Nick Suban - When?

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clogged said:
Well despite only having 50% game time I thought this was one of his best games for the club. The side needed a boost and he provided that in the first five minutes he was on.

He still has massive flaws, and I'm still not convinced he's any good, but hopefully this wake up call sticks and he plays more games closer to this than usual.
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I remember a very good game against Adelaide last year in the wet and a super game against Carlton at Etihad last year too, I'd regard those as his best in my memory at least.

As for this game, he did what many miss - he provides real physicality in the contested play. He added a bit of polish and run to his game today which is really what he needs if he's going to be a lock-in regular, but he's not as far away as many think. He'll never be an A grader Fyfe or Mundy - but he can give you that grunt and extra 10% that sometimes you need to get over the top and win these sorts of games.

He's also one of the few who seems to handle the substitute role well.
 
One of his better games but still not addressing the main issue. He's very left sided and has no evasive skills at all. He relies on bullocking through players which simply doesn't work any more because of better tackling techniques. He gets caught HTB more than anyone on our list and is very easy to shut down.

Just being a good kick alone is not enough to make him a regular member of the side.
 

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PapaJ said:
As for this game, he did what many miss - he provides real physicality in the contested play. He added a bit of polish and run to his game today which is really what he needs if he's going to be a lock-in regular, but he's not as far away as many think. He'll never be an A grader Fyfe or Mundy - but he can give you that grunt and extra 10% that sometimes you need to get over the top and win these sorts of games.
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I think most people are aware of that. The question is whether he does it enough - both within games and from game to game. Bringing that effort out when your head is on the chopping block isn't enough. My hope is that he builds on it, rather than simply returning to his usual mediocre standard.

His problem is there are better players waiting in the wings who only have to build slight consistency in their game to go past him. At the start of the year most people probably would have had Suban having a better claim on best 22 than Neale. Would anyone think that now?

He's also one of the few who seems to handle the substitute role well.
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His performance as sub against Sydney was ordinary, but for the most part I'd agree with that.
 
Everyone would love Sylvia to be this great player that is somehow going to step back in to AFL and be totally awesome. Here is the thing, he is not playing great football at WAFL level. An example was, Headland. When he went to WAFL he would kick a lazy 7 goals. Walters was consistently kicking 4 goals a game as a forward for around 10 weeks before getting called up. It makes no sense to bring in a player under performing just to replace another player under performing.

Kepler on the other hand is due.

On topic, Suban was the sub, and I am not sure what his role was so will have to watch the game again. I guess if you are into fantasy comps and view those numbers then you would be disappointed, but I am quite sure he was doing a negating role. I still believe players that can kick are worth more than players that find the pill more but cough it up. Turnovers lose matches. Still he is clearly down on confidence so WAFL is probably the next step. Crozier missed that important goal which would have cemented his spot so close call between them both for me. Likely next week Croz sub, Suban WAFL, Big Kep to solve our half forward headache.
 
clogged said:
I think most people are aware of that. The question is whether he does it enough - both within games and from game to game. Bringing that effort out when your head is on the chopping block isn't enough. My hope is that he builds on it, rather than simply returning to his usual mediocre standard.

His problem is there are better players waiting in the wings who only have to build slight consistency in their game to go past him. At the start of the year most people probably would have had Suban having a better claim on best 22 than Neale. Would anyone think that now?
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Yeah, wouldn't disagree with that - point I was trying to make, and didn't do it well reading my post again, is that even this year where his perceived form has been average (and it has), he's still provided some decent grunt in the contested ball. I remember numerous occasions where he's screened Fyfe's man off, or sacrificed his body to create space for some other player. He really likes to throw his body around in there, and I think it's actually meant to be his role. It's just something that is missed by many I think.

Having said that, I still agree with you, he's always on the edge and unless he brings that extra bit of polish and ball use, then he is a bit of an unneeded extra.

On the sub thing, maybe better to say that he handles it better than most on our list (especially now that Sutty is a regular starter, he handled the green vest job relatively well too).
 
Frigate said:
Everyone would love Sylvia to be this great player that is somehow going to step back in to AFL and be totally awesome. Here is the thing, he is not playing great football at WAFL level. An example was, Headland. When he went to WAFL he would kick a lazy 7 goals. Walters was consistently kicking 4 goals a game as a forward for around 10 weeks before getting called up. It makes no sense to bring in a player under performing just to replace another player under performing.
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Was Des Headland playing for the worst side in the comp when he was kicking a lazy 7 goals?

I'd like to see what Suban or DeBoer would do in a Peel game. My guess is probably not much.
 
pokerspiv said:
Was Des Headland playing for the worst side in the comp when he was kicking a lazy 7 goals?

I'd like to see what Suban or DeBoer would do in a Peel game. My guess is probably not much.
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Exactly my point, Des would walk into the WAFL and make it look like a proving ground. He would always kill it at that level gathering a lazy 40 touches, then coming into AFL he would struggle for consistency - he did battle injury when in career best form IMO.

So what is the expectation of players that struggle to kick a single goal, take 5 marks and reach 20 possessions at WAFL. Sure, just play them, they will certainly play better in AFL than they will in the local rag coz it is so much easier. Especially because they have "a big body". What does Lachie think about the need for another big bodied midfielder?

Suban has to contended many times for his position in the team coming back from injury etc. Not long ago many were saying he was Captain material. I am confident that you put 2 grand final capable mids into a WAFL team they would be welcome additions. I think De Boar would kill the pig.
 
Frigate said:
I am confident that you put 2 grand final capable mids into a WAFL team they would be welcome additions. I think De Boar would kill the pig.
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I'm not sure if you remember the Grand Final but both of them were terrible in it.
 
No, it's always been his fitness. The club has said so every time the question has been asked.

The injuries are why it took so long for him to get fit.

It's only the conspiracy theorists on this board who have imagined all the other reasons why he's not playing.
 
pokerspiv said:
I'm not sure if you remember the Grand Final but both of them were terrible in it.
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They were good contributors during the year to get to an AFL GF. it rates more highly than such as been one of the best players in a team that had trouble breaking in to the top 14 in the competition. Also better than those that flew on a plane to watch it, or already thinking about preseason.

Clearly you achieved a lot in your career - more than Matt De Boar and Nick Suban. Probably a better coach than Ross too?
 

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pokerspiv said:
No, it's always been his fitness. The club has said so every time the question has been asked.

The injuries are why it took so long for him to get fit.

It's only the conspiracy theorists on this board who have imagined all the other reasons why he's not playing.
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The 2 weeks missed for the punch in the head had nothing to do with fitness and sure didnt help in him improving his fitness with game time
 
No excuses now, simply must put in 3 good weeks in the WAFL and then be ready for the AFL after the bye. At his best, will be a big improvement on our 22nd best player.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-05-05/sylvia-closes-on-freo-debut

"He's had some interruptions and the suspension didn't help but he played on the weekend," Lyon told Channel Seven's Talking Footy on Monday night.

"The two-week suspension allowed us to punch in some significant kilometres into him to bring his fitness up a little bit.

"We're really looking for him to make a move in the next two to three weeks and really give us some impetus in relation to the rest of the season."
 
pokerspiv said:
Oh this argument again. Anybody who is not an AFL coach or player can not have an opinion. Who did you coach/play for?
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hahaha, I was the standard Z grade hero. There were not many players that you could call good players for us on GF day. But they all earned their place in that team. So better to pick holes in players based on careers rather than one single performance.
 
Alright, so where has the love gone for Nicholas Suban? His birthday is on Friday at which he point he will turn 24, the same number that he was drafted to Freo in 2008. He stands at 180cm tall and weighs in at 82kg. He has battled injury throughout his career, and often considered quite a hard nut it was common to see him wearing bandages or having to leave the ground with head knocks. Probably one of the best left foot kicks we have had at the club behind Stephen Hill. He has been used in a number of roles, and although considered a midfielder he is probably most damaging running the ball out of defence. He has always shown good defensive skills and a good tackler averaging 3.3 over his career.

He has been used as a sub on numerous occasions making his recent stats not reflect his contributions. In his whole career he has only ever polled Brownlow votes on one occasion which was last year in round 20 (BOG). Last year he kicked multiple goals in 6 games, including 2 against Sydney in the Prelim final.

So again I come back to the opening question - there is a 24 year old kid with elite foot skills, who can tackle and defensively play the Ross Lyon game, also plays a number of roles forward, mid, back and run with player. A good shot on goal even under pressure. He is on 90 games now, and had his best year in AFL in 2013. Suddenly in 2014, Suban is on many supporters bad list. I don't understand it. If anything he has improved his consistency, especially away games (based on 2013). I will admit that I have been a critic of Suban in the past based on his away game form over the years, but last year I was impressed with how he went about it.

I hope he gets another couple of chances to prove the doubters wrong, coz I believe he is still in our best 22.
 
pokerspiv said:
No, it's always been his fitness. The club has said so every time the question has been asked.

The injuries are why it took so long for him to get fit.

It's only the conspiracy theorists on this board who have imagined all the other reasons why he's not playing.
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Doesn't really matter does it?
Whatever is keeping him out is still keeping him out.
That being said, I do have trust in the coaching staff's judgement, so when they think Colin's ready, he's ready, and will kick up a storm for us.
 
Frigate said:
Clearly you achieved a lot in your career - more than Matt De Boar and Nick Suban. Probably a better coach than Ross too?
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What a s**t argument.

Does that mean you can't complain about TV because you're not a director or writer? Or that you can't say Basil is a dull, dry commentator because you've never called a game? Or that an artists bad because you were never in the National Gallery?

Fremantle supporters can be so soft.

Suban has gotten a few games this season when he probably could've been turfed, or when a younger bloke or actual fringe player would've been dropped. I still see a bit in him and believe ardently he's best in the forward line (he's not a great athlete – unless you're a champion who reads the play freakishly well like Hase, who put a weird body shape to redundancy – you kind of have to be to play as a midfielder). I'd like to see him get a few games there before anything serious comes down.

He's in a strange place: something like 100 games and half way through his career. But seemingly just bobbling along, despite not being anywhere near delist material.
 
Frigate said:
Alright, so where has the love gone for Nicholas Suban? His birthday is on Friday at which he point he will turn 24, the same number that he was drafted to Freo in 2008. He stands at 180cm tall and weighs in at 82kg. He has battled injury throughout his career, and often considered quite a hard nut it was common to see him wearing bandages or having to leave the ground with head knocks. Probably one of the best left foot kicks we have had at the club behind Stephen Hill. He has been used in a number of roles, and although considered a midfielder he is probably most damaging running the ball out of defence. He has always shown good defensive skills and a good tackler averaging 3.3 over his career.

He has been used as a sub on numerous occasions making his recent stats not reflect his contributions. In his whole career he has only ever polled Brownlow votes on one occasion which was last year in round 20 (BOG). Last year he kicked multiple goals in 6 games, including 2 against Sydney in the Prelim final.

So again I come back to the opening question - there is a 24 year old kid with elite foot skills, who can tackle and defensively play the Ross Lyon game, also plays a number of roles forward, mid, back and run with player. A good shot on goal even under pressure. He is on 90 games now, and had his best year in AFL in 2013. Suddenly in 2014, Suban is on many supporters bad list. I don't understand it. If anything he has improved his consistency, especially away games (based on 2013). I will admit that I have been a critic of Suban in the past based on his away game form over the years, but last year I was impressed with how he went about it.

I hope he gets another couple of chances to prove the doubters wrong, coz I believe he is still in our best 22.
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Have always liked his desperation and strength around a contest.

Is he best 22? I would suggest he rates somewhere between 20-25, why? because he does not get his hands on the ball enough.

Statistics are not everything but throughout his career he just does not seem to have the capacity to "do a Lachie Neale" and have that sought of impact on a game. Maybe it is because he gets the negating DeBoer type roles, but I have not noticed that.

I like his footy weapons, but we need to see them more often and consistently!
 
After a string of decent games mid season against mediocre-to-bad clubs, Suban performed poorly against Geelong and was dropped for the Hawthorn game. He was not missed, as Walters and Crozier played superbly and showed what true class forward of centre can do against the best in the competition.

He earned a reprieve against Brisbane due to the suspension and injury to Fyfe and Barlow respectively, however his performance did not suggest he will keep his spot in the team once those two are back. Unless he plays a stellar game against Port, he will not play finals.

Suban's 2014 is arguably worse than 2013, with him down in almost all key stats, and kicking fewer goals. His best games once again came against the weakest clubs, being either against GWS or Melbourne this year.

What is the long term future for Suban? Next year he is 25, and should be at the peak of his abilities. But players continue to go past him - both Neale and Sutcliffe are definitely ahead of him based on this year, and Crozier has closed the gap. With guys like Morabito, Sylvia, Sheridan and Duffy on the sidelines, as well as younger blokes like Ballard and Grey expected to demand selection in 2015, Suban can expect to further slip behind if he does not improve.

What I hope is that Suban plays a massive game against Port. The club needs him to step up and show why they gave him a long contract and why they have kept the faith in him. Without Fyfe and Barlow in the most important game so far this year, he needs to deliver.
 
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He's got 2 big problems that I can see:

1. He just doesn't get enough of the ball. Struggles to read the play.
2. He doesn't have any evasive skills. His only move is to try and plow through a tackle. That might have worked in under 18s when you were bigger than the other kids, but it doesn't work against AFL players. Other than that, he just tries to run around the pressure player in an arc, which means he ends up kicking a lot of balls from close to the boundary line.

His big plus is his kicking which is right up there. But he doesn't get enough of it to be really damaging with it. He is also a strong tackler.

Maybe he could become a tagger? But apart from that he is going to struggle to get a game as a midfielder unless he can start getting it more often.

It's not like he's down on form either IMO. He has put up very low possession numbers ever since joining the club. Averages 13 disposals in his AFL career. Has only cracked 20 twice in 14 games at WAFL level. Stats aren't everything but those numbers are very low for a mid. Even Crowley averages close to 15.
 
For me he is one of those players who is more than handy on the list, and could be best 22 for some other clubs. As you say he is now under pressure by a small flotilla of young players, not that Suban is old. If he keeps ahead of those guys good on him, but at the moment he is on the cusp.

If someone came knocking and asking about his availability for trade I think we should be open to offers. I think there is such a thing as too much depth, and it is important to re-balance your list when the opportunity is there. I have him in a basket alongside de Boer and C Pearce as players who sit just outside best 22 who could have value for other clubs when trade time comes around.
 
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