Analysis Pluck the Hawks...

[clogged]

Anyway, I thought Brad Hill was as weak as piss tonight, if Stephen played like that you'd never hear the end of it but I bet we don't hear a peep about Brad

I thought it was an amazingly soft game from Brad - Stephen has never played anywhere near that badly aside from his first couple of games.

I reckon opposition coaches would take a lot from how both Smith and Hill were made ineffective. Counter their run and Hawthorn look slow - like they did in 2010.

 

[Steinfreo]

It also helped Roughead stunk it up. Also frawley

 

[clogged]

It also helped Roughead stunk it up. Also frawley

Rance and Chaplin thrashed him and Gunston.

Shows just how good Pav was last week.

 

[rodney hoo]

I somehow think it has to be Williams coming up with these brilliant tactical plans not Hardwick. Say what you like about Williams the bloke but he is still one of the games best thinkers.
Anyway, I thought Brad Hill was as weak as piss tonight, if Stephen played like that you'd never hear the end of it but I bet we don't hear a peep about Brad

Don't get me wrong, I think Hardwick is running the show there but they have certainly been better since Williams has been back from that cancer he got over. He seems to have a bit to say as well when the players running on and off. Don't see Hardwick on the phone in the box much either.
Yes Steven Hill is one our top five players, yet gets unnecessary rubbished by supporters at times.

 

[rodney hoo]

Rance and Chaplin thrashed him and Gunston.

Shows just how good Pav was last week.

Yes Pav plays like that in GF we are a long way there. It looked to me that at times Rance went to Rioli and physically banged him. When Rioli ducted and got that not there free four of them smashed him, might be a bit of insight there as well, don't let him run and bang him.
One other point is IMO we need to play Clarke on Maric/Mceboy more and tell him to get physical and sit Sandi in the inside 50 , tell him if he marks it unless there is 100% hand ball to kick the goal.

 

[DudleyDocker]

I thought it was an amazingly soft game from Brad - Stephen has never played anywhere near that badly aside from his first couple of games.

I reckon opposition coaches would take a lot from how both Smith and Hill were made ineffective. Counter their run and Hawthorn look slow - like they did in 2010.

Round 20 last year which we won, I'm pretty sure Crowley went to Smith and Stephen Hill played against his brother.

I think you are right.

 

[wehavethepassion]

Damien Hardwick did a real number on Hawthorn tonight - given we'll be playing the Hawks again in the finals, I'd really like to break-down how he did it.

Richmond denied the hawks their marking game brilliantly, then ran and hand-balled it out of congestion at stoppages all night. It really rattled the hawks and they had no counter. The first quarter was a revelation! Ten minutes in, the tigers had quadrupled the hawks possession count - they weren't scoring, but they controlled the tempo utterly.

This is the exact opposite of our run and gun style this season, but it utterly unraveled the hawks and kept them scoreless for the first quarter. I think this approach will work much better against the Hawks as it stops their flowing attacking play.

One thing I did notice was the Tiger's contested marking was superb all night, and without it, the plan would not have worked so well.

Can we reproduce this stifling, spoil and run approach while still using our transition-heavy game plan?

All thoughts welcome.

EDIT: sorry bout the typos - I'm writing this on a cheap android tablet... auto-correct and a lousy touch keyboard make for an annoying combination. ...never made that many typos in one post in my life!

Great analysis gecko. Hopefully the dockers had reps at the ground to watch. It was probably one of the strongest Hawks sides fielded last nite. Lyon is on notice. What he has been doing V Hawks has not worked.

 

[Kram]

Funny how the Hawks had 20 more tackles.

Looks like tackling pressure doesn't win games.

Tackle counts mean very little as a stat these days.

 

[clogged]

Round 20 last year which we won, I'm pretty sure Crowley went to Smith and Stephen Hill played against his brother.

I think you are right.

I'm actually thinking back to the 2010 EF, where Hawthorn thought they were certainties and ended up embarrassed. Both Morabito and Hill dominated that day, and Hawthorn, despite getting winning in a number of key stats, didn't have an answer.

I reckon the Hawks learned a lot from that loss. That as good as their midfield was with its elite kicking, they lacked outside run. After that they recruited Smith, then Brad Hill in 2011.

 

[Scham]

Round 20 last year which we won, I'm pretty sure Crowley went to Smith and Stephen Hill played against his brother.

I think you are right.

I don't think it works playing Stephen on him. Needs to be someone that he's not comfortable with and has some mongrel about him. The guy is soft, that's the only reason he wasn't a high draft pick. He spends most games without anyone near him and looks a million dollars but last night reminded me of his colts games at WP where the opposition got stuck into him every week to put him off his game - he didn't want to know about it.

 

[Scham]

I agree, one of the best games I have seen him play. I also like how they normally left one forward on the 50m line to have a contest to go to.

Richmond had enough speedsters to cover Hill, Hartung, Smith and to a lesser degree Rioli. If you can do that then much of the rest of their midfield is slow.
Somehow also Hawthorn third up man was not seen much so they negated that as well.

This is the best summation so far.

Maric or the ruck is crucial, Sandi needs to do more other than win some taps.

Pace and aggression are crucial.

Add to that, that you must make them work hard to win the ball back after you've got possession i.e plenty of short passing, switching etc.

 

[go_the_dockers]

The hawks tend to pressure the receiver downfield more than the ball carrier, its something we've added to our game this year I note, which explains our lower tackle counts.

I think the hawks were forced to tackle more - richmond would go the spoil really often and make the contest a ground-ball wrestle. It meant Hawthorn had to focus on the ball-handler as the Tigers were refusing to throw it on the boot or kick to a contest upfield. By handballing out the side of stoppages, their was no opportunity for the Hawks to intercept mark with their well-structured zone up field. The tigers found an open man by hand, then ran it out with lots of lateral movement- they would only kick when there was a clear option to kick to... A very impressive piece of strategy from Hardwick.

Tigers did not bomb the ball long at all, they hand balled out of the stoppages until they found a man with time to find an open man.

They were not afraid to kick the ball side ways, and this made the Hawks work to close down the open man.

There zone was brilliant, and they did not give the Hawks an open man to kick to. I say zone, it was pretty close to man on man, where every played worked extremely hard to cover there man and this caused several turn overs.

Next thing you need to do is break even at the stoppages, and stop the Hawks speedsters from getting free. Because if the Hawks can't get the short passing game going, they can get goals out the back by using their clean skills and pace.

Not easy to do in the regular season, a lot more difficult in the finals when the Hawks will working there butts off.

 

[malpaso]

They were not afraid to kick the ball side ways, and this made the Hawks work to close down the open man.

This is to me is the most important. I think the Hawks can be 'worn down' over the course of a game by doing this, they are very old.

 

[StingBitten]

Hawks are dropping back into 4th gear. They know top 2 is unlikely and also know they'll probably have to travel west. They'll comfortably shore up a top 4 spot and unleash their best at the most opportune moment.

 

[raffrox]

Hawks are dropping back into 4th gear. They know top 2 is unlikely and also know they'll probably have to travel west. They'll comfortably shore up a top 4 spot and unleash their best at the most opportune moment.

The bookies would have us as the team that they will be playing in week one so it will be interesting.

 

[Rion]

Hawks are dropping back into 4th gear. They know top 2 is unlikely and also know they'll probably have to travel west. They'll comfortably shore up a top 4 spot and unleash their best at the most opportune moment.

Don't buy that, Hawthorn are a champion team but playing Freo/WC in Perth is a hell of a lot harder than playing either at the MCG. If they are truly as great as they get pumped up to be they would have won tonight and next week, leaving them sitting pretty in the top 2. Richmond exposed some weaknesses of the Hawks and Ross needs to try and get whatever he can out of that game.

 

[awaremind]

Yes it worked very well, bit like Pagans paddock in the Carey days, IMO Clarke could do this.

Clarke is barely worth a game in any role.

 

[awaremind]

Richmond's aggression and ballsy style of play really paid off last night. Hawks look bad when they get physically pummelled, when Martin smashed Frawley that was a great moment and Maric just dominated. the sideway kicking worked even though their skill level let them down quite a bit. I can see we have tried the physicality thing on them in the past, think 2 weeks ago and also 2013 gf but we have somehow stuffed it up and its probably contributed to our loss and frustration, think Fyfe the other week, Dawson on Gunston in 2013.

 

[PurpleReign]

Tigers did not bomb the ball long at all, they hand balled out of the stoppages until they found a man with time to find an open man.

They were not afraid to kick the ball side ways, and this made the Hawks work to close down the open man.

There zone was brilliant, and they did not give the Hawks an open man to kick to. I say zone, it was pretty close to man on man, where every played worked extremely hard to cover there man and this caused several turn overs.

Next thing you need to do is break even at the stoppages, and stop the Hawks speedsters from getting free. Because if the Hawks can't get the short passing game going, they can get goals out the back by using their clean skills and pace.

Not easy to do in the regular season, a lot more difficult in the finals when the Hawks will working there butts off.

I thought there were a couple of moments in the early stages of the first qtr that were quite interesting. The Hawks had zoned off all around the ground after the Tigers had won a kick and initially I thought the Tigers had gotten themselves into trouble by not moving the ball quickly.
With any zone it's about protecting space and not about covering a man. Once the ball is kicked you can then close down the man much like Ibbo, Fyfe and Barlow did when they all converged on Lambert following the Houli kick-in in the Tiges/Freo game.
With the Hawks having established their zone, Richmond were able to find short, 30m hit-up kicks by simply running into the space between the zone. The short kick doesn't give the opposition enough time to get to the marking contest. Once the Tiges got the ball moving again the movement created space and opportunities and they could then accelerate the ball movement.
The zone looks imposing, it creates implied pressure as Salim pointed out earlier but it can be broken down with patience and good skills by foot. You also have to choose the right moment to accelerate.
I think freo have been a bit too manic at times with their ball movement, I'd like to see a more patient build up to our run and gun style, although this style of footy does require sideways and backwards kicking which can get a bit frustrating to watch.
Another aspect of The Hawks game last night which appeared to be a weakness was their ruck, not so much the ball-ups but their contested marking around the ground. Maric and Vickery were able to win some key contests at important moments, Hale was barely sighted. Theoretically this is an area where we could also expose them but in practice we haven't been able to manage this.

 

[XXRL]

I thought there were a couple of moments in the early stages of the first qtr that were quite interesting. The Hawks had zoned off all around the ground after the Tigers had won a kick and initially I thought the Tigers had gotten themselves into trouble by not moving the ball quickly.
With any zone it's about protecting space and not about covering a man. Once the ball is kicked you can then close down the man much like Ibbo, Fyfe and Barlow did when they all converged on Lambert following the Houli kick-in in the Tiges/Freo game.
With the Hawks having established their zone, Richmond were able to find short, 30m hit-up kicks by simply running into the space between the zone. The short kick doesn't give the opposition enough time to get to the marking contest. Once the Tiges got the ball moving again the movement created space and opportunities and they could then accelerate the ball movement.
The zone looks imposing, it creates implied pressure as Salim pointed out earlier but it can be broken down with patience and good skills by foot. You also have to choose the right moment to accelerate.
I think freo have been a bit too manic at times with their ball movement, I'd like to see a more patient build up to our run and gun style, although this style of footy does require sideways and backwards kicking which can get a bit frustrating to watch.
Another aspect of The Hawks game last night which appeared to be a weakness was their ruck, not so much the ball-ups but their contested marking around the ground. Maric and Vickery were able to win some key contests at important moments, Hale was barely sighted. Theoretically this is an area where we could also expose them but in practice we haven't been able to manage this.

Good post.

Seems to me that we are good at moving the ball at two speeds: flat out counter attack or slow, down the line, lots of stoppages.

Hawthorn and Richmond are able to play that 'tempo' footy a bit better than us where they control possession and methodically work their way through the zone with 20-30m passes until an option opens up. Obviously, this takes patience, good decision making and good kicking skills because of you turn it over you get shredded on the counter. We tend to play long and safe down the line instead.

 

[Gekko71]

...With the Hawks having established their zone, Richmond were able to find short, 30m hit-up kicks by simply running into the space between the zone. The short kick doesn't give the opposition enough time to get to the marking contest. Once the Tiges got the ball moving again the movement created space and opportunities and they could then accelerate the ball movement.
The zone looks imposing, it creates implied pressure as Salim pointed out earlier but it can be broken down with patience and good skills by foot. You also have to choose the right moment to accelerate....

Precisely PR - The G is such a wide ground the holes in a zone defense can become so wide that this approach is feasible. In this kind of situation, the closing speed of players in a zone defense becomes a factor as they run to pressure the receiver of the ball and create a turnover. Late in the game, players become so fatigued that their closing speed suffers and a zone can get picked apart.

Richmond however picked apart the Hawks zone early in the first quarter, when fatigue wasn't a factor, and they did it through the short chipping kicks you described. You can't do this as Subi oval as the narrowness of the ground closes the distances between players in the zone -you can get caught out by a tired player as the distance they have to run to reach te receiver is so much less.

Point being, this possession-retention pproach to playing against a zone only works at the G, because of the size of the field... and it only works if the attacking team is very accurate by foot.

Our second stringers like MTB - despite all their strengths - aren't accurate enough by foot to execute this plan consistently enough. Richmond had given us a blueprint to deconstruct Hawthorn attacking run at the G ...but we need to lift the kicking accuracy of our worst field kicks in order to follow it.

Given all the above, I could not be happier that so many young, quick, accurate-kicking mids are knocking on the door. Hopefully RTB gives them the opportunities they need to cement a place in the side.

 

[Banker]

Don't get me wrong, I think Hardwick is running the show there but they have certainly been better since Williams has been back from that cancer he got over. He seems to have a bit to say as well when the players running on and off. Don't see Hardwick on the phone in the box much either.
Yes Steven Hill is one our top five players, yet gets unnecessary rubbished by supporters at times.

Thats because he was pick 3 in the draft.

I have always said B Hill and Cyril would struggle in a team thats not Hawks. They never get tagged and their output is average.

 

[Sully90]

Lots of good points in this thread.

One thing that sticks out to me from last night's game was always using vickery or Maric deep. Not just because it's nice to have someone close to goal, but also it forced them to split up Lake and Gibson, meaning one couldn't always peel off and intercept. I think Richmond also used this tactic successfully against us in Perth.

Overall though, it proved a good point that any team can look bog ordinary if you upset their Plan A.

 

[Gekko71]

The other thing I found vey interesting was the way richmond generated intercept marks and turnovers in the third quarter.

The hawks are so dangerous going forward normally, the way this part of their game fell down in the second half was noteworthy. More than just a few wayward passes were made by a team that has made possession and accurate disposal their trademark.

I can't really tell from televised game footage how richmond were setting up in the midfield on the defensive transition, but whatever was going on, it really generated a lot of turnovers. -IIRC, according to afl.com the tigers scored half their goals from midfield intercept marking - that's a significant stat and I'm interested to know how they engineered it.

Anyone got any thoughts on this front? Did the tigers simply get into Hawthorn's heads and screw with their confidence, or was there some midfield-positioning voodoo going on?

 

[rodney hoo]

Clarke is barely worth a game in any role.

Very very harsh, at start year everyone was saying how good he was.