Luke and JMac pulled out.

Came in an performed very well.

Jacobs is an easy whipping boy for the ignorant and stupid, but the kid keeps putting his hand up and improving, only proving my point.

 

[Phillyroo]

Came in an performed very well.

Jacobs is an easy whipping boy for the ignorant and stupid, but the kid keeps putting his hand up and improving, only proving my point.

I'm not whipping him... I just think Luke is better.

 

[benbanjo]

Came in an performed very well.

Jacobs is an easy whipping boy for the ignorant and stupid, but the kid keeps putting his hand up and improving, only proving my point.

Well to be fair he has been very average before his last 2 games....

 

[Lums23]

You think Ben Jacobs is ahead of Luke????
Really?

Not sure about ahead, but he'd have to be more likely to be picked next week. It's a lot easier to keep your spot in the side than to fight your way in. Jacobs has done everything you could have asked of him in the last two games

 

[Lums23]

Wow, I can't believe I've just read almost 13 pages about Sam Gibson.

Reckon you'll knock us off on Saturday. We don't have suitable match ups for Petrie, Waite and Brown, you're our bogey side and you play Etihad better than anyone. I think the way you play troubles us, and if not for Cyril you would have probably won both games in 2013 too.

I'm not saying we can't win but I think you should be favourites. In saying that we tend to bounce back strongly after a loss. Our games are usually tight and I expect this to be no different.

You obviously don't come here often

 

[Phillyroo]

Not sure about ahead, but he'd have to be more likely to be picked next week. It's a lot easier to keep your spot in the side than to fight your way in. Jacobs has done everything you could have asked of him in the last two games

I hear what you are saying, but Luke didn't get dropped, he was a late out with injury. If he is fit, I think he comes straight back in. Maybe not for Ben...

 

[GarnerSmash]

I hear what you are saying, but Luke didn't get dropped, he was a late out with injury. If he is fit, I think he comes straight back in. Maybe not for Ben...

Interesting.

Lets say we bring back both McDonald and Wells and drop Dumont and Turner. Harvey goes back to half forward alongside Higgins and Nahas, McDonald goes to the backline and Atley stays wing. Then we have:

B: Wright - Tarrant - Spud
HB: Jacobs - Thompson - McDonald
C: Atley - Swallow - Wells
HF: Higgins - Waite - Harvey
F: Thomas - Petrie - Brown
R: Goldy - Cunners - Swallow
Int: Bastinac - Nahas - Wood - Gibson

We cpuld even push McDonald to a wing and Atley back given that Boomer goes forward so that we maintain that dash, however if Boomer stays behind the ball then I can see a sub from Nahas/Basti/McDonad/Atley. Maybe McDonald gets more on ball time and Wells plays more half forward?

B: Wright - Tarrant - Spud
HB: Jacobs - Thompson - Harvey
C: Atley - Swallow - McDonald
HF: Higgins - Waite - Wells
F: Thomas - Petrie - Brown
R: Goldy - Cunners - Swallow
Int: Bastinac - Nahas - Wood - Gibson

Options are good. Versatility is good.

 

[Phillyroo]

Interesting.

Lets say we bring back both McDonald and Wells and drop Dumont and Turner. Harvey goes back to half forward alongside Higgins and Nahas, McDonald goes to the backline and Atley stays wing. Then we have:

B: Wright - Tarrant - Spud
HB: Jacobs - Thompson - McDonald
C: Atley - Swallow - Wells
HF: Higgins - Waite - Harvey
F: Thomas - Petrie - Brown
R: Goldy - Cunners - Swallow
Int: Bastinac - Nahas - Wood - Gibson

We cpuld even push McDonald to a wing and Atley back given that Boomer goes forward so that we maintain that dash, however if Boomer stays behind the ball then I can see a sub from Nahas/Basti/McDonad/Atley. Maybe McDonald gets more on ball time and Wells plays more half forward?

B: Wright - Tarrant - Spud
HB: Jacobs - Thompson - Harvey
C: Atley - Swallow - McDonald
HF: Higgins - Waite - Wells
F: Thomas - Petrie - Brown
R: Goldy - Cunners - Swallow
Int: Bastinac - Nahas - Wood - Gibson

Options are good. Versatility is good.

Could you see Wells as a sub this week??

 

[FAILTOSUCCEED]

Very interesting discussion about our backline. It certainly shows that we have great depth in this part of the ground. What shouldn't be forgotten is that the coach seems to have a very high opinion of Jamie Macmillan so it wouldn't surprise me if he was bought straight back into the team this week although I think he should come back through the 2s after missing 3.

Ideal starting back line for me with current availabilities, assuming JMac & McDonald are fit...

FB: McDonald Thompson Firrito
HB Atley Tarrant Wright

Jacobs rotating through off bench.

I think McDonald comes in based on his form before injury, at the expense of Turner/Gibson.
Dumont deserves another crack based on his sub performance.

For me, JMac has to come back via VFL, as Jacobs form has been solid.
Jacobs is starting to impress me, just needs to work on disposal and decision making and will be good... He's developing nicely, looks more agile as well.

 

[Donkey Chop]

Bo

Interesting.

Lets say we bring back both McDonald and Wells and drop Dumont and Turner. Harvey goes back to half forward alongside Higgins and Nahas, McDonald goes to the backline and Atley stays wing. Then we have:

B: Wright - Tarrant - Spud
HB: Jacobs - Thompson - McDonald
C: Atley - Swallow - Wells
HF: Higgins - Waite - Harvey
F: Thomas - Petrie - Brown
R: Goldy - Cunners - Swallow
Int: Bastinac - Nahas - Wood - Gibson

We cpuld even push McDonald to a wing and Atley back given that Boomer goes forward so that we maintain that dash, however if Boomer stays behind the ball then I can see a sub from Nahas/Basti/McDonad/Atley. Maybe McDonald gets more on ball time and Wells plays more half forward?

B: Wright - Tarrant - Spud
HB: Jacobs - Thompson - Harvey
C: Atley - Swallow - McDonald
HF: Higgins - Waite - Wells
F: Thomas - Petrie - Brown
R: Goldy - Cunners - Swallow
Int: Bastinac - Nahas - Wood - Gibson

Options are good. Versatility is good.

Both very stron sides there Tron. The thing that stands out like dogs balls to me is what the hell are we going to when Hansen comes back. I wrote early days that Firrito is the most obvious to come out but I think I was wrong there. He has been very good and I was just going off how I thought our defense would work best defensively.

On reflection I think we can have Tarrant, Thompson, Hansen and Spud in the back 6. Mainly because Tarrant has speed and gives us plenty coming out of defense. In the past we have gone with a backline of Thompson, Hansen, Tippett, Grima and Spud and have been killed on the rebound. This is where the emergence of Tarrant is so crucial because it means we can play an extra tall but not lose anything in pace.

 

[Pykie]

At some stage soon people are going to start to realise that some of our 'undroppable' locks are going to be dropped if their current form warrants it. Let's forget for the moment that the Crows game in Round 1 happened. Through trial and tribulation, form and injury we've had to play a number of players who wouldn't have been considered best 22 at the start of the season. By and large many of these players have come in and played their roles, lifted to new levels and competed like the desperate men they need to be if they are going to retain their contracts let alone their place in the side next week.

This leads me to our back 6 from the weekend and let's face it, as a collective they were brilliant. If it ain't broke, don't fix it IMO. Let's look at our options currently. Probably the weakest link was Atley and he has started the year off, I think it must be accepted without the impact we would have liked. Lachie will be back soon enough, and fit and firing he is critical to our top 4 aspirations. Sammy Wright I thought was practically best on ground last week and has been building solidly since Round 1 to follow on from his inspired finals series last year. He's a seriously good player. Firrito is the pillar of strength, experience and courage bustling out of the back line that is so important to our structure. Perhaps he's a touch vulnerable compared to some others but I say that while punching myself with my left for the temerity of even thinking it. Scooter has had a bad start to the year but the Geelong game was his best by a mile. Critical for us that he's playing that role as he did in his AA year. What allowed him to again become that player we know and love? One word.... Tarrant! Simply put, it was having Tarrant playing in our back 6, fit, confident and able to take on the gorilla Hawkins. Benny Jacobs has come in and after the last two weeks shown glimpses of form, skill, courage, desperation and even speed that many people thought he didn't possess. Right now he keeps his spot 100% although I must admit nothing's certain for poor Benny considering BS had incredulously dropped him from the initial line-up after what had probably been his best game for the club the week before. A few more games like he's just played and it will be impossible for him to be the coaches scapegoat anymore.

Now those not in the line-up on the weekend. Lukey Mac. Brilliant, courageous, never gives up, such an important player. Potentially a future captain. However... and I've said this before he turns the ball over way too much. Until he fixes this, or at least understands his current limitations, well right now until he refines the necessary skills he is NOT the automatic lock that some people think. McMillan, well again he has so many qualities that make him a potential top 22 player; dash, skill, poise, leadership, can kick a goal, however at the moment his great weakness is he gets beaten one on one far too often and misses tackles. Again potentially a player who needs a few weeks in the VFL. Tippett will get another chance into the future as well don't forget him. My one other wildcard I'd like to throw into the ring is Daw who I think, showed in the NAB cup that possibly he could be a star for us in defence. Something to consider in the not too distant future. Narni also somewhere off on the horizon and let's not forget the club drafted last year three defenders for the future.

All in all who the f*** knows what the selection committee is going to do (and that's just the back line) but right now our depth is looking good and we should only be in the position now where we select the best players based purely on form.

*and oh yes, someone else mentioned, we've also got that Boomer fellow plunked at the moment down back. Think he was at CHB a few weeks back.

You also have to understand who you are trying to predict, Brad Scott is a stubborn guy who see's certain players as absolutely vital to his "system".

You only had to hear him on the couch on monday to understand that, I thought Gerard put to him a perfectly fine question in regards to Petrie. He's got a very poor record against top 8 teams, an average start to the year and with a dearth of KPF forwards up for selection on the list, will he come under pressure?

The answer was a categorical no, not only is Petrie safe, but he's the first picked by the sounds of it. I believe he should be in the team, but some players are so far from dropped to the average Joe in Brad's system it's not funny.

Gibson would be one, Petrie is obviously another.

 

[shinboner spiggs]

Could you see Wells as a sub this week??

Wells should be sub if he plays, needs to be eased back in, and having watched wells over a career, a 3/4 fit wells is a liability.

 

[Donkey Chop]

Wells should be sub if he plays, needs to be eased back in, and having watched wells over a career, a 3/4 fit wells is a liability.

If he's not fit enough he shouldn't play. Sub or otherwise

 

[Bigeasy]

You also have to understand who you are trying to predict, Brad Scott is a stubborn guy who see's certain players as absolutely vital to his "system".

You only had to hear him on the couch on monday to understand that, I thought Gerard put to him a perfectly fine question in regards to Petrie. He's got a very poor record against top 8 teams, an average start to the year and with a dearth of KPF forwards up for selection on the list, will he come under pressure?

The answer was a categorical no, not only is Petrie safe, but he's the first picked by the sounds of it. I believe he should be in the team, but some players are so far from dropped to the average Joe in Brad's system it's not funny.

Gibson would be one, Petrie is obviously another.

Spot on Pykie, Scott hasn't got the balls to make a tough call on a senior player. Petrie's direct opponents this year have also been in the best for the opposition.

Talia
Papparone
Trengrove
Rivers

He isnt impacting the scoreboard, has only taken a couple of contested marks this year, tackles are low but seems to be integral?

I love Drewy but as a forward, he's not the same player and if we are serious about winning a flag then Scott has to make a call.

 

[Kimbo]

While I’m a fan of Jamie’s, and I don’t think there’s too much between the two of them, this is probably one of those classic ‘stats don’t tell the whole story’ situations. There are other important, often more intangible strings (a few of which you've mentioned) to Spud's bow – experience/on-field leadership, quality decision-making, superb ability to read the play, crunching defensive spoils, knowing just the right time to leave a player to provide a chop out for a teammate, being able to man up on taller/bigger-bodied opponents, and raw (grappling) strength. Positives that are (for the most part) hard to quantify in statistical terms, but are apparent to anyone watching him play, circa now.

(That's not to suggest that there aren't a few 'intangibles' where JMac has the edge.)

Said it before and I’ll say it again – I think Spud’s much more important to the team than he is given credit for. (Around here, anyway). At this point in time (and with the form he’s in...even though you said to discount current form), I’d take Spud over JMac.

Quoted, circa now , in order to "Like" again.

I'd also include that Spud's ability to provide huge clearing kicks under pressure has helped save games on many an occasion.

...and 'raking' handpasses!

 

[GarnerSmash]

Could you see Wells as a sub this week??

Possibly.

Bo


Both very stron sides there Tron. The thing that stands out like dogs balls to me is what the hell are we going to when Hansen comes back. I wrote early days that Firrito is the most obvious to come out but I think I was wrong there. He has been very good and I was just going off how I thought our defense would work best defensively.

On reflection I think we can have Tarrant, Thompson, Hansen and Spud in the back 6. Mainly because Tarrant has speed and gives us plenty coming out of defense. In the past we have gone with a backline of Thompson, Hansen, Tippett, Grima and Spud and have been killed on the rebound. This is where the emergence of Tarrant is so crucial because it means we can play an extra tall but not lose anything in pace.

It is an interesting dilemma.

Hanners plays on smaller opponents most of the time and runs off to play interceptor and Spud can play both small and tallish. I think even with Taz there we simply need to have one or two genuine ball carriers in the mix. I guess we could suck it and see. I think a key would be just how quickly the midfield can transition back to help. Once we have numbers back the pace of the back 6 becomes less relevant as the mids are back there too. If we get done over the back of a press then there could be problems.

 

[GarnerSmash]

Spot on Pykie, Scott hasn't got the balls to make a tough call on a senior player. Petrie's direct opponents this year have also been in the best for the opposition.

Talia
Papparone
Trengrove
Rivers

He isnt impacting the scoreboard, has only taken a couple of contested marks this year, tackles are low but seems to be integral?

I love Drewy but as a forward, he's not the same player and if we are serious about winning a flag then Scott has to make a call.

It isn't about balls, it is about faith in structure.

Scott obviously believes strongly in his system, has key roles within that system that he believes are best served by playing particular players in them and that the output of those players should not be measured purely by goals kicked, possessions gathered, score involvements etc. but by other intangibles that we are unaware of but the team are clearly understanding of. It then becomes less of faith in players but of structure. We are now at a point in our lists development whereby the structure should be able to stand up given the talent on the list. If it doesn't then it is the structure that requires redevelopment, which then really exposes those role players to the same scrutiny as others on the list.

 

[benbanjo]

I like Jamie too but absolutely this - every day of the week and twice on Sunday (twilight).

I'd also include that Spud's ability to provide huge clearing kicks under pressure has helped save games on many an occasion.

Spud is a great asset back there able to cover and provide run a brute really....

I still remember sitting there playing poker with Mark Williams when he used to play for the hawks and he saying how strong Firrito is, also said Firrito beat him up behind play a few times... was funny!

 

[Mav]

Possibly.

It is an interesting dilemma.

Hanners plays on smaller opponents most of the time and runs off to play interceptor and Spud can play both small and tallish. I think even with Taz there we simply need to have one or two genuine ball carriers in the mix. I guess we could suck it and see. I think a key would be just how quickly the midfield can transition back to help. Once we have numbers back the pace of the back 6 becomes less relevant as the mids are back there too. If we get done over the back of a press then there could be problems.

shouldn't this conversation be moved to another thread about the up coming game, or one about Drew, or one about Wells? It has nothing to do with Loogie.

All these player threads get so confusing. I wonder if the coaches have the same issues in Selection meetings. Discussing moving Brown from left forward pocket to right forward pocket and all if a sudden Jacobs is dropped and the amputation of Garners leg has changed to a 2 week nose bleed.

 

[Bigeasy]

It isn't about balls, it is about faith in structure.

Scott obviously believes strongly in his system, has key roles within that system that he believes are best served by playing particular players in them and that the output of those players should not be measured by goals kicked, possessions gathered, score involvements etc. but by other intangibles that we are unaware of but the team are clearly understanding of. It then becomes less of faith in players but of structure.

The old intangibles argument. Sorry Tron i dont buy it. Drew lacks physicality and mongrel, intangibles we need. He needs to hit packs and hurt people with his frame but he doesn't. Yes he chases hard but so would Harper if he came in.

What's frustrating is some players are adjudicated differently on their performances but on form Daw should be playing in the forward line instead.

By rule he should dominate this week with the backline Hawthorn is going to field. Let's hope Schoey doesn't come in with no match practice and ends up in the best.

 

[GarnerSmash]

While I’m a fan of Jamie’s, and I don’t think there’s too much between the two of them, this is probably one of those classic ‘stats don’t tell the whole story’ situations. There are other important, often more intangible strings (a few of which you've mentioned) to Spud's bow – experience/on-field leadership, quality decision-making, superb ability to read the play, crunching defensive spoils, knowing just the right time to leave a player to provide a chop out for a teammate, being able to man up on taller/bigger-bodied opponents, and raw (grappling) strength. Positives that are (for the most part) hard to quantify in statistical terms, but are apparent to anyone watching him play, circa now.

(That's not to suggest that there aren't a few 'intangibles' where JMac has the edge.)

Said it before and I’ll say it again – I think Spud’s much more important to the team than he is given credit for. (Around here, anyway). At this point in time (and with the form he’s in...even though you said to discount current form), I’d take Spud over JMac.

On this, it was interesting to listen to the JMac interview on SEN the other night. I recommend it to anyone who thinks that selection is based purely on ability of the player when involved in the play. Coaches ask their group (defenders, mids forward) how player A is travelling and how they fit in with the group, to which the group will comment on how much they enjoy/dislike having the player in the back 6, how much easier/worse they make life for each other with their talk, experience, ability to cover off for each other etc. So whilst we look at how players go one on one, how many times the get the ball etc. there is far more to player selection than what we see and know from watching. Continuity and effectiveness of the groups within the team and the things that influence that are just as important as any other aspect of the game.

 

[GarnerSmash]

The old intangibles argument. Sorry Tron i dont buy it. Drew lacks physicality and mongrel, intangibles we need. He needs to hit packs and hurt people with his frame but he doesn't. Yes he chases hard but so would Harper if he came in.

What's frustrating is some players are adjudicated differently on their performances but on form Daw should be playing in the forward line instead.

By rule he should dominate this week with the backline Hawthorn is going to field. Let's hope Schoey doesn't come in with no match practice and ends up in the best.

I don't think it matters if you buy it or not, the coaching staff believe in it and work to those aspects of the team game. Overall Dish has been excellent at doing as the role requires and getting on the end of play to average 49 goals a season over the last 4 years. No wonder they will continue to follow suit.

 

[GarnerSmash]

shouldn't this conversation be moved to another thread about the up coming game, or one about Drew, or one about Wells? It has nothing to do with Loogie.

All these player threads get so confusing. I wonder if the coaches have the same issues in Selection meetings. Discussing moving Brown from left forward pocket to right forward pocket and all if a sudden Jacobs is dropped and the amputation of Garners leg has changed to a 2 week nose bleed.

Done mate.

 

[B4Bear]

Out: Turner (rested)
In: Wells (as sub)

Promote Dumont to the starting 21