List Mgmt. Clark meets with Cats

[catempire]

Which would be interesting, as he's the most mobile of the lot of them.

Rightly or wrongly, I think what they want is someone to fly for marks deep forward and Brown has his strengths but that isn't one of them.

 

[Lana]

I understand that concern. Murdoch will be thereabouts too. Kersten isn't a tall in my view. He's a quick medium.

We need to find a pair for Hawk and some speed at their feet. There's no solution yet.

The problem with Kersten at the moment is that he doesn't get enough of the ball to be considered anything but a KPF, just because he is 191cm doesn't mean that he will be able to play like a midsize forward. The reason why teams can zone off at the moment is because our younger KPF don't demand the ball enough, and when they do they aren't be rewarded by there own teammates. Which means the opponent can at times afford to send there third and fourth defender to them and double team Hawkins. Our forward pressure has dropped because we were playing our HFF as extra midfielders, which we need to do due to our ruck situation. We have players who can provide plenty of Forward pressure, McCarthy and Murdoch(who we used as a midsized forward rather than a defensive forward)

 

[Tackle_happy]

That's not the issue I have, it moreso centres on what we do with Walker, Kersten and Vardy. They can't all play in the one side, it makes us too top heavy. Geelong going hard at Clark suggests one or more of these players are expendable and could be traded.

I also share the same views as vinum coupe regarding our backline. That's a real issue for me, and bringing Frawley in and not having any retirements only compounds our issues. We're simply too one dimensional down back. It spells disaster playing all of Frawley, Lonergan, Rivers, Mackie, Taylor and Enright down back.

Vardy and Kersten are different types of players.

Kersten is smaller (so small lead up forward). Vardy is a high half forward/potential second or third ruck option.

Walker would be the one where there "may" be similarities in position requirements.

 

[Teriyakicat]

That's just bad management and bad selection. You shouldn't pick three players for a two-player role (ruck), just in case one or both of your proper ruckmen aren't fit enough. If they aren't fit enough, then two questions ask themselves: Why aren't they fit enough, and why were they selected? And the net result was it continued to screw with our forward setup (remember how McIntosh had magically turned into a gun CHF for a few weeks mid-season?), and development was neglected.

One good thing that happened was that we found out a few things about Blicavs who, if both ruckmen had been fit, might've gone back to play in the VFL.
And, because the coaches wanted him in the team, he got a chance to show a bit when he replaced Lonergan in the backline- so one player got quite a bit of development.

 

[catempire]

The problem with Kersten at the moment is that he doesn't get enough of the ball to be considered anything but a KPF, just because he is 191cm doesn't mean that he will be able to play like a midsize forward. The reason why teams can zone off at the moment is because our younger KPF don't demand the ball enough, and when they do they aren't be rewarded by there own teammates. Which means the opponent can at times afford to send there third and fourth defender to them and double team Hawkins. Our forward pressure has dropped because we were playing our HFF as extra midfielders, which we need to do due to our ruck situation. We have players who can provide plenty of Forward pressure, McCarthy and Murdoch(who we used as a midsized forward rather than a defensive forward)

Certainly that was the case with Kersten in his last month. In his first month though he was looking dangerous enough to command respect. I think he can recapture that and even improve on it.

 

[Tackle_happy]

The problem with Kersten at the moment is that he doesn't get enough of the ball to be considered anything but a KPF, just because he is 191cm doesn't mean that he will be able to play like a midsize forward. The reason why teams can zone off at the moment is because our younger KPF don't demand the ball enough, and when they do they aren't be rewarded by there own teammates. Which means the opponent can at times afford to send there third and fourth defender to them and double team Hawkins. Our forward pressure has dropped because we were playing our HFF as extra midfielders, which we need to do due to our ruck situation. We have players who can provide plenty of Forward pressure, McCarthy and Murdoch(who we used as a midsized forward rather than a defensive forward)

Only 9 games into his senior career means Kersten was never going to really demand anything. Be it confidence (aside from the first couple of games and the adrenalin rushing through) or getting used to the structures, pace and team mates (training with them only helps so much).

The more games he plays the more he will demand the ball, the more the rest of the team will look to him as an option etc. We saw in the last couple of games that Walker started clunking them and all of a sudden was demanding the ball more - his confidence growing and as such his output was wonderful to watch.

Look back on Hawkins - same sort of thing applies. Took him quite a while to find his feet (and much talk on here of him being useless!).

 

[Beth]

Only 9 games into his senior career means Kersten was never going to really demand anything. Be it confidence (aside from the first couple of games and the adrenalin rushing through) or getting used to the structures, pace and team mates (training with them only helps so much).

The more games he plays the more he will demand the ball, the more the rest of the team will look to him as an option etc. We saw in the last couple of games that Walker started clunking them and all of a sudden was demanding the ball more - his confidence growing and as such his output was wonderful to watch.

Look back on Hawkins - same sort of thing applies. Took him quite a while to find his feet (and much talk on here of him being useless!).

Oh god yes, the things I said about Tommy a few years ago aren't worth repeating

 

[TheWoodenSlug]

They need to be less sentimental full stop.

Agree, especially in regards to team selection. Personally, I am all for bringing in both Clark and Frawley because I don't think you can ever have too many talented big guys, BUT the MC have to be prepared to play senior players in the VFL if their form or the opposition match ups demand it. We did it with Mooney and Milburn in 2011 and we all know how that turned out. Hawthorn this year put the likes of McEvoy, Sewell & Hale back to the VFL, dropped Sewell during the finals series and dropped Ceglar and Simpkin for the grand final. Not much sentimentality shown there, but selecting players that are in the best form isn't revolutionary, it's just smart.

If it means that champion players such as Bartel, Kelly, Enright, Lonergan etc, or even the new recruits Clark and Frawley themselves (if we do land them) have extended runs in the VFL when Bews, Hartman, Lang, Kolo etc are in better form, so be it.

 

[Partridge]

Hawthorn this year put the likes of McEvoy, Sewell & Hale back to the VFL, dropped Sewell during the finals series and dropped Ceglar and Simpkin for the grand final. Not much sentimentality shown there, but selecting players that are in the best form isn't revolutionary, it's just smart.

If it means that champion players such as Bartel, Kelly, Enright, Lonergan etc, or even the new recruits Clark and Frawley themselves (if we do land them)
have extended runs in the VFL when Bews, Hartman, Lang, Kolo etc are in better form, so be it.

Totally agree. And I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Turbocat]

I reckon they'll go:

Kersten, Walker, McCarthy
Clark, Hawkins, Bartel

They want another tall deep with Hawk to draw some fire in addition to CHF, whoever that may be.

Like the marking but its a bit slow. Kersten would to really need to get more involved up the ground. Menzel as he was would appeal more if we could sneak him in there.

 

[Partridge]

Like the marking but its a bit slow. Kersten would to really need to get more involved up the ground. Menzel as he was would appeal more if we could sneak him in there.

Switch McCarthy for Menzel. That'll make the entire forward line completely immobile.

 

[TheWoodenSlug]

Totally agree. And I'll believe it when I see it.

Yeah, what (I think) they should do and what they actually do is not always the same.

I will defend the MC somewhat because, as mentioned, they showed in 2011 that they are (or were, at least) willing to make the hard but necessary calls. And while I do have concerns over whether Scott has softened and lost some of that ruthlessness, I don't think there were any senior players that showed bad enough form to be dropped throughout the year (though giving them regular rests is another story altogether) and it was only really at the end of the season (unfortunately) that a few of them showed real signs of ageing. Whether it was just a coincidence or evidence of their decline remains to be seen.

I think it is almost a given, however, that at least a few of the older players will be overtaken by their younger team mates next year and when/if it happens, I will be watching the team selections with interest to see what Scott and the MC do.

 

[Footy Smarts]

If Clark does come it's really not a good sign for Walker. It doesn't look like they plan to play Clark in the ruck and there's no way you can play Walker, Clark and Hawkins unless Clark is basically your number 1 ruck. Vardy's clearly rated higher than Walker too although injuries are obviously an issue with him. Basically Walker's in an even worse position in terms of getting a game than this year and even his glimpses of quality in the finals don't change that. Perhaps he's one they might cash in on if a good offer comes in?

The obvious other one under pressure is Brown but if he goes, in a year we'll likely have only Frawley and Taylor as key defenders. Who plays 3rd tall? Does Mackie shift to that role later in his career or do we back Hamling or Kolo who haven't played a game yet?

 

[Turbocat]

Switch McCarthy for Menzel. That'll make the entire forward line completely immobile.

To be honest we need a Linc and another small don't we. All that height and who is front and square, who is tackling and chasing? Personally id say Walker would get pushed out , and another medium /small would come in. Id try anyone of Bews/Lang or someone like Cowan as he must be in mind to be used somewhere. Hartman has talent in that are bit is not nippy to my mind.
R1 for Welller would work

 

[sauron256]

Perhaps the plan is to bring in Clark and trade one of Walker/Brown for a young developing mid or small defender. Would assume in this case that the MC see more upside in Mitch Clark than those two. Although this is only speculation of course.

Are there any teams desperate for another tall marking forward?

 

[Turbocat]

If Clark does come it's really not a good sign for Walker. It doesn't look like they plan to play Clark in the ruck and there's no way you can play Walker, Clark and Hawkins unless Clark is basically your number 1 ruck. Vardy's clearly rated higher than Walker too although injuries are obviously an issue with him. Basically Walker's in an even worse position in terms of getting a game than this year and even his glimpses of quality in the finals don't change that. Perhaps he's one they might cash in on if a good offer comes in?

The obvious other one under pressure is Brown but if he goes, in a year we'll likely have only Frawley and Taylor as key defenders. Who plays 3rd tall? Does Mackie shift to that role later in his career or do we back Hamling or Kolo who haven't played a game yet?

As I have been saying pretty much. If in some way they see Walker in the side fine. But if they see him as a backup , Id just see what his value is. His finals would have got attention. High marks, goals , 22 under 20 games. Its why I wonder about bringing in Clark.

I guess it gets back to what "good offer" is.

 

[Moneypenny]

If Clark does come it's really not a good sign for Walker. It doesn't look like they plan to play Clark in the ruck and there's no way you can play Walker, Clark and Hawkins unless Clark is basically your number 1 ruck. Vardy's clearly rated higher than Walker too although injuries are obviously an issue with him. Basically Walker's in an even worse position in terms of getting a game than this year and even his glimpses of quality in the finals don't change that. Perhaps he's one they might cash in on if a good offer comes in?

The obvious other one under pressure is Brown but if he goes, in a year we'll likely have only Frawley and Taylor as key defenders. Who plays 3rd tall? Does Mackie shift to that role later in his career or do we back Hamling or Kolo who haven't played a game yet?

So true, it's annoying that MB is being squeezed out now because in very little time we'll have plenty of spots in the backline that he could quite easily fill. Right now we have JKolo, Thurlow, Bews and Hamling but none of them have had the experience of playing back like Mitch has. It's a s**t combination of circumstances that mean we're most likely to need his type of player at the time we won't have him at our disposal.

 

[Turbocat]

Perhaps the plan is to bring in Clark and trade one of Walker/Brown for a young developing mid or small defender. Would assume in this case that the MC see more upside in Mitch Clark than those two. Although this is only speculation of course.

Are there any teams desperate for another tall marking forward?

woof , woof

 

[sauron256]

woof , woof

Yep, the Blues were another that came to mind.

 

[Turbocat]

Yep, the Blues were another that came to mind.

well they have been linked to a dogs player Jones , so maybe even more spots at the Dogs. Would we trade him for their R2?

 

[cynical]

Should only get Clark if he is to play 2nd ruck, getting him as a second KPF is a terrible move. It forces Walker out who even though isn't nearly as good as Clark is much younger and better matches our list profile.

Brown would be more likely to stay as a 3rd tall or defender since Frawley likely goes to the Hawks.

As a second ruck Clark offers way more than Blicavs especially when it comes to going forward and taking marks but it's hard to see the golden child not being played.

 

[Partridge]

So true, it's annoying that MB is being squeezed out now because in very little time we'll have plenty of spots in the backline that he could quite easily fill. Right now we have JKolo, Thurlow, Bews and Hamling but none of them have had the experience of playing back like Mitch has. It's a s**t combination of circumstances that mean we're most likely to need his type of player at the time we won't have him at our disposal.

It's not really a combination of circumstances, it's plain poor management. A few of us at the start of this season, and others (far more perceptively) during last year, argued that they needed to give guys like Brown games whenever possible. Rest Lonergan or Taylor or Rivers whenever you possibly can, and it gives another game to a young player. In 2-3 seasons it could be the difference in a player being on 15 games or being on 30. The key word is contingency. We just don't seem to plan for bad scenarios now.

 

[Partridge]

To be honest we need a Linc and another small don't we. All that height and who is front and square, who is tackling and chasing? Personally id say Walker would get pushed out , and another medium /small would come in. Id try anyone of Bews/Lang or someone like Cowan as he must be in mind to be used somewhere. Hartman has talent in that are bit is not nippy to my mind.
R1 for Welller would work

We do. I'd say we need:

- Hawkins + another key forward
- One mid-sized forward, let's say Bartel
- At least two quick small forwards who can tackle like maniacs. McCarthy and Murdoch would not be the worst options IF they can apply enough pressure.
- The one who's left can either be a small or a tall forward, but only if that tall forward moves very well and can lead high up the ground.

I can't see it working any other way.

 

[vinum coupe]

Totally agree. And I'll believe it when I see it.

To be fair, Balme was questioned on the older guys like Kelly.
I can't remember his exact words, but it was something like "Those guys are going to have to accept VFL time next year if their form stays as it is"
So maybe they are seeing what we are.

But I agree, will believe it when it actually happens.

I think I said it yesterday. I really hope they can sell it to a few of them that they MUST play 4 VFL games at some stage in 2015 to help the growth of the club.
Wouldn't be an easy sell!!

 

[Partridge]

To be fair, Balme was questioned on the older guys like Kelly.
I can't remember his exact words, but it was something like "Those guys are going to have to accept VFL time next year if their form stays as it is"
So maybe they are seeing what we are.

But I agree, will believe it when it actually happens.

I think I said it yesterday. I really hope they can sell it to a few of them that they MUST play 4 VFL games at some stage in 2015 to help the growth of the club.
Wouldn't be an easy sell!!

Tough. They're all loyal selfless clubmen apparently. It shouldn't be an issue.