Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
15 points - 3 weeks off
20 points - Account banned.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Your argument appears to be telling people that withdrawing aid or government support from Israel should be contingent on them being tried and found guilty of genocide. I can certainly see why you would dislike me making that comparison, because unlike most cases before the courts Israel's misdeeds here are extremely well documented and such an argument would be exceedingly absurd to make.

Which is why I asked you why you were doing it, so let me ask you again: why are you making an 'innocent until proven guilty' argument when this could be the most demonstrable genocide in history?

I have no idea what you are on about to be honest, but i'd suggest you read the posts before jumping to whatever conclusion you are trying to get too.

I have no issues towing a hard line on Israel and their government, but i am against abandoning them entirely.

I dont dislike anything you are doing btw, mainly because i have no idea what are trying to actually achieve here. See above.

I'm not sure anyone is turning their backs or at least i am not seeing it en masse. Plenty of people have been protesting and the government is putting clear pressure on Israel to provide a measured response. This isn't as clear cut as a lot of people are making it out. We and others are not just going to abandon Israel.

Genocide is a scheduled war crime and like any other war crime or any crime for that matter it needs to be proven to have occurred by the appropriate international body. Hopefully that investigation takes place one day and if found to have occurred those responsible are dealt with as the laws allow them to be.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

no. merely a point of fact.

genocides are not specific to only the holocaust.

Atilla the Hun for example undertook many genocides, some 1500 years before the term genocide was coined.

So you’re saying that Netanyahu is worse than Atilla?

Because he knows exactly what genocide means.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

So you’re saying that Netanyahu is worse than Atilla?

Because he knows exactly what genocide means.

i am saying what the post says?

 

[Saint]

I have no idea what you are on about to be honest, but i'd suggest you read the posts before jumping to whatever conclusion you are trying to get too.

I have no issues towing a hard line on Israel and their government, but i am against abandoning them entirely.

I dont dislike anything you are doing btw, mainly because i have no idea what are trying to actually achieve here. See above.

Why against abandoning them entirely?

They don't need our help.

It's illegal to assist a genocide.

And if plausible deniability is enough to overlook a democratic nation undertaking a genocide and us continuing to support it, then we're back to Godwin's Law of 1938, where the lessons of the holocaust are yet to be learned.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

i am saying what the post says?

You made a comparison between the current genocide, and one that Atilla the Hun did.

The leader of the current genocide is Netanyahu.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

You made a comparison between the current genocide, and one that Atilla the Hun did.

The leader of the current genocide is Netanyahu.

no

i said genocides are not limited to the holocaust.

Whatever other comparison being made is being made by you, trying to get some type of gotcha moment.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

no

i said genocides are not limited to the holocaust.

Whatever other comparison being made is being made by you, trying to get some type of gotcha moment.

Perhaps you shouldn’t have used Atilla the Hun as an example, if you didn’t want him compared to Netanyahu.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Why against abandoning them entirely?

They don't need our help.

It's illegal to assist a genocide.

And if plausible deniability is enough to overlook a democratic nation undertaking a genocide and us continuing to support it, then we're back to Godwin's Law of 1938, where the lessons of the holocaust are yet to be learned.

I dont personally think it is that clear cut

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Perhaps you shouldn’t have used Atilla the Hun as an example, if you didn’t want him compared to Netanyahu.

you can compare whoever to whomever you want.

Just dont suggest i am when i clearly didn't.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

you can compare whoever to whomever you want.

Just dont suggest i am when i clearly didn't.

If Australia was supplying weapons to Atilla the Hun, would you be angry or upset?

Would you speak up, or just shrug your shoulders?

 

[HirdsTheWord]

If Australia was supplying weapons to Atilla the Hun, would you be angry or upset?

Certainly.

Do you think i am not angry or upset with how Israel have conducted themselves or something?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Certainly.

Do you think i am not angry or upset with how Israel have conducted themselves or something?

You seem to want to continue supporting Israel, while a plausible genocide is occurring.

Complicity.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

You seem to want to continue supporting Israel, while a plausible genocide is occurring.

Support isn't a yes or no category.

I support Israels intent to wipe Hamas of the face of the earth. But i certainly dont support how they are doing it nor the tactics they are implementing to do it. I have said that from October last year.

I also have said i support Israel being investigated for the war crimes you are alleging.

 

[CM86]

I support Israels intent to wipe Hamas of the face of the earth.

The concept/ideology of Hamas?
Or the human members?

 

[HirdsTheWord]

The concept/ideology of Hamas?
Or the human members?

their leadership namely.

cut of the head and the others can't organise themselves.

Mind you that's just gaza. Israel still needs to right the wrongs that it commits or allows citizens to commit in the Westbank.

 

[CM86]

their leadership namely.

cut of the head and the others can't organise themselves.

Mind you that's just gaza. Israel still needs to right the wrongs that commits or allows citizens to commit in the Westbank.

Do you think the current actions of Israel are working towards removing the concept/ideology behind Hamas.
Or reinforcing/expanding it?

 

[Gethelred]

I have no idea what you are on about to be honest, but i'd suggest you read the posts before jumping to whatever conclusion you are trying to get too.

It's a rather significant assumption to assume I haven't read a post on this forum, HTW. Just because I don't involve myself in conversation - especially in this thread - does not mean I'm not reading along.

I have no issues towing a hard line on Israel and their government, but i am against abandoning them entirely.

Cool. Not really relevant to judging their war crimes and ongoing genocide against Palestine, but good for you.

I dont dislike anything you are doing btw, mainly because i have no idea what are trying to actually achieve here. See above.

I read your post when you posted it, HTW. It doesn't really detract from what I mean.

Your desire to not completely abandon Israel has you reaching for some pretty absurd arguments. That you do not like how those arguments look when exposed is not really my problem.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Do you think the current actions of Israel are working towards removing the concept/ideology behind Hamas.
Or reinforcing/expanding it?

Both.

On Oct 8th 2023 Israel should have sent Mossad over to Qatar and knocked off Hamas leadership. A single bomb should not have been dropped on Gaza. I said it then and I'll say it now.

Prior to Oct 7th Israel was making progress on its relations with Gaza, it was giving out more and more work permits allowing more and more Gazans to find work in Israel. There is still plenty of things Israel need to advance on including the West bank.

There was a way forward that meant the removal of Hamas leadership. Israel chose the scorched earth way.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

It's a rather significant assumption to assume I haven't read a post on this forum, HTW. Just because I don't involve myself in conversation - especially in this thread - does not mean I'm not reading along.

Cool. Not really relevant to judging their war crimes and ongoing genocide against Palestine, but good for you.

I read your post when you posted it, HTW. It doesn't really detract from what I mean.

Your desire to not completely abandon Israel has you reaching for some pretty absurd arguments. That you do not like how those arguments look when exposed is not really my problem.

so, if you read the post why are you suggesting something i didn't write? When it is pretty clear what i wrote. seems bizarre.

You aren't exposing anything really. I can support what I want to support, and I'll do it how i want to within respectful forum setting. You do the same?

To me this is not black and white, if you believe it is. Good for you? Run with it?

 

[CM86]

Both.

On Oct 8th 2023 Israel should have sent Mossad over to Qatar and knocked off Hamas leadership. A single bomb should not have been dropped on Gaza. I said it then and I'll say it now.

Prior to Oct 7th Israel was making progress on its relations with Gaza, it was giving out more and more work permits allowing more and more Gazans to find work in Israel. There is still plenty of things Israel need to advance on including the West bank.

There was a way forward that meant the removal of Hamas leadership. Israel chose the scorched earth way.

So what makes you think that Israel's intent was and has been to wipe out Hamas, if their actions could lead to the opposite?

Why do you feel you might have such an obvious answer and solution, that they missed?
Is it possible that their intent isn't to remove the causes that lead to murderous terrorist movements like Hamas?

 

[HirdsTheWord]

So what makes you think that Israel's intent was and has been to wipe out Hamas, if their actions could lead to the opposite?

Why do you think you've got an obvious answer and solution, that they missed?
Is it possible that their intent isn't to remove the causes that lead to murderous terrorist movements like Hamas?

I dont think Israel thought about it. I think their response was largely revenged based. They wanted immediate mass destruction when a better solution was present.

Anythings possible. I just dont believe it's their intent.

 

[faible]

Israel chose the scorched earth way.

They wanted immediate mass destruction

Ever so close to genocide isn't it. Flirting with genocide? Genocide-curious?

 

[Gethelred]

so, if you read the post why are you suggesting something i didn't write? When it is pretty clear what i wrote. seems bizarre.

Okay.

If you don't think that people should wait for a guilty verdict against Israel or Netanyahu first, why did you say this:

everyone isn't ignoring it nor have i suggested they should.

I am simply advising you that in the event Israel is found Guilty of Genocide doesn't automatically make other countries complicit - which is what you asserted. You dont need a law degree to understand basic law.

... whilst advocating not to withdrawn support/funding or the like?

Seems to me you're reaching or something - anything - to justify your position.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Okay.

If you don't think that people should wait for a guilty verdict against Israel or Netanyahu first, why did you say this:

... whilst advocating not to withdrawn support/funding or the like?

Seems to me you're reaching or something - anything - to justify your position.

I have never told anyone to do anything. Your opinion is yours. Mine is mine. Each is entitled to their own.

All I have said is that i dont support the full abandonment of Israel. That doesn't mean we can't sanction them, remove funding of items etc etc. Abonnement means ALL. not some. ALL - again you say you read posts. I'm not sure you are being honest about that.

You just want it to be black and white. I dont believe it is.

 

[Saint]

You should see some of the stuff the Israeli press is feeding their population.

Sentences like this, which are Iraqi Information Minister-level stuff.

"There is not only no evidence connecting Israel to such an act, but the IDF, with all of the criticism, has shown unprecedented openness to international media to see and learn what it is doing in Gaza."

Israel’s mass grave controversy - the real problem - analysis

There is not only no evidence connecting Israel to doing so, but the IDF, with all of the criticism, has shown unprecedented openness to international media to see and learn what it is doing in Gaza.

www.jpost.com