Analysis Finding the root of our problems

[Tigerbob]

Crap , Martin's issue is it's come to easy . He is a lazy prick and one of the roots of our issues. Picks and chooses .

Elements of that but I think Dimma has taken the game away from him. What came naturally to him has become confusing.

Dimma is brilliant at coaching the natural flair away from players.

His first year it was simple. See ball, get ball, cause damage. In his first year he was dominating because the game was simple and enjoyable.

 

[Boston tiger]

Elements of that but I think Dimma has taken the game away from him. What came naturally to him has become confusing.

Dimma is brilliant at coaching the natural flair away from players.

His first year it was simple. See ball, get ball, cause damage. In his first year he was dominating because the game was simple and enjoyable.

Spot on. When he stops coaching we go better. Instead of letting the great inspire he wants everyone on the same level.

Tich is about the last one left... Just let it all hang out..

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Elements of that but I think Dimma has taken the game away from him. What came naturally to him has become confusing.

Dimma is brilliant at coaching the natural flair away from players.

His first year it was simple. See ball, get ball, cause damage. In his first year he was dominating because the game was simple and enjoyable.

So was his man , individually he looked great but he his total effectiveness to the team was outweighed by the effectiveness of his direct opponent . I suggest you look at the whole picture , yes I do think our whole midfielders are to predictable and to similar in the way they play but Martin is just lazy .

 

[Tigerbob]

So was his man , individually he looked great but he his total effectiveness to the team was outweighed by the effectiveness of his direct opponent . I suggest you look at the whole picture , yes I do think our whole midfielders are to predictable and to similar in the way they play but Martin is just lazy .

So all midfielders need to watch their men?

Dane Swan never does. Didn't stop them winning a flag and he winning a Brownlow.

We should have team structures but you allow your most talented players to use their natural ability.

Why has Martin gone from inside machine at 17 to outside skirting of packs at 21? He was told no midfield for you. Play half back. We need to use your kicking skills. Play forward we need to use your one on one ability.

Dimma has damaged him more than it is laziness from Martin. No doubt in my mind.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

He was once wanting to be tough rather than looking tough

So all midfielders need to watch their men?

Dane Swan never does. Didn't stop them winning a flag and he winning a Brownlow.

We should have team structures but you allow your most talented players to use their natural ability.

Why has Martin gone from inside machine at 17 to outside skirting of packs at 21? He was told no midfield for you. Play half back. We need to use your kicking skills. Play forward we need to use your one on one ability.

Dimma has damaged him more than it is laziness from Martin. No doubt in my mind.

 

[Livonski]

Funnily enough we have gone backwards since jack left the leadership group imo he should still be in it. He genuinely feels and its always visable.

Leadership would be kicking goals when we need him to.

He can * around kicking around corners or whatever, just kick them. That's leadership. Yelling, crying, pointing wildly, talking in team meetings...couldn't give a s**t.
Leadership is on field, doing your job.
Will he kick straight if he was in the leadership group?

 

[Livonski]

Spot on. When he stops coaching we go better. Instead of letting the great inspire he wants everyone on the same level.

Tich is about the last one left... Just let it all hang out..

So he hasn't been coaching Edwards?
Dribble.

 

[rideclutch]

One of the footy shows highlighted Dusty in the Brisbane game running hard forward from a contest on the back flank and ended up in the goal square on the end of Jacks' handpass for a goal.

It was great running, but wouldn't mind seeing some of our players running BACK just as hard, even if the end result is only to take a mark or lay a tackle.

 

[_RT_]

Time for us to admit the truth, the majority of our side are soft front running flat track bullies, who are only prepared to work hard when things are going right, yet continue to fail to step up when things are tough.

Last night I watched the Power/Hawks and Freo/Swans games. In both games the Power & Dockers got away to a flying start only for the Hawks and Swans to knuckle down and fight their way back into games in a way that our side simply isn't capable of doing. When it comes to the crunch we simply don't have enough players willing to dig deep and fight. Don't be mistaken by games Carlton last year or round 1 this year where they were close and we managed to get the win. Think of games where we've been down 5-6 goals early and fought our way back into being in a winning position.

The last game I can think of that matches that was the Dogs game early last year where we were 6 goals down at half time and lost by 2 points, before that it was Cousins last game in 2010. In between times it's a case of once it gets too hard the players just turn up their toes and accept defeat. There is no willingness to fight to the end and make games tight and put pressure on the opposition. Yet the opposite happens to us. North Melbourne last year were down 6 goals at half time and won by 28, Carlton have time and again come back at us when we've had big leads winning a couple of them along the way.

As much as it pains to say it, the culprits in this aren't lesser lights, that always cop the criticism, but it is some of our big name players. When was the last time you've walked away from a game and thought that Cotchin Martin Deledio have had games like a Selwood, Hodge, Kennedy, Jones, Boak, Lewis, Mitchell, Pendlebury or Watson, where they have stood up and said follow me I'm not allowing us to lose this game without a fight. In all honesty I can't remember when that has happened, outside when Deledio was threatened by Rawlings in 09 with being dropped because he was just coasting along getting his 25 possessions, he then went out in the last couple of games and led by example.

We all marvel at these players for their skill and get caught up in their big possession games or match winning goal in the dying moments of the game, but as I said when was the last time you walked away saying that they have grabbed the game by the scruff of the neck and hauled us either back into a game we're losing or ensured that when an opponent has made a charge we held on and won.

When you're not getting that type of leadership from your star players it's very hard to then demand that the middle tier players step up and fight with everything they have to try and haul us back into a game or hang on when the opposition charges.

 

[Boston tiger]

So he hasn't been coaching Edwards?
Dribble.

Obviously not.

 

[_RT_]

Another issue I have is with the make up of our team. We draft kids that play in certain areas and then try to reinvent the wheel with them and then wonder why the kids don't come on as well as we hoped. Before the season started I saw this year as one where there would be a few changes to the line up and structure of the side and I still believe that is going to be the case it's just that the injury list at the moment isn't allowing us to play with the line up and structure that we want to.

FWIW here is how I'd break down the list so that the kids were being developed to best serve us going forward.

Small Defenders: Houli Morris Castagna Newman
Medium Defenders: McIntosh Batchelor Grimes Petterd Dea
KPD: Rance Astbury Chaplin Elton
Small Forwards: Edwards McDonough Lloyd Butler Short
Medium Forwards: Deledio Martin Lennon Knights Gordon
KPF: Riewoldt Griffiths McKenzie McBean
Inside Midfielders: Cotchin Miles Vlastuin C.Ellis Foley Arnot Lambert Thomas
Outside Midfielders: B.Ellis Conca Hunt Drummond Menadue
Rucks: Maric Vickery Hampson Soldo

From those groupings the side I'd like to see line up is:

B: Morris Astbury Chaplin
HB: Houli Rance McIntosh
C: B.Ellis Vlastuin Conca
HF: Deledio Griffiths Martin
F: Edwards Riewoldt Vickery
R: Maric Cotchin Miles
INT: Hunt C.Ellis Lennon Batchelor

If injury or poor form dictates a change to the line up, then you bring in a player from the same grouping if possible. Obviously if injury has no one available from that group you can turn to another option from a similar group. At least that way when there are changes being made to the side the players you are asking to come in and coming in to fill a role they are playing already, rather than coming in and being asked to play a role they are unfamiliar with.

The above side offers up defensive accountability as well as rebounding run and carry from the back line. Hardness, ball winning ability and skill on the inside, run carry and skill on the outside of the midfield. Up forward we put the oppositions back 6 under pressure by having multiple goal kicking options that stop the opposition simply sagging off and setting up their rebounding run and carry.

Hopefully by the end of the year we'll see the line up looking something like the above line up.

 

[SplintWhisky]

Time for us to admit the truth, the majority of our side are soft front running flat track bullies, who are only prepared to work hard when things are going right, yet continue to fail to step up when things are tough.

Last night I watched the Power/Hawks and Freo/Swans games. In both games the Power & Dockers got away to a flying start only for the Hawks and Swans to knuckle down and fight their way back into games in a way that our side simply isn't capable of doing. When it comes to the crunch we simply don't have enough players willing to dig deep and fight. Don't be mistaken by games Carlton last year or round 1 this year where they were close and we managed to get the win. Think of games where we've been down 5-6 goals early and fought our way back into being in a winning position.

The last game I can think of that matches that was the Dogs game early last year where we were 6 goals down at half time and lost by 2 points, before that it was Cousins last game in 2010. In between times it's a case of once it gets too hard the players just turn up their toes and accept defeat. There is no willingness to fight to the end and make games tight and put pressure on the opposition. Yet the opposite happens to us. North Melbourne last year were down 6 goals at half time and won by 28, Carlton have time and again come back at us when we've had big leads winning a couple of them along the way.

As much as it pains to say it, the culprits in this aren't lesser lights, that always cop the criticism, but it is some of our big name players. When was the last time you've walked away from a game and thought that Cotchin Martin Deledio have had games like a Selwood, Hodge, Kennedy, Jones, Boak, Lewis, Mitchell, Pendlebury or Watson, where they have stood up and said follow me I'm not allowing us to lose this game without a fight. In all honesty I can't remember when that has happened, outside when Deledio was threatened by Rawlings in 09 with being dropped because he was just coasting along getting his 25 possessions, he then went out in the last couple of games and led by example.

We all marvel at these players for their skill and get caught up in their big possession games or match winning goal in the dying moments of the game, but as I said when was the last time you walked away saying that they have grabbed the game by the scruff of the neck and hauled us either back into a game we're losing or ensured that when an opponent has made a charge we held on and won.

When you're not getting that type of leadership from your star players it's very hard to then demand that the middle tier players step up and fight with everything they have to try and haul us back into a game or hang on when the opposition charges.

You have hit the nail on the head with the point I am trying to make. I personally would say screw throwing the "warchest" at a dangerfield or one of those type of players I want someone with leadership and fight in the mold of Selwood. I can't count the amount of times he has stood up as a captain and willed his side back into the contest.

It was telling that in the Carlton game it was the first player and Taylor Hunt who were fighting hard to get the win. One was fighting to become a regular and the other came from a successful hard working culture in Geelong

 

[TheTigerArmy]

From those groupings the side I'd like to see line up is:

B: Morris Astbury Chaplin
HB: Houli Rance McIntosh
C: B.Ellis Vlastuin Conca
HF: Deledio Griffiths Martin
F: Edwards Riewoldt Vickery
R: Maric Cotchin Miles
INT: Hunt C.Ellis Lennon Batchelor

I like this team alot ... all players are played in there CORRECT positions there are no hack players there either...i like martin and lids forward as well as Vickery included we are better team with him there...only change i wud make is Morris out Grimes in..this team wud challenge any team..send this team to Hardwick and tell him to leave the hacks out and put players in there right positions ..and stop messing with the chemistry of the team..

 

[jesterx]

Dimma is done, we agree on that.

But again, there is no fear of death in these players should they not pressure and chase.

If you literally said to every player that a missed tackle costs them $100, how many tackles would they miss?

Like I mean LITERALLY you have a person watching the game, and for every missed tackle, they note down that $100 is to be taken from that players pay cheque.

And for every time a player corrals an opponent instead of tackling them and running at them, it's another $80. Per time.

And every time a player doesn't get lower than his opponent when going for a ball, another $50 per time.

You might think it sounds silly, but good god I promise we wouldn't lose many games if this system was ACTUALLY implemented somehow, and then enforced.

Quoting this underrated post. Not for brilliance but for being one of the silliest things I've ever read on this forum.

 

[TiggerMan22]

But he isn't doing his job, because he isn't capable of making a call such as dropping Cotchin to the reserves for missing that set shot.

That may be the stupidest thing I have read on BigFooty. Congrats.

 

[TiggerMan22]

Leadership would be kicking goals when we need him to.

He can **** around kicking around corners or whatever, just kick them. That's leadership. Yelling, crying, pointing wildly, talking in team meetings...couldn't give a s**t.
Leadership is on field, doing your job.
Will he kick straight if he was in the leadership group?

Just doing your job and not worrying your team mates is not leadership. Maybe have a think about the word leadership. Leadership > Leader. Leaders dont just worry about their own game. Sorry, but you are just plain wrong.

 

[theflea]

One of the footy shows highlighted Dusty in the Brisbane game running hard forward from a contest on the back flank and ended up in the goal square on the end of Jacks' handpass for a goal.

It was great running, but wouldn't mind seeing some of our players running BACK just as hard, even if the end result is only to take a mark or lay a tackle.

You know what I would like to see? The players running HARD to man up at stoppages not just coast in too late.

 

[TiggerMan22]

You know what I would like to see? The players running HARD to man up at stoppages not just coast in too late.

And ferociously tackling their opponents plz. Dont care if theres a free kick against because they slammed them into the ground. Even that stops the play at least.

 

[nineteen eighty]

To the OP, can you explain why you want Jack as captain. I've played the game for many many years (albeit well retired these days) and do not see one quality that Jack has as a leader. He

I've said my bit re Cotchin as captain in the Hardwick thread on the MB...the club has erred and clearly stalled his development. They've turned him into a good midfielder whereas he should clearly be a top 5 mid. I don't know who else has captaincy material but I dare say the cupboard is bare. They need to release the burden of captaincy on Cotch and let him play. He should have only been given the captaincy in his mid to late 20's.

As for Jack, the bloke isn't even in the leadership group which I think is selected by the players. He is not a leader as much as he may think he is.

 

[Tigerbob]

View attachment 127871 View attachment 127872 View attachment 127873
He was once wanting to be tough rather than looking tough

I'm confused.

 

[nineteen eighty]

Crap , Martin's issue is it's come to easy . He is a lazy prick and one of the roots of our issues. Picks and chooses .

No argument from me on this one. Has all the skills to be one of the leading players in the comp and yet rarely plays to this level. Once in a while against easy opposition he'll carve them up and have everyone salivating over him. Will then coast again.

 

[Tigerbob]

Everyone who has Morris in their line up is doing it wrong.

 

[docko911]

Our club is just surrounded with weak people. Look at Clarkson, he has fire in the belly, look at Ross, he has fire in the belly, look at Hinckley, he has fire in the belly, look at Longmire, he has fire in the belly... And look at Dimma, he has his dissection and level headed approach. The majority of our playing group, in particular our captain, are level headed kind of people or have been made to be. We have this whole focus on professionalism that we end up looking like a bunch of robots with no flair.

Dusty is a prime example, in his first few seasons he played with reckless abandon and he put fear into opposition, and then all of a sudden his game has become very structured and boring. The only time you see him do anything exciting is in a one on one up forward, even his don't argues look structured now, so boring.

The list of changes to players game, limiting their true abilities is immense. The inability to break the shackles and rip a game to shreds has happened as a result of no flair and no freedom in their game.

We play like our attitude. We need to be campaigners during a game like all the good teams. But we are just a bunch of weak dogs at the moment.

 

[_RT_]

Everyone who has Morris in their line up is doing it wrong.

I'd like to see Hunt given a shot in the role, has the nous being a tagger to play a close checking role in the back 6. Another one I have an inclination about is Castagna, I think he is another who could also perform in the role.

 

[Numpty Tiger]

There is little doubt our problems stem, at least in part, from injuries compounded by several years of compromised drafts. (I went to GWS v Suns last night; man there was some young talent on display). This alone would make life tougher than it should be for ANY team. I honestly dont know if its also about the coach. However, Whether we persevere with Dimma or not long term (where are all those available, awesome coach option again?) I just prey the Club makes that decision at the right time totally unaffected by the screaming hordes of frustrated members (may God bless us).