Malaysian Airlines flight MH-17 shot down 295 dead.

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Long Live HFC said:
i'd suggest there's qualitative differences though between the putsch and the rebellion (while obviously accepting that one led to the other). the putsch succeeded through sheer weight of numbers rather than violence (as i alluded above, when you have the numbers you don't need the guns). subsequent to that there were free elections, which any ukrainian could participate in. IF you're going to overthrow your government then the maidan revolution could be considered a blueprint of how to go about it.

i don't feel that any of the actions of the rebels really displays anything approaching legitimacy. they don't have the numbers, but they have the guns. they shot down a passenger plane. their masters concocted fanciful nonsense in order to avoid accepting responsibility. they do not appear to have any civil organisation whatsosever. etc etc.

i don't feel it's a question of 'deferral to authority' as we're talking about states (or the creation of them) and this is implicitly a concept of authority.
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This is all just incorrect, Maidan was very violent, there are video's of the Berkut being burnt by Molotov cocktails, in some cases fatally. There were rooftop snipers, shooting people on both sides, something which has not been satisfactorily investigated, there was a bloke Called Musychko (sp?) going around filming himself and his band of Right Sektor thugs beating up bureaucrats, there was the heavenly hundred Martyrs who became the sacricial lambs of the new regime. Video's of what happened when the maidan crew tried it in the East show the numbers were with the rebels. I can provide the videos if you like but this is the wrong thread I've been told. So I'll leave it at that.
 
awaremind said:
This is all just incorrect, Maidan was very violent, there are video's of the Berkut being burnt by Molotov cocktails, in some cases fatally.
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you've ignored multiple posts i've made only today, where i noted that there was violence. why?

clearly it is a relative statement/comparison. the number of those killed on the plane alone outnumber those killed in the putsch (who were mainly protestors). compare it to syria or libya and other recent coups/attempts and i stand by what i said.
 
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Geelong_Sicko said:
If it's a military craft it's potentially dangerous and therefore a legitimate target in a war zone unless displaying the Red Cross/Red Crescent. Troop ships in themselves aren't dangerous... but what they can carry IS.
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That reasoning doesn't fly when the aircraft in question was traveling at 480kts and at an altitude of 33,000 feet. Such an aircraft is ZERO threat of dropping troops and/or supplies at that altitude/speed. Also, it was almost in Russian airspace. In a real war and where you are defending airspace that is legally yours (and it clearly wasn't the airspace of the rebels) an acceptable response to such a scenario would be radioing a warning and ordering the aircraft to turn back after making some sort of attempt at identifying it. In short, the rebels/russian soldiers have made zero attempt to shoot down the aircraft, were not engaged in a live firefight so had no immediate need to shoot the plane down and had no legal right to even attempt shooting down aircraft in Ukranian airspace. There actions are completely indefensible.
 
Long Live HFC said:
you've ignored multiple posts i've made only today, where i noted that there was violence. why?

clearly it is a relative statement/comparison. the number of those killed on the plane alone outnumber those killed in the putsch (who were mainly protestors). compare it to syria or libya and other recent coups/attempts and i stand by what i said.
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Sorry I could find no such posts in this thread and it still kind of ignores the fact that the real turning point of the protests was the violence, the nostalgia of the nationalists confirms this, unfortunately/fortunately most of their propaganda celebrating their key role in the putsch has been removed from facebook as it was accompanied by anti-semitic and anti-homosexual propaganda, so its difficult to quote. They know they were vital to the regime change, and they believe they can cause another regime change if they will it, and thats why Dmtri Yarosh the leader of the right sektor has been promoted to the general staff and generally these ultra-nationalist volunteers have been absorbed into the national guard and Armed forces. Now they are invested in the success of the regime, although it means the regime has become them also.
They will be problematic though, as a semi-facist regime is not going to be easily integrated into the EU and the Russian people will never turn against a leader who can convincingly claim to be fighting fascists from the west.
 
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awaremind said:
it still kind of ignores the fact that the real turning point of the protests was the violence, the nostalgia of the nationalists confirms this, unfortunately/fortunately most of their propaganda celebrating their key role in the putsch has been removed from facebook as it was accompanied by anti-semitic and anti-homosexual propaganda, so its difficult to quote. They know they were vital to the regime change, and they believe they can cause another regime change if they will it, and thats why Dmtri Yarosh the leader of the right sektor has been promoted to the general staff and generally these ultra-nationalist volunteers have been absorbed into the national guard and Armed forces. Now they are invested in the success of the regime, although it means the regime has become them also.
They will be problematic though, as a semi-facist regime is not going to be easily integrated into the EU and the Russian people will never turn against a leader who can convincingly claim to be fighting fascists from the west.
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Can you reply with anything that isn't Russian propaganda?
 
WorldCup2022OZ said:
Can you reply with anything that isn't Russian propaganda?
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This is my commentry based on my following the crisis from multiple perspectives, in this case my opinion is informed by following the social media of "Traditional Nationalists of Ukraine" and the "Azov Reconquista". The first site recently was removed from facebook and has been reborn in the last week or so here -https://www.facebook.com/ukrcrusade
 
awaremind said:
This is my commentry based on my following the crisis from multiple perspectives, in this case my opinion is informed by following the social media of "Traditional Nationalists of Ukraine" and the "Azov Reconquista". The first site recently was removed from facebook and has been reborn in the last week or so here -https://www.facebook.com/ukrcrusade
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And this has what to do with MH-17?
 
Well here is a particularly disturbing post off that facebook site I posted - possibly the next major shock of the war- who knows if it is true, or it is setting up another incident to discredit the separatists.
However it is somewhat suspicious that the right sektor would have such intelligence for if it were to be true I'm sure it would not be done openly. Watch this space.

"The DNR terrorists preparing a large-scale provocation at Donbass with using chemical weapons!

The DNR terrorists are preparing for a terrorist attack with using chemical weapons according to the "Right Sector" intelligence information.

Recently the terrorists have received a secret dangerous cargo which is located at one of the DNR military bases now. The cargo carriers were dressed in chemical-protective uniforms, the terrorists were extremely careful with box and use enhanced security measures.

According to intelligence information the cargo is a chemical munitions which were delivered from Russia. The DNR terrorists are planning to use the chemical weapon for shelling of civil districts of Donetsk to make a new provocation and accuse the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the use of prohibited weapons.

The use of chemical weapons will lead to tragic and unpredictable consequences, for the civilian population of Donbass primarily!"
 
WorldCup2022OZ said:
Can you keep posts in here MH-17 related by any chance?
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It was not me who diverted the thread, I was replying to other posters. Why are you so concerned any way? Do you go around to every thread moaning about diversions? at least this discussion is only slightly off original topic.
 

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awaremind said:
Lol I'll take your whinging as a lack of ability to effectively counter any of my points.
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No Vlad. Just want to keep the MH17 discussion about... MH17. It really isn't difficult. Take your political ravings to the civil war thread where I will discuss them with you.
 
WorldCup2022OZ said:
No Vlad. Just want to keep the MH17 discussion about... MH17. It really isn't difficult. Take your political ravings to the civil war thread where I will discuss them with you.
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Sorry Mr Cheney, I really would like to but there is really very little point debating with you, when there is no continuity. However I will take up your challenge if I must.
 
Russians do not support a UN tribunal to charge suspects involved in the war crime committed against MH17 organised by Netherlands & Malaysia (the two countries that lost most our of the tragedy).

If anyone had a single iota of doubt about the guilt of the Russians this absolutely confirms these scumbags are responsible

Russia have no interest in helping with the arrest of those responsible for this reprehensible act. What absolute scum, protecting those who are guilty because they do not want to be found to have taken military action inside Ukranian borders.
 
I bet they have precedents to refer to where the USA or Israel have protected their military or agents. Doesn't make it any better but it does show how what goes around comes around.
 
awaremind said:
I bet they have precedents to refer to where the USA or Israel have protected their military or agents. Doesn't make it any better but it does show how what goes around comes around.
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In this case it is Malaysia & Netherlands that want a UN tribunal. What does the US / Israel have to do with the current situation?

Not going to get a fairer hearing than a UN tribunal. Russia really need to do everything possible in ensuring the perpetrators are prosecuted. They are going to have very, very few friends left if they don't.
 
awaremind said:
Battle lines drawn many years ago I would of thought?
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Not quite sure what you are alluding to. Malaysia & the Netherlands want a UN tribunal to prosecute those who are responsible for MH17's demise. I'm not aware of any previous "battle lines" between Russia and these 2 countries. Netherlands lost nearly 200 citizens & Malaysia's PM lost his mother in law in the tragedy. Naturally they want justice and Russia needs to help out in every way possible to make this happen even if it is counterproductive to their political goals in Ukraine.
 
WorldCup2022OZ said:
Not quite sure what you are alluding to. Malaysia & the Netherlands want a UN tribunal to prosecute those who are responsible for MH17's demise. I'm not aware of any previous "battle lines" between Russia and these 2 countries. Netherlands lost nearly 200 citizens & Malaysia's PM lost his mother in law in the tragedy. Naturally they want justice and Russia needs to help out in every way possible to make this happen even if it is counterproductive to their political goals in Ukraine.
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To be honest that egotistical strelkov should be the one to pay if it's proven that it was the rebels. Taking him down may have repercussions among the Russian far right, we shall see I guess.
 
WorldCup2022OZ said:
Russians do not support a UN tribunal to charge suspects involved in the war crime committed against MH17 organised by Netherlands & Malaysia (the two countries that lost most our of the tragedy).

If anyone had a single iota of doubt about the guilt of the Russians this absolutely confirms these scumbags are responsible

Russia have no interest in helping with the arrest of those responsible for this reprehensible act. What absolute scum, protecting those who are guilty because they do not want to be found to have taken military action inside Ukranian borders.
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If Russia took military action inside Ukraine's borders, you would have no doubt. Russia would of kicked Ukraine's arse 3 ways until Sunday by now if that was the case!
 
Putin is wise enough to look more than one step ahead thats why he didn't go down that path. History is made by those who only look one step ahead, thats why history is full of endless tragedies. Paraphrasing Robert Anton Wilson.
 
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