Mike Sheehan's Top 50 for the last 25 years

[eaglespremiers]

I have no problem with the claim Sheehan has massively overrated Dean Cox. 35-50 is probably where he deserves to be.

 

[BrisDog]

Pavlich, Riewoldt and in particular, Tredrea not high enough.
Brad Johnson should be lower.

Where the hell is Chris Grant?

I think Mike's lost the plot. I remember Sheahan and co constantly comparing Carey vs Grant in the late 90's, now Grant can't even make the top 50. Most Doggies would have Grant above Brad Johnson.

 

[Angus Young]

Also carey is overrated

yeah nah...

number 1 for sure

 

[3kicks3goals]

ITT: BigFooty's Greatest Hits

Hird v Buckley v Voss (feat. 2002 Norm Smith, FIGJAM etc)
Snr v Jnr
Carey - GOAT?
Riewoldt v Tredrea
Everybody loves Richo

 

[Damon_3388]

Cox is without a doubt the best Ruckman in the past 20yrs. No player b4 can lay claim to being a gun ruckman and midfielder at the same time....and how many save the game marks did he take in his career. ICON.
Rhenn....Stynes....yeah....good ruckman....but Cox was 2 in 1. No one has ever done that b4. And now....its what will be expected. At wce...i think Lycett will be similar to Cox...in time. NN star athlete...but not a consistent KP player yet. Needs to be more consistent....fullfil his base role...then deliver his x factor.

You obviously never watched Stynes if you believe Cox was different/better.

Stynes averaged 25.58 disposals per game playing in the ruck in 1991 (the year he won the Brownlow), plus had four other seasons where he average 20+ disposals in the ruck. He played in an era of much lower disposal numbers overall, yet averaged more disposals and marks per game during his career than Cox. He was a ruck/mid hybrid (not the first, but one of the best) way before anyone knew who Cox was.

 

[Jakksynn]

Jonathon Brown ahead of Treadrea, Roo, and Pavlich is a bit rich.

 

[Claude Balls]

That's not saying that I agree that Glass is better than Scarlett.
I am simply saying that not having Scarlett in the top 25 players of the last 25 years is not a ridiculous stretch, even if it seems incredulous to the Geelong supporter.

'Fair enough' was me admitting there was no need to get personal.

As for Scarlett in the list, I agree it's not 'ridiculous' to suggest he isn't top 25. I wouldn't flame someone for putting him 30, for example, even though I would strongly disagree. The reason I put the gloves on with the other bloke was because the list is clearly designed to be controversial (Hodge at 15, B. Johnson at 20-odd, Pav at 50 or whatever it was), yet he took great exception to one aspect that is, quite objectively, at least in comparison to the list as a whole, not at all unreasonable.

More generally it seems quite a few posters in this thread are getting their knickers in a knot by way of direct player comparisons. Collingwood supporters decrying Hodge at 15 because it's before Buckley. Ditto Carlton supporters with Scarlett because he's ahead of SOS.

 

[Claude Balls]

Mike's list is riddled with selections I don't agree with, but the biggest one for me is Scarlett ahead of SOS. Perhaps Mike is stuck in who is the better fullback mode and wanted to make a statement, in which if he thinks it's Scarlett, good luck to him; but as a footballer, SOS was a serious talent, capable of smacking Carey at CHB, being BOG as a ruck rover, kicking 10 goals up forward and taking some incredible speccies as a younger player. Massive slip up here IMO.

This is what I'm talking about. Mike's entire list is pretty clearly a thinly veiled troll, so how do you figure Scarlett being one solitary place ahead of Silvagni is the single biggest anomoly? Don't get me wrong, I'm a Geelong supporter and I actually have SOS ahead (marginally), though their respective positions are not nearly as outrageous as:

Hodge at 15
Brad Johnson at 22
Matera at 10
Riewoldt and Pav at 48 and 50 compared to J. Brown at 34
....just for starters

 

[Claude Balls]

Jonathon Brown ahead of Treadrea, Roo, and Pavlich is a bit rich.

J. Brown making an appearance at all is a bit dubious for me considering who hasn't made the list. Unless you're using the "at his peak/for one match/looks like Carey" rating system, which I suppose is the customary system for J. Brown. Or the "team-based award to assess individual output" system, which involves comparing players based on how many premiership medals they have.

 

[The Blue Baggers]

I think Mike's lost the plot. I remember Sheahan and co constantly comparing Carey vs Grant in the late 90's, now Grant can't even make the top 50. Most Doggies would have Grant above Brad Johnson.

agree grant was a better player than johnson

 

[The Blue Baggers]

This is what I'm talking about. Mike's entire list is pretty clearly a thinly veiled troll, so how do you figure Scarlett being one solitary place ahead of Silvagni is the single biggest anomoly? Don't get me wrong, I'm a Geelong supporter and I actually have SOS ahead (marginally), though their respective positions are not nearly as outrageous as:

Hodge at 15
Brad Johnson at 22
Matera at 10
Riewoldt and Pav at 48 and 50 compared to J. Brown at 34
....just for starters

agree not much splits silvagni & scarlett but considering how hard it is to find champion defenders both could be higher

disagree on Hodge ... and rate him v high .. there has been no better finals player this century

agree again johnson , as someone else said grant should have been instead and that is comparing bulldogs alone

matera was a gun but @ 10 I would take SOS or Scarlett before him

personally i rate riewoldt above brown

 

[ExTasDeeMan]

No Liam Jones - that's bullshit.

 

[Ricmel]

Tough gig to do a list like this. Lot of great players are going to miss out. But I think Sheahan has got a lot wrong in this one. Top 5 is right, altough you could argue about the order all day long. Voss at 6....that is lovechild stuff. I would have all of Hird, Buckley, Harvey and Judd ahead of Voss.

Simon Black ahead of Kernahan, Tredrea or Riewoldt - I'd take any of those three at Saints ahead of Black in a heart beat. Brad Johnson at 22 - would not be in my top 50, would take Richo ahead of Johnson all day long.

Lynch, Crawford, Lappin - not sure they belong in this list.

 

[Marlowe]

Forgot Brad Johnson played so many games.

I also really thought this would be a list comprised of players who debuted in the last 25 years.

 

[KillaKanga]

ummmmm
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2014&rt=LT&st=R5 - 2014
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2013&rt=LT&st=R5 - 2013
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2012&rt=LT&st=R5 - 2012
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2011&rt=LT&st=R5 - 2011

Not sure this backs up your argument.

Ouch.

In 2012 he did avg 25% more than GAJr. That's gotta be something, right?

 

[KillaKanga]

Simon Black ahead of Kernahan, Tredrea or Riewoldt - I'd take any of those three at Saints ahead of Black in a heart beat.

Heartbeat?? Black was seriously good. Obviously Sticks, Tredders and Roo are premier KPF's but they all needed quality midfielders to get it to them. Very hard to compare different position, another reason why ranking everyone together is so problematic. Black would be in the top 20 midfielders for the last 25 years.

 

[Monkey King]

... so how do you figure Scarlett being one solitary place ahead of Silvagni is the single biggest anomoly?

I wasn't talking about their respective rankings. I was talking about Mike pushing his Scarlett being a better FB than SOS belief. As I said, if he thinks that then so be it, but as a footballer, SOS was far more than just a FB, despite it being the position he's most lauded for. Mike may want to use this list to push his opinion on them as fullbacks, but in doing so, I think he's ignored the rest of SOS as a player and this IMO is the biggest stuff up on his list. Admittedly Hodge at 15 is a fair joke too, particularly considering his annual Top 50 lists would utterly undermine this ranking.

 

[The Blue Baggers]

Tough gig to do a list like this. Lot of great players are going to miss out. But I think Sheahan has got a lot wrong in this one. Top 5 is right, altough you could argue about the order all day long. Voss at 6....that is lovechild stuff. I would have all of Hird, Buckley, Harvey and Judd ahead of Voss.

Simon Black ahead of Kernahan, Tredrea or Riewoldt - I'd take any of those three at Saints ahead of Black in a heart beat. Brad Johnson at 22 - would not be in my top 50, would take Richo ahead of Johnson all day long.

Lynch, Crawford, Lappin - not sure they belong in this list.

it's just one persons opinion but l would certainly have kernahan and riewoldt above black

most are agreeing brad johnson was lucky to be rated in the top 50 , and @ richie benaud he is way too high , even bulldog supporters would choose grant

I rate bradley ahead of crawford and by a long way ... then again I think bradley has been way under rated by many

 

[The Blue Baggers]

You obviously never watched Stynes if you believe Cox was different/better.

Stynes averaged 25.58 disposals per game playing in the ruck in 1991 (the year he won the Brownlow), plus had four other seasons where he average 20+ disposals in the ruck. He played in an era of much lower disposal numbers overall, yet averaged more disposals and marks per game during his career than Cox. He was a ruck/mid hybrid (not the first, but one of the best) way before anyone knew who Cox was.

that's stynes's issue , he played more as a ruck rover collecting stats rather than a true ruckman

cox has been clearly the best ruckman since simon madden in the 80's

 

[bjgoddard18]

Pavlich at 50 is a joke (6x all australian and 6 BnFs 300+ games 600+ goals) If someone said 'I rate Nigel Lappin ahead of Matthew Pavlich' you'd turn around and walk away.
Riewoldt similarly at 48 (5x all australian 6 BnFs, Player's MVP, rising star, 280 games 600+ goals)
Both have been better than at least 25 players on that list.
As mentioned Richo, Grant and West all should be in.

 

[Damon_3388]

that's stynes's issue , he played more as a ruck rover collecting stats rather than a true ruckman

cox has been clearly the best ruckman since simon madden in the 80's

So Stynes wasn't a "true ruckman", yet he ranked in the top five in total hitouts in seven separate seasons? Could have fooled me.

Puzzling how you're seeing his elite workrate and endurance, and ability to find the footy (arguably the greatest running, ball-getting ruckman of all time), as some sort of negative in comparison to Cox.

Stynes played in a much lower-possession and lower-stoppage era, and was a fine tap ruckman, but also had the ability to run his opponent into the ground. Just foolish IMO to think he was somehow inferior to Cox, just "collecting stats" as you put it.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

should have a crack at this

1: Gary Ablett Jnr. Too young to remember Matthews, but since 1990, the best player of our fine game.
2: Wayne Carey - Splitting hairs here. But junior has the magic to go with the dominance
3: Gary Ablett Snr
4: Tony Lockett - Leading goal kicker & a Brownlow. Trumps Dunstall.
5: Jason Dunstall - Loses a spot to the best forward of all time.
Eq.6: Michael Voss
Eq.6: James Hird - Not going to try and justify this. Equal footing with Voss. Even won the same brownlow
8: Greg Williams
9:Sam Mitchell - Outside of junior, the best i've seen. From the day he started, has not skipped a beat
10: Simon Black - Far too low. Matched one of the best in Voss, in one of the best teams in the Lions.
11: Chris Judd - Not better than Hird or Voss. And i reckon Mitchell has gone past him. Injuries an influence
12: Dean Cox
13: Andrew McLeod
14: Chris Grant - So good at CHF/CHB. Along with West, underrated for how good he was.
15: Peter Matera - Enigmatic and classy. But a touch high.
16: Nathan Buckley
17: Lance Franklin
18: Stephen Kernahan
19: Stephen Silvagni - In a time of head to head battles with the best forwards, he was the best FB
20: Scott West - His record reads like royalty. Criminally underrated midfielder
21: Matthew Lloyd - 7th on the all time goal kicker list. Straddled the old school and modern day.
22: Matthew Scarlett - Best modern day defender.
23: Ben Cousins
24: Paul Kelly
25: Glen Jackovich
26: Mark Ricciuto
27: Paul Roos - He was good, but was a little high in my opinion
28: John Platton
29: Jason Akermanis
30: Gavin Wanganeen
31: Jarryd Roughead - One of the best I've seen, and his versatility is incredible. expect him to climb this list.
32: Shaun Burgoyne - 4 flags from 7 appearances, and just class with the call in hand
33: Joel Selwood
34: Jonathan Brown
35: Richo - I had Sav above him, then checked the goal kickers list. When Richo got to 11th i don't know, but kudos. Mike, you're an idiot.
36: Matthew Pavlich - Will do down as one of the best without a flag or brownlow.
37: Craig Bradley
38: Warren Tredrea - Far too low. Great all round forward
39: Luke Hodge - Too high. He is a warrior no doubt. And a great leader. But there are better skilled players.
40: Chris Langford
41: Adam Goodes - Top 50, but i move him down a bit. But one of the better utilities of the AFL era
42: Lenny Hayes - Good St Kilda or rubbish St Kilda, Lenny was class until the end.
43: Corey McKernan - Gotta have him above Salmon.
44: Darren Jarman
45: Jimmy Bartel
46: Dustin Fletcher - stays in. freakish ability as a spoiler and elite in the QB-esque position
47: Alistair Lynch - move him down. Better forwards, but deserves to be on this list.
48: Shane Crawford - too high on the list, but one of the early elite runners of the game. Super clean disposal
49: Nigel Lappin
50: Nick Riewoldt - I can't not have him on the list, so Rocca misses out.

You kinda forgot Robert Harvey mate

 

[The_Flying_Egg]

People might not like Johnson being 22 ... taking him out of the 50 is overcompensating. There hasn't been another mid capable of doing what he did as a forward in a very long time. His 2006 season is one of the most under-rated seasons I've encountered. People his size don't kick 72 goals in the modern game, while still getting midfielder possession stats

 

[Sprout]

that's stynes's issue , he played more as a ruck rover collecting stats rather than a true ruckman

cox has been clearly the best ruckman since simon madden in the 80's

So when Cox collected possessions he was a transformative ruck-mid. When Stynes collected more of them, that's his "issue" because he's "not a true ruckman".

"Not a true ruckman" who consistently ranked in the top five for hitouts over the course of his career.

 

[LongoDongo]

Peter Moore (VFL) and Stephen Michael (WAFL) went alright back in the eighties.
Moore won two Brownlow Medals (1979, 1984), started his career at full forward for Collingwood, kicked 60 or 70 goals in '77, then became a dominant running ruckman. All that talk about Cox being the first ruck/midfielder was just a myth. People repeat it so often, they believe it to be a fact.

..cos it is fact