Collingwood Almanac 2014

[Robroy22]

It is amazing how over rated Leigh Brown is on this site purely because of the quality of the players around him. If you look at his stats he hardly set the world fire but obviously played an important role in winning the premiership. His numbers are very comparable to Jesse White's yet many call White a failure and Brown a success. Our biggest mature age recruit flop is Cam Wood. Every other recruit matches output with what we gave up for them.

"If you look at his stats he hardly set the world fire"
I don't think they currently have a stat for what Leroy brought to our 2010-2011 teams. Jono Brown had it and Plugger had it, Lethal did and Dermie as well, Billy Duckworth, Wayne Johnson, Rhys......are you getting it yet?
The imperceptible thing about Leigh Brown circa 2010-2011 was his aggression and his ability to instil confidence in the players around him. He was our "enforcer" and that's a stat that never shows up in the team totals.
In big games where every half a percent counts, that simple fear that hovers in an opposition player's mind about where "the anvil" might be and what he's likely to do next helps his team sometimes more than 20 cheap possessions.

 

[Knightmare]

It is amazing how over rated Leigh Brown is on this site purely because of the quality of the players around him. If you look at his stats he hardly set the world fire but obviously played an important role in winning the premiership. His numbers are very comparable to Jesse White's yet many call White a failure and Brown a success. Our biggest mature age recruit flop is Cam Wood. Every other recruit matches output with what we gave up for them.

Brown took more marks and was a more reliable marking presence. The other critical thing with Brown is he provided a significantly greater physical presence and hard edge around the ground. He was also a significantly better tackler really burying guys in tackles and doing damaging while also tackling at a far greater frequency. That's why he was the better footballer.

Brown wasn't a high level player but as a 19-22 guy on a good team was a sufficient role player for what we needed when we had no suitable alternatives as that relief ruck who could also contribute in the front half.

White on the other hand I'd class as insufficiently productive to be a best 22 player. Excellent athlete by position and a very good ground level player for a tall. The issues are like Brown he also isn't a massive accumulator or goalkicker but he in addition to this isn't as reliable overhead, isn't that same super hard aggressive guy and not that same freak tackler as an infrequent tackler he isn't someone who offers enough. Other than his athleticism and better than average ground level ability he lacks a point of difference and something he does really well to be best 22 relevant. Brown had his hard edge and tackling which was his calling card and made him a relevant factor, even though he was only a small component.

 

[Shaneprice97]

What kind of Key Defender was Michael Hartley? Lockdown? Rebounding? Intercept marking?

I feel the club didn't give him enough of a crack.

 

[Knightmare]

What kind of Key Defender was Michael Hartley? Lockdown? Rebounding? Intercept marking?

I feel the club didn't give him enough of a crack.

Lockdown. So we had a few options and some replication by type. Additionally in his time at the club he had his injury problems. The lad could/can still play some good footy. Reliable lock down guy who has the athleticism/pace to go with guys as well as the strength, 1v1 and concentration. As a previous NSW/ACT selection I tend to feel the future potential for upside is/was there to become a possible best 22 player for a team and now that he is having a healthier run with injury he's going well at VFL level. Arguably the best key defender in the VFL with Matt Sully from Geelong that other good key defender in the VFL.

 

[TradeDraft]

Lockdown. So we had a few options and some replication by type. Additionally in his time at the club he had his injury problems. The lad could/can still play some good footy. Reliable lock down guy who has the athleticism/pace to go with guys as well as the strength, 1v1 and concentration. As a previous NSW/ACT selection I tend to feel the future potential for upside is/was there to become a possible best 22 player for a team and now that he is having a healthier run with injury he's going well at VFL level. Arguably the best key defender in the VFL with Matt Sully from Geelong that other good key defender in the VFL.

So did we make a Mistake of De-Listing Hartley so Quickly?

 

[Knightmare]

So did we make a Mistake of De-Listing Hartley so Quickly?

I'd argue so.

Same story with Ceglar, McCarthy and L.Davis (the latter less delisted as no contract was agreed to).

 

[Knightmare]

Ceglar would be handy.

He'd certainly suffice as a depth ruckman and more than capable depth behind Grundy and Witts if not competing with them for a regular position in the senior side.

 

[TradeDraft]

Ceglar would be handy.

He'd certainly suffice as a depth ruckman and more than capable depth behind Grundy and Witts if not competing with them for a regular position in the senior side.

Very Much so. He does not have the Upside of Grundy or Witts but still would be very handy at the moment as a more Mature Age Ruckman.

I also did not mind his Forward work at VFL Level. I was thinking he was going to become the player to play the L Brown role that Bucks wants.

As I posted before I was like WTF? when I read he was De-Listed

 

[The Don]

Brown took more marks and was a more reliable marking presence. The other critical thing with Brown is he provided a significantly greater physical presence and hard edge around the ground. He was also a significantly better tackler really burying guys in tackles and doing damaging while also tackling at a far greater frequency. That's why he was the better footballer.

Brown wasn't a high level player but as a 19-22 guy on a good team was a sufficient role player for what we needed when we had no suitable alternatives as that relief ruck who could also contribute in the front half.

White on the other hand I'd class as insufficiently productive to be a best 22 player. Excellent athlete by position and a very good ground level player for a tall. The issues are like Brown he also isn't a massive accumulator or goalkicker but he in addition to this isn't as reliable overhead, isn't that same super hard aggressive guy and not that same freak tackler as an infrequent tackler he isn't someone who offers enough. Other than his athleticism and better than average ground level ability he lacks a point of difference and something he does really well to be best 22 relevant. Brown had his hard edge and tackling which was his calling card and made him a relevant factor, even though he was only a small component.

His so called physical presence is very over stated especially when balanced out with the amount of stupid free kicks he gave away.
On the Bolded we had a guy called Josh Fraser who was a pretty handy relief ruck that could contribute in the front half.
The reality is Brown is viewed through rose coloured glasses because he is a premiership player.

 

[TradeDraft]

Sam Blease might be someone we need. Has Fantastic Pace

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl...037950219?sv=3397a74bf0e04ccbed61c8e2317c4ff2

 

[ClaytonM]

His so called physical presence is very over stated especially when balanced out with the amount of stupid free kicks he gave away.
On the Bolded we had a guy called Josh Fraser who was a pretty handy relief ruck that could contribute in the front half.
The reality is Brown is viewed through rose coloured glasses because he is a premiership player.

I agree. White has not set the world on fire but I do not think he is that far short of Leigh Brown. And if we had a second tall to complement Cloke he may improve further.

For me the jury is still out on White.

 

[danielnajdek]

Wouldn't mind Tapscott but that's just me.

 

[Robroy22]

His so called physical presence is very over stated especially when balanced out with the amount of stupid free kicks he gave away.
On the Bolded we had a guy called Josh Fraser who was a pretty handy relief ruck that could contribute in the front half.
The reality is Brown is viewed through rose coloured glasses because he is a premiership player.

His so called physical presence is very over stated...if you say so, I just get the feeling that the players liked Leroy's presence more than Josh's in the heat of the battle?

 

[PieBeast]

nothing to write home about but hilarious nevertheless

 

[Robroy22]

nothing to write home about but hilarious nevertheless

Yep, have always loved watching that one. Warnock sort of looks like...."why did I try and pick on this guy?"

 

[mike123]

If Blease was delisted would you pick him up?

 

[rustyg70]

If, and it's a BIG IF that Beams wants to go to Brisbane, how about this three way trade.

Beams to Brisbane.
Aish and 1st round pick to Adelaide.
Tex Walker plus 2nd round pick or Dangerfield to Collingwood.

 

[TradeDraft]

 

[Knightmare]

Very Much so. He does not have the Upside of Grundy or Witts but still would be very handy at the moment as a more Mature Age Ruckman.

I also did not mind his Forward work at VFL Level. I was thinking he was going to become the player to play the L Brown role that Bucks wants.

As I posted before I was like WTF? when I read he was De-Listed

Ceglar was always capable up forward and showed even in his days with us that he could take some marks up forward and hit the scoreboard occasionally.

But what has happened has happened and there are no takebacks. It's not a major loss but none the less it was arguably a loss that didn't need to happen and could easily have been avoided.

His so called physical presence is very over stated especially when balanced out with the amount of stupid free kicks he gave away.
On the Bolded we had a guy called Josh Fraser who was a pretty handy relief ruck that could contribute in the front half.
The reality is Brown is viewed through rose coloured glasses because he is a premiership player.

Josh Fraser by 2010 was finished and seemed that season to just give up with the recruitment of Jolly.

Brown was basically for this reason introduced into the senior team to take Fraser's role.

Fraser was clearly the better talent and had the stronger career and could have been a part of that best 22 in 2010 given he was good both forward and through the ruck when he wanted to be but when you consider the decline of his game and his lack of interest playing second fiddle to Jolly and he was behind Brown at the selection table.

Wouldn't mind Tapscott but that's just me.

Tapscott has a real physical presence to him and I loved his game as a junior looking like a shorter, less athletic Luke Hodge.

The issues while he is physical as anything he doesn't find enough of the footy, isn't fit enough, isn't quick enough, lacks some consistency by foot and most importantly hasn't shown the improvement or development since getting drafted which suggests limited scope for further development. I also don't see a position for him inside our best 22 with no one position/role he plays better than any of our existing players.

Wouldn't say no if he wanted to join our VFL side though.

If Blease was delisted would you pick him up?

Nope. Not even as a rookie. I'd hope for better.

Excellent athlete with his linebreaking ability and can use the footy and do some damage offensively. Just doesn't find enough of the footy. Doesn't win the footy or do any of the hard stuff. Gets knocked off the ball easier than anyone else in the game. Doesn't run defensively.

He is a good state leaguer but shouldn't be on an AFL list given his lack of improvement since entering the system. Also disappointing has been his inability to perform a consistent role or get a regular position on a weak Melbourne team also lacking run. If you don't get it under Paul Roos you can't get it for anyone and he still hasn't got it so a definite pass for me. He's at a stage where we know who he is and who he is isn't good enough.

 

[mike123]

If, and it's a BIG IF that Beams wants to go to Brisbane, how about this three way trade.

Beams to Brisbane.
Aish and 1st round pick to Adelaide.
Tex Walker plus 2nd round pick or Dangerfield to Collingwood.

Would rather Aish and the first rounder than Tex and the second rounder

 

[TradeDraft]

Nope. Not even as a rookie. I'd hope for better.

Excellent athlete with his linebreaking ability and can use the footy and do some damage offensively. Just doesn't find enough of the footy. Doesn't win the footy or do any of the hard stuff. Gets knocked off the ball easier than anyone else in the game. Doesn't run defensively.

He is a good state leaguer but shouldn't be on an AFL list given his lack of improvement since entering the system. Also disappointing has been his inability to perform a consistent role or get a regular position on a weak Melbourne team also lacking run. If you don't get it under Paul Roos you can't get it for anyone and he still hasn't got it so a definite pass for me. He's at a stage where we know who he is and who he is isn't good enough.

Well you pick up anyone from Melbourne you be pretty dumb

 

[mike123]

Well you pick up anyone from Melbourne you be pretty dumb

Depends, the problem is Melbourne haven't been able to develop their players, if we picked up a Melbourne player I'd back the club to improve him.

 

[Knightmare]

If, and it's a BIG IF that Beams wants to go to Brisbane, how about this three way trade.

Beams to Brisbane.
Aish and 1st round pick to Adelaide.
Tex Walker plus 2nd round pick or Dangerfield to Collingwood.

Big trades like this generally don't happen and are near on not worth discussing.

In this trade scenario Adelaide wouldn't move Tex or Danger under any circumstance. Aish is good but not a proven star as Walker and Dangerfield both are and not even multiple first round picks would change their stance or interest in being involved in this trade.

If Brisbane want Beams they'd need to offer two of:
Hanley, Rich and Aish.

If Gold Coast want Beams they'd need to offer two of:
McKenzie, Lynch, Bennell, Dixon and Kolodjashnij.

Given Beams will be a free agent next year none of these deals will happen and Brisbane will attempt to entice him by offering the strongest monetary offer to draw his interest and possible signature.

 

[Knightmare]

Would rather Aish and the first rounder than Tex and the second rounder

Really? I definitely wouldn't.

Aish is a very good talent and a very good long term player but not a franchise player.

Tex is a franchise key forward and top 10 key forward in the game. With Cloke struggling without a top quality second option and Reid constantly injured he'd be a great fit and a great choice as a deep option to allow Cloke to play more up the ground. I expect he'll hit back with a strongest season next year and re-establish himself as a star forward with that second year back when players usually get back what they've lost with the time out from a serious injury.

A first round pick so early doesn't appeal greatly to me. A top 5 pick is hardly better than a top 12 or top 13 pick this year.

 

[TradeDraft]

Depends, the problem is Melbourne haven't been able to develop their players, if we picked up a Melbourne player I'd back the club to improve him.

What players are Dee’s think we could Turn Around?