Peptides! *The * Dopers: come smell the bull****! ESSENDON FANS NOT WANTED

[Steven Tyler]

It's called a bet eachway

Let's be honest, no-one has any idea as to what will happen

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

You were always the first to tell those of us who said from the get go that they would get away with it that we had to have patience and that was happening right up until last week and now all of a sudden your reading from another book and telling us that you don't think WADA will appeal.

Only a few days ago savagelunchbox and yourself were giving us the latest lowdown. It just seems to have gone pear shaped very very quickly - so what is it that's changed

Nah, that's not true at all. I've always tried to keep people balanced, is all.

Anyone willing to say that nothing would happen and that ASADA would go nowhere, I've told them to be patient and I've presented to them reasons why ASADA weren't wasting our time.

Anyone who said this was a done deal and that Essendon would be sent back to the Stone Age with punishments, I've said that I would believe it when I see it because I have never trusted the AFL to not have some influence on where this all went.

Now that the appeals are a possibility from WADA I've been alerting people who post here to what could be very good signs of an appeal, while also saying that once again, I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Hawker55]

Am I imagining things or was there a report that the Dons/Hird essentially paid for a Herald Sun journo (guessing Robbo) to be briefed on their case. At which point Robbo basically became a shill for the club.

Reason I ask is I alluded to it on the main board in terms of Robbo being an idiot and at least Caro wasn't paid by a club for her opinions but can't find reference to it anywhere. I swear I read it!

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

It's called a bet eachway

Let's be honest, no-one has any idea as to what will happen

Yeah, there's definitely a bit of that to it.

I know what I think should happen, but if there is one thing I have learnt through years of watching how the AFL works, it's that you can never underestimate their ability to influence an outcome.

All we can do is hope that WADA decide that it's not impossible to get to the truth.

 

[tommyk72]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...endon-players-fell-apart-20150424-1mrc4l.html

Very interesting article here essentially (and I hate to say this) endorsing @Joondalup's perspective. No hard evidence = no guilt.

Will be very disapointed to get a no-result here. Essentially endorses the destruction of records. Will also make it even harder to get a conviction in a team sport because you'll essentially need someone to break ranks to be able to get a conviction ever.

 

[Steven Tyler]

Yeah, there's definitely a bit of that to it.

I know what I think should happen, but if there is one thing I have learnt through years of watching how the AFL works, it's that you can never underestimate their ability to influence an outcome.

All we can do is hope that WADA decide that it's not impossible to get to the truth.

But if WADA appeal and take it to CAS, then the AFL have no way of influencing the outcome, or so I'm led to believe, but I get your point!

The article above my post gets me more than a little shirty with this whole thing

 

[savagelunchbox]

But if WADA appeal and take it to CAS, then the AFL have no way of influencing the outcome, or so I'm led to believe, but I get your point!

The article above my post gets me more than a little shirty with this whole thing

We have been able to see that there is plenty of evidence around the place that's been leaked publicly plus the stuff that has been kept private. What will determine whether or not if it's worth appealing is whether the WADA legal team can tie it all together to give the CAS strong enough belief that Essendon were doping.

That's where Tuck In's point about WADA being unsure at this stage. Vlad made sure to 'muddy the water' enough to make it very difficult to link it all together.

Speculation won't convict the guilty, but it won't change what really happened and we know they did it.

 

[grumbleguts]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...endon-players-fell-apart-20150424-1mrc4l.html

Very interesting article here essentially (and I hate to say this) endorsing @Joondalup's perspective. No hard evidence = no guilt.

Will be very disapointed to get a no-result here. Essentially endorses the destruction of records. Will also make it even harder to get a conviction in a team sport because you'll essentially need someone to break ranks to be able to get a conviction ever.

So you are simply going to swallow the media line as well?

Reasonable doubt doesn't require absolute proof, it requires the removal of reasonable doubt.

 

[savagelunchbox]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...endon-players-fell-apart-20150424-1mrc4l.html

Very interesting article here essentially (and I hate to say this) endorsing @Joondalup's perspective. No hard evidence = no guilt.

Will be very disapointed to get a no-result here. Essentially endorses the destruction of records. Will also make it even harder to get a conviction in a team sport because you'll essentially need someone to break ranks to be able to get a conviction ever.

My guy made mention to that article to me in reference to how far the Essendon/AFL PR have infiltrated the media.

Basically, it's a nothing article. It's like asking a religious person to explain the beginning of the world and taking it as gospel (pun intended) even though they won't be able to provide any proof to what they said.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...endon-players-fell-apart-20150424-1mrc4l.html

Very interesting article here essentially (and I hate to say this) endorsing @Joondalup's perspective. No hard evidence = no guilt.

Will be very disapointed to get a no-result here. Essentially endorses the destruction of records. Will also make it even harder to get a conviction in a team sport because you'll essentially need someone to break ranks to be able to get a conviction ever.

That article tells us nothing more than we already knew, though.

Yes, the AFL decided none of the evidence could be trusted.

Yes, the reluctance of Alavi hindered the case.

Yes, the ASADA case was torn apart on the basis that the tribunal members couldn't be "100%" certain the the TB4 everyone thought they were buying, sourcing and injecting was actually TB4.

The problem is, if this is the precedent we want to set, then unless ASADA or any other local anti-doping agencies catch sportsman in the act, they'll continue to just play dumb and get away with it.

 

[savagelunchbox]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...endon-players-fell-apart-20150424-1mrc4l.html

Very interesting article here essentially (and I hate to say this) endorsing @Joondalup's perspective. No hard evidence = no guilt.

Will be very disapointed to get a no-result here. Essentially endorses the destruction of records. Will also make it even harder to get a conviction in a team sport because you'll essentially need someone to break ranks to be able to get a conviction ever.

The article has very much a Andrew Wakefield feel to it.

 

[tommyk72]

That article tells us nothing more than we already knew, though.

Yes, the AFL decided none of the evidence could be trusted.

Yes, the reluctance of Alavi hindered the case.

Yes, the ASADA case was torn apart on the basis that the tribunal members couldn't be "100%" certain the the TB4 everyone thought they were buying, sourcing and injecting was actually TB4.

The problem is, if this is the precedent we want to set, then unless ASADA or any other local anti-doping agencies catch sportsman in the act, they'll continue to just play dumb and get away with it.

Let me preface this by saying that i'm not a lawyer and well-versed in legal arguments, and also that i'm wholeheatedly hoping that Essendon get the book thrown at them. But the removal of "reasonable doubt" isn't just a matter of having something that kinda looks like it might have happened. I think we in the general public may have a watered down perception of what reasonable doubt is. It's short of a smoking gun, but a lot more than a couple of texts. Now I know there is a truckload of circumstantial evidence, but I guess what we really need is a lynchpin to bring it all together. In my mind that's Dank's and Watson's own personal admission that they thought the substance was one which is established to have been illegal. That shows intent. However, it's then necessary to prove that whatever was injected was actually that substance, which is where the link in the chain is weakest.

I think the other thing worth considering is the risk to WADA if they appeal and it fails. I'd suggest that that's strong in the back of their minds. They could do boundless damage to their own reputation if they appeal a sport body's finding and it gets knocked back. But then what's worse - that, or not appealing what appears to be systematic doping at all!

To be honest, i'm not quite sure why i'm even commenting on the thread - i'm a bit bloody over the whole thing by now (probably exactly what the AFL want...)

 

[Argy]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...endon-players-fell-apart-20150424-1mrc4l.html

Regarding this second limb, the tribunal was forced to consider whether TB4 was banned, because it's a "growth factor affecting muscle, tendon or ligament vascularisation and regenerative capacity" in humans, or because it is a "pharmacological substance" with no worldwide governmental approvals for human therapeutic use.

This last point gives me hope that the S0 angle can be pursued further by WADA.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Worth remembering.

I think this is a huge unanswered question.

Why do Essendon, Hird and everyone want to move on, without knowing what was injected into the players??

I can't think of enough adjectives to describe my bemusement at this.

Add the AFL and all of its connections through the media to this.

 

[grumbleguts]

To be honest, i'm not quite sure why i'm even commenting on the thread - i'm a bit bloody over the whole thing by now (probably exactly what the AFL want...)

Which is why I'll never stop calling them drug cheats, until the league ends in it's own excrement.

 

[Off The Couch]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...endon-players-fell-apart-20150424-1mrc4l.html

Very interesting article here essentially (and I hate to say this) endorsing @Joondalup's perspective. No hard evidence = no guilt.

Will be very disapointed to get a no-result here. Essentially endorses the destruction of records. Will also make it even harder to get a conviction in a team sport because you'll essentially need someone to break ranks to be able to get a conviction ever.

You would think it would be in the best interests of those suing the club to be the ones to break ranks - I wonder why they haven't

 

[Off The Couch]

Worth remembering.




Add the AFL and all of its connections through the media to this.

i have asked bomber posters time and time again who cheer the not guilty call and the "we told you" line, to justify how they can feel elated about an outcome that leaves us still not knowing what was injected into the players they supposedly champion for. To date I haven't had a single response

 

[threesixpio]

But if WADA appeal and take it to CAS, then the AFL have no way of influencing the outcome, or so I'm led to believe, but I get your point!

The article above my post gets me more than a little shirty with this whole thing

Yep - People know my view on the AFL fixing it. If WADA don't appeal I think it vindicates my view. (I'm really really hoping my view is NOT vindicated btw. Will be bitterly disappointed if WADA don't get Alavi and Charter in the box and we have a "true" legal resolution of this". If this happens and WADA wins I'll be more open to an AFL "fix up" at the Tribunal and be super happy to be wrong)


And spare a thought for mixed marriages today. My youngest is a Bomber (!!) and inside I'm wanting the Pies to smash them but on the outside I'm going "oh no mate - poor Bombers".

I need to take a shower - I feel dirty

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

i have asked bomber posters time and time again who cheer the not guilty call and the "we told you" line, to justify how they can feel elated about an outcome that leaves us still not knowing what was injected into the players they supposedly champion for. To date I haven't had a single response

They're too busy trying to convince themselves and everyone else that it's not what it looks like.

Clowns.

 

[Gold Member]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...endon-players-fell-apart-20150424-1mrc4l.html

Who the hell is Darren Kane, Sydney based sports lawyer??

Link to all articles: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/by/Darren-Kane

Summary:
9 articles published
100% pro * propaganda

LoL. EAD Darren you dribbling shill.

 

[randall boner]

You would think it would be in the best interests of those suing the club to be the ones to break ranks - I wonder why they haven't

Agree wondered this myself

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Who the hell is Darren Kane, Sydney based sports lawyer??

Link to all articles: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/by/Darren-Kane

Summary:
9 articles published
100% pro * propaganda

LoL. EAD Darren you dribbling shill.

HAHAHA, the flog!

 

[threesixpio]

Who the hell is Darren Kane, Sydney based sports lawyer??

Link to all articles: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/by/Darren-Kane

Summary:
9 articles published
100% pro * propaganda

LoL. EAD Darren you dribbling shill.

Wow. The media has been alarming throughout all of this (with some exceptions).

 

[IschenkoUBeauty]

Bravo Bombers. So brave today.

 

[Tuck In]

Who the hell is Darren Kane, Sydney based sports lawyer??

Link to all articles: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/by/Darren-Kane

Summary:
9 articles published
100% pro * propaganda

LoL. EAD Darren you dribbling shill.

There must be a story behind this guy, a little like George trying to convince the unemployment office he is a latex salesman about to work for Vandelay Industries in Seinfeld.

Darren Kane to his sole friend...."I have given you number to the media. If they call, answer as though you are my assistant and make sure you use use the word sports lawyer"....