Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17 shot down 295 dead.

[Zidane98]

http://www.nst.com.my/node/20925?d=1

Yesterday, theNew Straits Timesquoted experts who had said that photographs of the blast fragmentation patterns on the fuselage of the airliner showed two distinct shapes — the shredding pattern associated with a warhead packed with “flechettes”, and the more uniform, round-type penetration holes consistent with that of cannon rounds.

...

Parry also cited a July 29 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation interview with Michael Bociurkiw, one of the first Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) investigators to arrive at the scene of the disaster, near Donetsk.

...

“It had to have been a hail of bullets from both sides that brought the plane down. This is Haisenko’s main discovery. You can’t have projectiles going in both directions — into the left-hand-side fuselage panel from both its left and right sides — unless they are coming at the panel from different directions.
“Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through that panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile,” Parry had said.



If the range is 48km then why couldn't it have been fired from non rebel held territory? How many km inside rebel territory was in when it was hit?

A simple Internet search reveals that Hrabove (where the plane crashed) is 80km East of Donetsk which is controlled by the rebels. So there is absolutely no doubt the missile was fired from rebel held territory.

The buk SA-11 warheads are filled with up to 30,000 pieces of metal shrapnel. When the missile explodes they are designed to shred the target. A cursory glance at any of the crash scene photos will show you holes in the fuselage of many different shapes, sizes and angles. That doesn't happen from gunfire and there isn't even so called fighters on russian radar evidence, just falling wreckage if mh 17 itself.

 

[Zidane98]

Would there even be any time for the pilot to figure things out?

No. Missile flight time from launch to detonation is about 8 seconds and there was some overcast on the day so it is unlikely the crew were aware of anything. A transcript of the CVR will be made available once the investigation is complete.

 

[Freo2012]

What can a blackbox tell us if a plane gets shot down?

Sudden failure of every system at once?

The blackbox would be pretty useless I would think.

As others have said the "Black Box" (orange/red actually) comprises many different recorded flight data, including cockpit voice recorder. If the plane was being fired on by military planes cannon I am sure there would be some comment on it. But that seems such a far-fetched scenario, would presume if a military plane sought to bring MH down it wouldn't use cannon, but a A2A missile. Also as others have said most missiles do not actually hit the target, they explode within a certain range and cause massive terminal damage through the shrapnel or flachettes (depending what kind), but in these cases their should still be enough "black box" data showing the sequential loss of certain flight systems and then breakup (total data loss) over even a very short period (a second) and any cockpit voice data. Black box data does provide particular evidence that can confirm missile strike and even assist with what possible types when used with other wreckage evidence. I do not think there has ever been a downed commercial plane (even by direct missile strike) that has not yielded some important information from the black boxes at the time of the catastrophe.

 

[Zidane98]

The black box will catch the sound of the missile exploding if close enough to the cockpit too I would imagine. That can be compared with the known sound of a buk missile exploding to confirm it.

 

[awaremind]

If anyone bothered to check ICAO regulations into accident investigation s state evidence is not to be released until the final investigation is complete. No conspiracies, the same applies to any airliner crash including the one that also crashed in Africa which also has not had its communications released.

This is one of the stupidest things I've heard for a while but then again since I got banned I haven't had to put up with you or some of the other slow learners.... anyway. If they were so concerned with appropriate release of info, why did they promptly release every shred of falsifiable info that they did have and scream it over the Western propaganda outlets(thats what I'm now calling the western press), for about two weeks non-stop-blaming the "thuggish" rebels and evil mr Putin (who has been the only European or North American leader who has even called for dialogue to be the answer to the crisis). In what Legal system is one person allowed to be trialled by media before any real investigation at all has been done? Just think of the headlines that ran PUTIN'S MISSILE.
Easy to see that regime change in Russia is what these fools covert- Nuclear state instability? Really? How ******* stupid are our leaders? Barring Assassination of both Putin and Lavrov Russia will prevail because both these two are master diplomats. Putin is a master Martial artist, Chess player, Intelligence agent also, and said to be one of the only incorruptible bureaucrats in Yeltzin's disaster years. The Russians are running rings around the west at the moment, and its the populace of the west that will pay, for the sheer stupidity of our leaders and thier inability to choose peace over violence.
Why can't we choose harmony with the east ? And would we join a trade war with china if the USA pushed for that? THAT would be economic suicide, not just the chopping off the nose to spite the face of sanctions on Russia.

Now it seem that even the west is slowly doing a U-turn on this issue, (see medusalas posted article) if it turns out its the openly Nazi Kiev militia, I would expect our headlines to run - SORRY MR PUTIN. Will they - I doubt it - more likely, we'll see another, even more shocking false flag attempt.

 

[awaremind]

Also if you search on youtube - "The video report deleted by the BBC - English subs" you will find a report containing interviews by the BBC of eye witnesses who said they saw a fighter jet nearby to mh17. Not truly conclusive at all but look how excited the women are, they appear to be genuine.

 

[awaremind]

Also each Buk tracking system has a unique finger print apparently, that the USA military is able to trace. If they do not cite this evidence you have to have serious doubts, not to mention the "disappearance" of the ATC data. If you follow the comments section on the guardian you will realize that the European public's scepticism of the USA's motives concerning UKR is rising rapidly; especially given that sanctioning Russia will cripple thier own economy far more than Russia's and leave them, but not the USA at the mercy of the Russians come wintertime.

 

[medusala]

. If you follow the comments section on the guardian you will realize that the European public's scepticism of the USA's motives concerning UKR is rising rapidly; especially given that sanctioning Russia will cripple thier own economy far more than Russia's and leave them, but not the USA at the mercy of the Russians come wintertime.

Yep, see below. Russia food ban is starting to bite already.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...gest-dairy-lays-800-spain-seeks-eu-aid-poland-

 

[awaremind]

Yep, see below. Russia food ban is starting to bite already.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...gest-dairy-lays-800-spain-seeks-eu-aid-poland-

Did you read the comments at the bottom , some funny s**t!
But yeah it was a clever, clever sanction, Putin is first and foremost a martial artist- The stomach or Tan Tien is the most important point.
Unless we focus on finding new opportunities arising out of this situation we will find ourselves selling excess fod products to Asia at reduced prices who may then just on sell it to Russia anyway, causing our agriculture to be hamstrung as profit margins are small. Followed by shortages due to farmers businesses failing.

 

[Zidane98]

Also if you search on youtube - "The video report deleted by the BBC - English subs" you will find a report containing interviews by the BBC of eye witnesses who said they saw a fighter jet nearby to mh17. Not truly conclusive at all but look how excited the women are, they appear to be genuine.

PMSL. A fighter jet would be impossible to see at a range of 10km from the ground. You do realise there were 2 other flights (one Air India & one Singapore Air) within 25km at the time? Any aircraft seen was those aircraft. Even Russia's own radar records don't show anything other than the wreckage of MH 17 falling after it broke apart. There isn't one single shred of credible evidence produced to suggest that there were any military aircraft in the nearby vicinity of MH17, SQ 351 and AI 113.

As for release of information there is no release of information until a preliminary report is published. Same for every single air crash investigation and no different to MH 17. There's no conspiracy theories. In this investigation it is Holland who are the leading the investigation.

As for Russia & Putin you'll find that he'll change his tune when mooted trade sanctions imposed which prevents supply of spare parts for commercial aircraft hits. Russia now relies almost exclusively on western aircraft and relies heavily on air transport due its size. This is a very real possibility of happening if Putin doesn't back down and stop undermining Ukraine's sovereignty and if it does he'll have no choice but to back off.

 

[awaremind]

PMSL. A fighter jet would be impossible to see at a range of 10km from the ground. You do realise there were 2 other flights (one Air India & one Singapore Air) within 25km at the time? Any aircraft seen was those aircraft. Even Russia's own radar records don't show anything other than the wreckage of MH 17 falling after it broke apart. There isn't one single shred of credible evidence produced to suggest that there were any military aircraft in the nearby vicinity of MH17, SQ 351 and AI 113.

As for release of information there is no release of information until a preliminary report is published. Same for every single air crash investigation and no different to MH 17. There's no conspiracy theories. In this investigation it is Holland who are the leading the investigation.

As for Russia & Putin you'll find that he'll change his tune when mooted trade sanctions imposed which prevents supply of spare parts for commercial aircraft hits. Russia now relies almost exclusively on western aircraft and relies heavily on air transport due its size. This is a very real possibility of happening if Putin doesn't back down and stop undermining Ukraine's sovereignty and if it does he'll have no choice but to back off.

To be honest I think If that happened he'd only retaliate in kind - possibly banning flights over Russia's air space... Either way sanctioning a large and important nation like Russia hurts both nations, it's very much a case of cutting off the nose to spite the face, I think there's more likely to be mass demonstrations at home if he doesn't support the eastern Ukrainians than as a result of economic hardship.

 

[Zidane98]

Won't be difficult to avoid Russian airspace. Airlines managed it during the cold war. Russia without support from Boeing and/or airbus would be brought to its knees unlike the cold war when the USSR built everything itself.

Nobody has ever suggested that Russia does not have legitimate interests in the Ukraine but the way he has gone about it us abhorrent.

 

[awaremind]

Won't be difficult to avoid Russian airspace. Airlines managed it during the cold war. Russia without support from Boeing and/or airbus would be brought to its knees unlike the cold war when the USSR built everything itself.

Nobody has ever suggested that Russia does not have legitimate interests in the Ukraine but the way he has gone about it us abhorrent.

And using grads on hospitals, schools, apartment blocks etc is not? Or how about shelling chemical plants, which has the potential to release exceedingly dangerous toxic clouds. Or what about destroying the water and power supplies. Not to mention promising "revenge" to the western populace which already has its fair share of nazi thugs. Why have around 800000 refugees ran to Russia not Kiev ?

 

[Zidane98]

And using grads on hospitals, schools, apartment blocks etc is not? Or how about shelling chemical plants, which has the potential to release exceedingly dangerous toxic clouds. Or what about destroying the water and power supplies. Not to mention promising "revenge" to the western populace which already has its fair share of nazi thugs. Why have around 800000 refugees ran to Russia not Kiev ?

You obviously get most of your information from Russian propaganda publications.

 

[awaremind]

You obviously get most of your information from Russian propaganda publications.

Lol you obviously get most of your information from western propaganda publications.

 

[Jakko]

Has this whole thing really turned into some kind of bizarro conspiracy event?

Russian backed forces most certainly fired the missile, but not to purposely take down hundreds of innocent tourists imo. A trigger happy SAM commander who knew that Antonovs were about is what happened. Accident can still happen in warzones.

Propoganda wise, it doesn't suit Russia for it to be orchestrated by them. As for the western countries, not all neighbouring countries would agree with such a false flag event to make it possible. If Ukraine did it on their own, NATO countries would speak up.

 

[awaremind]

Has this whole thing really turned into some kind of bizarro conspiracy event?

Russian backed forces most certainly fired the missile, but not to purposely take down hundreds of innocent tourists imo. A trigger happy SAM commander who knew that Antonovs were about is what happened. Accident can still happen in warzones.

Propoganda wise, it doesn't suit Russia for it to be orchestrated by them. As for the western countries, not all neighbouring countries would agree with such a false flag event to make it possible. If Ukraine did it on their own, NATO countries would speak up.

Well they might have to, because if you really research it, it actually appears like it was the insane Ukrainian gov or their proudly nazi militias. Why bother commenting if you have not thoroughly researched this from a wide variety of sources.

 

[the_interloper]

Has this whole thing really turned into some kind of bizarro conspiracy event?

Russian backed forces most certainly fired the missile, but not to purposely take down hundreds of innocent tourists imo. A trigger happy SAM commander who knew that Antonovs were about is what happened. Accident can still happen in warzones.

Propoganda wise, it doesn't suit Russia for it to be orchestrated by them. As for the western countries, not all neighbouring countries would agree with such a false flag event to make it possible. If Ukraine did it on their own, NATO countries would speak up.

I find it hard to imagine that a group that has access to those sort of weapons wouldn't be able to tell what they are firing at. All you need is the Flightradar24 free app to find out.

 

[The_Reaper]

I find it hard to imagine that a group that has access to those sort of weapons wouldn't be able to tell what they are firing at. All you need is the Flightradar24 free app to find out.

It's the former USSR.

These things aren't built to be used by geniuses.

 

[awaremind]

It's the former USSR.

These things aren't built to be used by geniuses.

Maybe our politicians would even be able to use one then.

 

[The_Reaper]

Maybe our politicians would even be able to use one then.

They still require sapience mate

 

[awaremind]

And sapience is certainly not their strong point.

 

[TooFar]

So what has the Black Box revealed? News on this seems to have gone quiet.

 

[little graham]

So what has the Black Box revealed? News on this seems to have gone quiet.

If you google "American journo in Iraq beheaded and fired into cannon back in time, blew mh17 out of the sky so its all Assads fault and we must remove him" Tony Abbott will hire you as his forign policy PR advisor.

 

[little graham]

I read an article today that 4 countries have signed an agreement not to release the findings into the crash of mh17 , unless they all agree. Is this true?