Opinion Essendon Hird / drugs / legal saga

[Jade]

Miraculously recovered from a career threatening foot injury due to a friendship with one Shane Charters.

Now, where have I heard that name before...

It's no coincidence that Charters has 2 framed photos on his wall.

Shane '1 year wonder' Woewoedin.

And

James 'shocked to be sitting here' Hird.

Hmmm...... possibly the same place I heard of the Mexican, no wait New Mexican, NO WAIT Mexican drug.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Folks,

Posts about Hird / drugs / Essendon legal cases have been moved out of the pre-match thread and into here.

Please constrain those discussions to this thread

Thanks

 

[loki04]

I can't?

There is a very real possibility that the report used to penalise club and staff was illegally presented. You do realise that 'technicality' is potentially a serious breach of the law.

Now unlike a few, I'm not going to try predict the future - but I'm very much going to wait and see what the outcome is when this debacle is over before I try and assign 'innocence' or 'guilt' (or somewhere in between).

Lol those laws should be abolished, just like illegally finding a murder weapon with out a warrant, it shouldn't absolve the murderer of the crime HE committed.

 

[Jade]

Lol those laws should be abolished, just like illegally finding a murder weapon with out a warrant, it shouldn't absolve the murderer of the crime HE committed.

Very slippery slope mate. Whilst I have no legal expertise, those laws you speak of are there to prevent an abuse of power or process - an abuse that would be proven if the Federal Court were to rule in Essendons favour (for the record, I don't believe they will).

 

[morgoth]

Essendon are filthy cheats who can't even accept that they deserved to be punished.

They have done massive damage to the game, hopefully they go broke.

 

[Jade]

Essendon are filthy cheats who can't even accept that they deserved to be punished.

They have done massive damage to the game, hopefully they go broke.

I fully accept that Essendon deserved punishment for its crime, so does the club.

So I'm not sure your posts makes a lot of sense?

 

[popin]

I have cycling family and friends who race in Europe as pro's and one of them got banned for 6 months for using a sinus spray not checking the back of label what was in it when he was 18. He maned up and took it on chin saying it was he's fault as he has been educated that you need to look up on asada or wada website what you can or cant take.
Also told don't let anybody or team dr give you anything with out double checking your self as it's your responsibility as an athlete to do this, so just like all young afl players get told to do with new draftees and the club education sessions on drugs and supplements so it's no excuse as age isn't a factor.
Lance Armstrong got a life time ban and didn't have a positive test so...
I really hope your hot jade posting on here lol ;-) what is the difference between caff and hocking, nothing. hird you fool.

 

[eddiebankbalance]

lol@theEssendonSaga

 

[Jade]

I have cycling family and friends who race in Europe as pro's and one of them got banned for 6 months for using a sinus spray not checking the back of label what was in it when he was 18. He maned up and took it on chin saying it was he's fault as he has been educated that you need to look up on asada or wada website what you can or cant take.
Also told don't let anybody or team dr give you anything with out double checking your self as it's your responsibility as an athlete to do this, so just like all young afl players get told to do with new draftees and the club education sessions on drugs and supplements so it's no excuse as age isn't a factor.

I find the bolded quite interesting. Are new draftees told this? The reason I ask of course, is we've seen numerous examples of players BEFORE this scandal broke quite publicly (and with the benefit of hindsight quite foolishly) admitting they did NOT know what they were given.

Luke Hodge, Brent Guerra, Chris Judd just to name a few.

This, along with the claims of several former coaches admitting they generally had no idea what was being administered as part of their supplements programs.

Now it's these statements that lead to a statement that I don't believe any level headed person could disagree with:

"Generally speaking, players simply did what they were told"

Lance Armstrong got a life time ban and didn't have a positive test so...

Actually Lance Armstrong DID have +ve tests. Several times in fact.

He also had sworn testimony from teammates that he was doping, along with accusations from other riders.

Trying to compare Lance Armstrong to Essendon players is a very, very weak case for those reasons alone.

I really hope your hot jade posting on here lol ;-) what is the difference between caff and hocking, nothing. hird you fool.

That sentence makes very little sense, though I suspect I need to keep my back firmly pressed against a wall for some reason.

 

[popin]

I find the bolded quite interesting. Are new draftees told this? The reason I ask of course, is we've seen numerous examples of players BEFORE this scandal broke quite publicly (and with the benefit of hindsight quite foolishly) admitting they did NOT know what they were given.

Luke Hodge, Brent Guerra, Chris Judd just to name a few.

This, along with the claims of several former coaches admitting they generally had no idea what was being administered as part of their supplements programs.

Now it's these statements that lead to a statement that I don't believe any level headed person could disagree with:

"Generally speaking, players simply did what they were told"



Actually Lance Armstrong DID have +ve tests. Several times in fact.

He also had sworn testimony from teammates that he was doping, along with accusations from other riders.

Trying to compare Lance Armstrong to Essendon players is a very, very weak case for those reasons alone.



That sentence makes very little sense, though I suspect I need to keep my back firmly pressed against a wall for some reason.

Lance never got caught tool, they still have no positive drug tests, and he still got banned just like you will.
You cant have different rules for different sports under the same asda and wada code. You are un-educated in drugs in sport and when afl players get drafted on draft week all draftees get told about drugs and supplements and also at there clubs. If essendon didn't do this it's there fault and still guilty.
You cant have an excuse i just followed everyone else because every athlete in the world would use it to get away with not being responsible for your own actions witch they have already tried to do but falied like marion jones. it's up to the individual to say no.
You talk crap jade sorry but every olympic athlete in this country is pissed off with essendon trying to get away with trying to cheat the rules.

 

[Vankri]

It seems to be near impossible to engage in a rational discussion about the doping allegations with Essendon supporters. People take their club colours very seriously and would reject any negativity aimed at it in any possible way, displaying clear denial and cognitive dissonance. Considering the accusations here are probably the worst you could do as a club (in a sporting sense), you can see why they would let their wishful thinking and emotions take over the rational side of their brain.

There is absolutely NO hypothetical scenario involving Essendon not using TB4 that would explain what has happened in the past 18 months. They either have used it or don't know what they have and have not used, (but at the very least Dank/Robinson would know and he was Essendon). It's been a long journey and if Essendon was convinced they never, ever used TB4 we would have heard it by now. TB4 is a prohibited substance and Essendon have been accused of using it, if they were falsely accused, we would have heard Little or someone else say 'we never used TB4", outright, straight away. And Dank in his interview yesterday wouldn't say 'I can't respond' when asked if players were administered TB4 but categorically deny it.

They seem to have used a substance they thought wasn't banned under some elaborate plan from their sports scientist to circumvent rules (compounding chemist) and that's why they come up with statements like "we believe we haven't ingested anything illegal or harmful" and fight the investigation on process (the 'lawfulness' of the investigation) rather than substance.

Sometimes you just have to observe and logically analyse the behaviour of different actors to get the truth of the story, even when none of the actors are telling it outright.

 

[popin]

if dr Reid and Hird said jobe jump off the west gate , i guess he would do it then with out thinking i'm not to sure about this for my health.

 

[Jade]

Lance never got caught tool, they still have no positive drug tests, and he still got banned just like you will.

Don't call me a tool for a start.

And yes, Lance did indeed have positive tests.

EPO, 'steroid' (rather broad term). For various reasons (you are welcome to view the USADA report on it) none were used as an infraction point.

 

[jmac70]

Do we really have to have this thread on our board? There are dozens of threads in the HTB where people can debate the issues to their hearts content. Nothing positive will be achieved in this thread.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

Don't call me a tool for a start.

And yes, Lance did indeed have positive tests.

EPO, 'steroid' (rather broad term). For various reasons (you are welcome to view the USADA report on it) none were used as an infraction point.

Are you talking about cortisone?

 

[swifty]

jade he had no positive test, they thought they had one test that raised alarms in switzerland but it was chucked in the bin by wada so no positive test . they never caught him on a test tool. stop searching google for your answers.

i think you may need to do a google search yourself..

 

[popin]

lance never tested positive for urine or blood tests, he's old team mates got investigated from the usa wada body thing and gave them a 6 month ban deal if they dobbed in armstrong so they can race again.

 

[TradeDraft]

Hope was Smash the Peptide Bombers

 

[Jade]

Do we really have to have this thread on our board? There are dozens of threads in the HTB where people can debate the issues to their hearts content. Nothing positive will be achieved in this thread.

Completely up to you and yours mate.

Personally I enjoy discussing it in a forum that is somewhere in between the insulated environment on our board, and the lynch mob on the HTB.

 

[Stripes B and W]

I am actually finding Jades comments of interest, and good on him/her for posting here in discussing this saga. I don't quite get the Caff hatred; isnt that a little extreme?
All he is doing is applying the defensive principles of, say , a KPD and using them in a different place on the field? Given HIrd was clearly a terrificly skilled footballer and vasting superior to Caff, not sure we should draw anything other conclusion apart that obvious one. Hird's part in this saga, whatever it might be, has nothing to do with Caff being an ugly' footballer surely. If he infringes, ping him as you would Clokes opponent...

Surely the EFC and others are within their right to declare the ASDA/AFL investigation illegal if, indeed, it is so. Equally, this will have no impact of what was, and was not done.
I think we have to accept the EFC itself, has been punished for it's lack of governence as detailed by Ziggy, not alot of point in continuing to whip them over that any further.
Things that concern me ( as a football lover and non EFC follower of course ) aside from the investigations findings and truths -

Hird being paid whilst suspended and being recontracted with this issue unresolved; seems a very odd way of managing an employee other than showing him total support and showing contempt to the investigator.
The total lack of real support and 'love' shown to HIrd by his peers within and without the existing media. Lloyd, Lucas, McVeigh have not exactly been shouting the house down with glowing character references ( nor has the deposed Robson )
Hird and Evans huge fall out.
The size of the shadow HIrd himself casts versus that of the EFC, seems a touch out of proportion.
His personalisation and scale of defensive PR mounted to belittle and humiliate the AFL and it's former CEO in an affair whose essence was wholly a creation of the EFC.

Any avid footy follower really should feel for the players and real fans of the EFC who go about their employment and support in good faith and have had to deal with these shambolics happenings for way too long.

 

[mattys123]

My thoughts on this whole saga;

 

[Jade]

It seems to be near impossible to engage in a rational discussion about the doping allegations with Essendon supporters.

Well here's one EFC supporter that is happy to discuss it in a rational way. I'd probably encourage you to remember that an impasse in discussion does not necessarily make a person irrational.

There is absolutely NO hypothetical scenario involving Essendon not using TB4 that would explain what has happened in the past 18 months. They either have used it or don't know what they have and have not used, (but at the very least Dank/Robinson would know and he was Essendon).

This is just a quick copy and paste from a post on the EFC board:

Certainly is painting a story.

Sequence of events as I am reading them:

- Essendon under Knights is very poor. The supporter base is incredibly restless and feel like Knights is making Essendon 'un-Essendon'.
- Knights is given the boot.
- Hird is named coach, and subsequently brings Thompson on board in a very deliberate act to appeal to the masses
- Thompson is a fan of the Weapon, and as part of the staffing restructure recommends him to the wider team, and is hired.
- Hird, himself a perfectionist, believes that Essendon is well behind the other clubs in sports science and has a desire to implement a supplements program.
- Weapon recommends Dank, and he becomes involved with the club.
- Hird dictates to the high performance team that the supplement program MUST be legal
- Dank seeks assurances from WADA / ASADA on the legality of several substances (including AOD-9604). Dank also believes he has 'loopholes' to get around the legalities of various other substances.
- Supplement program begins.
- Some players are a little wary of what they are being injected with due to the sharp increase and diversification. They seek assurances from the club that everything is above board.
- Club responds with consent forms that list the name and basic details of all substances, and also that they are completely WADA compliant.
- In correspondence, Dank requests 'Thymosin' from Alavi/Charters. The described effects of substance and dosage recommendations are consistent with Thymosin Beta 4.
- Shane Charters imports 'a' substance from China. He claims it is Thymosin Beta 4 (peptide x).
- Peptide x was shipped to Alavi with the labelling 'Thymosin'. Alavi claims he doesn't know what it is specifically.
- After compounding, Alavi gives peptide x to Dank for the purposes of testing.
- Dank, having declared that peptide x was not for the EFC, subsequently reports they have been destroyed by sunlight exposure and were disposed of at the testing facility.
- The facility itself has no records of receiving or destroying any substance
- Dank claims to have received a second batch of thmomodulin from Alavi for the EFC. Alavi denies this.
- Essendon players are injected with a substance they believe is thymomodulin, or by some reports the 'good' thymosin.
- Dr Reid sends a letter to Danny Corcoran outlining his concerns with the program.
- Dean Robinson is warned over his performance due to the staggering number of soft tissue injuries at Essendon
- Supplement program is halted roughly August 2012.
- ACC report names Essendon as a club of concern regarding drugs in sport
- Andrew Demetriou contacts David Evans and 'implies' that Essendon will be named in ACC report
- Essendon self reports concerns and invites ASADA to investigate.
- The great s**t storm of our time begins.

It's been a long journey and if Essendon was convinced they never, ever used TB4 we would have heard it by now. TB4 is a prohibited substance and Essendon have been accused of using it, if they were falsely accused, we would have heard Little or someone else say 'we never used TB4", outright, straight away. And Dank in his interview yesterday wouldn't say 'I can't respond' when asked if players were administered TB4 but categorically deny it.

I think it's a fair point to say the club can't prove they DIDN'T take it.

They seem to have used a substance they thought wasn't banned under some elaborate plan from their sports scientist to circumvent rules (compounding chemist) and that's why they come up with statements like "we believe we haven't ingested anything illegal or harmful" and fight the investigation on process (the 'lawfulness' of the investigation) rather than substance.

Hmmm..... what you describe here much more closely matches the circumstances surrounding AOD-9604 (which has vanished into the ether). TB4, if it was taken, appears to just be an arse up.

Sometimes you just have to observe and logically analyse the behaviour of different actors to get the truth of the story, even when none of the actors are telling it outright.

 

[Maggie5]

What did we do?

Ask your club doctor.

 

[jmac70]

Completely up to you and yours mate.

Personally I enjoy discussing it in a forum that is somewhere in between the insulated environment on our board, and the lynch mob on the HTB.

It's not a criticism of you personally. I am just sick to death of the whole thing. On your board this thread is for supporters only and on other boards, such as Carlton and Richmond, no Bombers supporters are allowed. Whilst I certainly think we are better than that I can see this thread degenerating into an ugly spectacle. Hopefully once our game has been played it will lose popularity. Let's face it, nothing is going to resolved anytime soon, if ever.

 

[Jade]

Are you talking about cortisone?

Actually no. I'm aware of those claims/accusation, but the report I was referring to used the word 'steroid'; and I didn't want to claim one was the other without being sure.