Society/Culture Progressives, what is the most conservative belief you hold? And vice-versa for conservatives?

[kranky al]

Im hawkish on defence - we are either all in with big brother usa with the cost that entails morally and in broken soldiers - or we spend double to triple what we do on defence and reintroduce a form of conscription.

I believe that if you have kids taken off you due to drugs or alcohol abuse you should be offered a substantial sum to get sterilised.

Too many kids born one after the other with foetal alcohol / drug withdrawals. Those kids should have rights too.

 

[Gethelred]

I have balanced views in some areas but I guess the Left/progressive thing I struggle with the most is identity politics / critical theory. I find it dehumanising and actually kind of in opposition to the notions of "all in it together / greater good".
I get that it's complicated, and understand the concept of structural privilege, but these days the way it's being "sold" leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I think some of the problem here lies completely in the degree to which misinformation distorts things.

On one hand, you have a university level idea replete with complexity and full acknowledgement of its limitations and strengths; you then have that idea filtered from professor to student, most of which half understand the idea of socially created 'race' or 'whiteness', semiotics, identity. Then, you have that idea further diluted via the Facebook/Twitter word limit. Then, you have deliberate distortion of propagandists seeking to twist the ideas into a negative; these people absolutely need to understand the idea at least some, so as to alter how people are disposed towards it within the discourse to turn them against it.

In the end, you have an entire series of layers of distortion even before the propagandists get a hold of it for the purposes of demonisation.

Then, you've got the first impressions vs research issue: humans don't really like changing their mind, and if proven wrong go looking for reasons to ignore why or how it happened.

I think labelling the dislike of identity politics/race theories of society bad marketing is probably true, but ignores somewhat the complexity of the various affects of society's disposition towards competing ideologies.

 

[mcgrath_truther]

i'm a big lefty, but i think we need to have a properly independent armed force and have no foreign militaries sitting on our shores.

also think that we need to incorporate nuclear power into our energy grid otherwise we'll be ****ed down the line, which we're already seeing during summer now with the occasional brownout

 

[FireKrakouer]

Big Kanye fan

Saw him live in 2006 and (pardon the cliche) I love his old stuff but not his new stuff.

I have posted in other threads that I believe his controversies are more to do with the peaks and troughs of his mental health rather than to do with any genuine malice. Many of histories greatest artists and scientists have been genuinely insane (or at least have held views outside of their area of expertise that are considered insane).

For example, Van Gogh famously cut his own ear off, and Nikola Tesla believed himself to be married to a pigeon. Keep in mind just about every component in the device you are reading this on was influenced by the work of Tesla.


Then there's John Nash, Howard Hughes, the list goes on m8.

 

[Cap]

Off topic.

But what's the appeal of Kayne?

 

[Gethelred]

Off topic.

But what's the appeal of Kayne?

Some people seemed to like it, but I think they were talking about Kanye West.

 

[Cap]

Some people seemed to like it, but I think they were talking about Kanye West.

Now I'm really confused

 

[Gethelred]

Now I'm really confused

Don't mind me, I'm in a weird mood at present; Legacy of Cain was pretty awesome, and the misspelling made me think of it.

FireKrakouer doesn't think genuine antisematism is genuine if it comes from an artist, or at least it should be excused.

If that's not what you think FK, the floor is yours...

 

[Cap]

Don't mind me, I'm in a weird mood at present; Legacy of Cain was pretty awesome, and the misspelling made me think of it.

FireKrakouer doesn't think genuine antisematism is genuine if it comes from an artist, or at least it should be excused.

If that's not what you think FK, the floor is yours...

Ah I did too, Kanye, fish sticks.

Wait Legacy of Cain is anti Semitic?

This thread moves rapidly.

 

[Gethelred]

Ah I did too, Kanye, fish sticks.

Wait Legacy of Cain is anti Semitic?

Legacy of Cain isn't antisemetic (I think).

Kanye has said a few things which indicate he is.

This thread moves rapidly.

Yep.

 

[Cap]

Legacy of Cain isn't antisemetic (I think).

Kanye has said a few things which indicate he is.

Yep.

Ah right.

Legacy of Can because of my typo

Kanye anti Semitic, I'm on track here

The only so of his I liked was the one remixed by daft punk.

 

[FireKrakouer]

Don't mind me, I'm in a weird mood at present; Legacy of Cain was pretty awesome, and the misspelling made me think of it.

FireKrakouer doesn't think genuine antisematism is genuine if it comes from an artist, or at least it should be excused.

If that's not what you think FK, the floor is yours...

I don't think it's excusable but I also don't think it is reflective of his genuine beliefs that he holds when he is of sound mind. Every few years he seems to quit his meds and enter a manic / psychotic episode.

Eg I have a cousin with schizophrenia who claimed to be Edgar Allan Poe reincarnated. He wrote a 200 page "book" suggesting that Jesus was a homosexual and that if enough people wrote emails to Obama asking nicely then we could denuclearise the world. Nice guy, used to live in a tent at Byron Bay.

When he receives adequate medical treatment he seems like a totally normal fella to chat to though. When he relapses into psychosis he starts yelling a lot, stalking people, and speculating about the sexual proclivities of various historical figures.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Fun thread.

1 Abolish the Military
I spent a year in Costa Rica. After a failed military coup in the late 1940s, the new Constitution abolished the Military. Despite Central America being a bit footloose no-one has invaded them, tho the Seppos have been tempted. Savings have gone to the people and the best health and education systems in Central America.

I see the Oz military as being there for wars of aggression and not defence. Its main value is providing employment for some folk who may not otherwise get a job. I would abolish it overnight.

2. I opposed State/religious recognition of same sex marriage as as I oppose all forms of marriage as a near useless anachronism.

3. I was filthy about China’s One Child Policy - that they relaxed it. At the very least China should have received carbon credits and acknowledged for its efforts to stem population growth.

4. Lots of progressive folk support inter country adoption. For me it is a grotesque reminder of colonialism.

 

[Gethelred]

I don't think it's excusable but I also don't think it is reflective of his genuine beliefs that he holds when he is of sound mind. Every few years he seems to quit his meds and enter a manic / psychotic episode.

Eg I have a cousin with schizophrenia who claimed to be Edgar Allan Poe reincarnated. He wrote a 200 page "book" suggesting that Jesus was a homosexual and that if enough people wrote emails to Obama asking nicely then we could denuclearise the world. Nice guy, used to live in a tent at Byron Bay.

When he receives adequate medical treatment he seems like a totally normal fella to chat to though. When he relapses into psychosis he starts yelling a lot, stalking people, and speculating about the sexual proclivities of various historical figures.

How much do we as a publick know about Kanye's mental health issues? Or - to put it another way - what are your assumptions here?

 

[FireKrakouer]

How much do we as a publick know about Kanye's mental health issues? Or - to put it another way - what are your assumptions here?

It's pretty much all assumptions tbh. I know he's been involuntarily institutionalised in the past and has gone through an absurd public spectacle of a divorce and seemed to be imploding mentally from what I saw.

It's not a hill I'm gonna die on, I know it's possible for a PoC to be a white supremacist (as weird as it seems). I believe Kanye's recent comments have largely been impacted by his mental illness but perhaps he is still a genuine nazi/bigot.

 

[Seeds]

Fun thread.

1 Abolish the Military
I spent a year in Costa Rica. After a failed military coup in the late 1940s, the new Constitution abolished the Military. Despite Central America being a bit footloose no-one has invaded them, tho the Seppos have been tempted. Savings have gone to the people and the best health and education systems in Central America.

I see the Oz military as being there for wars of aggression and not defence. Its main value is providing employment for some folk who may not otherwise get a job. I would abolish it overnight.

2. I opposed State/religious recognition of same sex marriage as as I oppose all forms of marriage as a near useless anachronism.

3. I was filthy about China’s One Child Policy - that they relaxed it. At the very least China should have received carbon credits and acknowledged for its efforts to stem population growth.

4. Lots of progressive folk support inter country adoption. For me it is a grotesque reminder of colonialism.

No one is going to start a major invasion in latin america given the military presence of the usa.

how do you think ukraine would be going right now if they abolished the military?

oh and reducing population sizes doesnt help with climate related temperature rises. In fact it probably makes it worse given the negative impacts it has for investment. Investment and deployment of clean tech is the only way to stop climate change as net emissions need to fall to zero before the temps stop rising. Reducing population by 50 percent doesnt help at all.

 

[Seeds]

I support military intervention to uphold progressive values like democracy and human rights. Does that count?

note if you think you are a progressive and hold woke views regarding race or definitions of women then you should probably be posting this in this thread. They are far right conservative views. Even most conservatives have abandoned such views.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

So, I would identify as centre-left.

I believe in a strong social security system but I do believe more should be done to cut off those who actively choose not to get a job. I am not talking about the long term unemployed who are less skilled but are trying to find a job. I am not talking about forcing people to relocate or anything like that. I am talking about people who absolutely milk the system and dodge their responsibility to conscientiously look for suitable employment.

I have seen it first hand with a family member. She works harder trying to show Centerlink she is looking for work than actually looking for work and has milked the system for years. She is not useless, she is just lazy. I do not believe we should be funding people like this.

 

[Gough]

So, I would identify as centre-left.

I believe in a strong social security system but I do believe more should be done to cut off those who actively choose not to get a job. I am not talking about the long term unemployed who are less skilled but are trying to find a job. I am not talking about forcing people to relocate or anything like that. I am talking about people who absolutely milk the system and dodge their responsibility to conscientiously look for suitable employment.

I have seen it first hand with a family member. She works harder trying to show Centerlink she is looking for work than actually looking for work and has milked the system for years. She is not useless, she is just lazy. I do not believe we should be funding people like this.

I'm far more concerned about massive subdidies for planet wrecking overseas based companies who pay little tax in return than I am the statistically almost insignificant amount of people who do this.

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

I'm far more concerned about massive subdidies for planet wrecking overseas based companies who pay little tax in return than I am the statistically almost insignificant amount of people who do this.

Yeah, I have no issues with that mate. We all have things that bug us. I suppose it annoys me because I am watching this in real time.

But your point is well made, even though it really isn't what the thread is asking.

I agree with you though.

 

[Gethelred]

So, I would identify as centre-left.

I believe in a strong social security system but I do believe more should be done to cut off those who actively choose not to get a job. I am not talking about the long term unemployed who are less skilled but are trying to find a job. I am not talking about forcing people to relocate or anything like that. I am talking about people who absolutely milk the system and dodge their responsibility to conscientiously look for suitable employment.

I have seen it first hand with a family member. She works harder trying to show Centerlink she is looking for work than actually looking for work and has milked the system for years. She is not useless, she is just lazy. I do not believe we should be funding people like this.

In any society, there sits at between 1-5% of people who cannot work. This group includes both those who physically cannot do it - for whatever reason - and those that will not, regardless of how poor or weak it makes them. Placing these people in programs like WFTD is actively worse for the companies that run those programs; they now have to actively monitor those people almost on a case by case basis and watch them every moment of their time there, to ensure they're doing something and not actively doing something to make things harder.

These people, by and large, simply want to get left alone. Most of them are tremendously unhappy, and a large percentage of them have substantial mental health conditions, most of which go untreated because when you're dirt poor getting help is butting up against a system designed to force you into work.

Now, while I understand that you know someone who is genuinely just lazy, the question cannot be 'how do we catch Cryptkeeper's family member who's just lazy'; we have a wider responsibility than that.

The question needs to be: do we as a society owe anything to those people who cannot work? Do we completely cut them off and let them rot? Do we provide for them? What do we do about the fact that the traits society values has not selected in their favour, to the point of near complete exclusion?

To what extent do the priorities of a capitalist mindset and the protestant work ethics' effects over a now much more secular society triumph over the more empathetic requirement to not see someone else - someone elses' father, mother, child - go hungry or without clothing or without shelter?

When you say 'cut them off', what do you mean?

 

[Number37]

No one is going to start a major invasion in latin america given the military presence of the usa.

Would you count the 'military presence of the USA" as a 'major invasion in Latin America'?

 

[Blue1980]

I have balanced views in some areas but I guess the Left/progressive thing I struggle with the most is identity politics / critical theory. I find it dehumanising and actually kind of in opposition to the notions of "all in it together / greater good".
I get that it's complicated, and understand the concept of structural privilege, but these days the way it's being "sold" leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I think understanding underlying structures etc and how they have favoured white people etc is fine to learn.

What I don’t like is the self loathing white people who think they should be more offended than the victims themselves and anyone who is white should feel ashamed just by existing. 2 wrongs don’t make a right.

Again that would be a very small percentage of people, and I don’t think anyone who is taken seriously is like this.

 

[Blue1980]

I think some of the problem here lies completely in the degree to which misinformation distorts things.

On one hand, you have a university level idea replete with complexity and full acknowledgement of its limitations and strengths; you then have that idea filtered from professor to student, most of which half understand the idea of socially created 'race' or 'whiteness', semiotics, identity. Then, you have that idea further diluted via the Facebook/Twitter word limit. Then, you have deliberate distortion of propagandists seeking to twist the ideas into a negative; these people absolutely need to understand the idea at least some, so as to alter how people are disposed towards it within the discourse to turn them against it.

In the end, you have an entire series of layers of distortion even before the propagandists get a hold of it for the purposes of demonisation.

Then, you've got the first impressions vs research issue: humans don't really like changing their mind, and if proven wrong go looking for reasons to ignore why or how it happened.

I think labelling the dislike of identity politics/race theories of society bad marketing is probably true, but ignores somewhat the complexity of the various affects of society's disposition towards competing ideologies.

Yes it’s got a lot of nuance and it’s a complicated issue.

Though those on the right side of politics like to claim it as “woke mind virus” etc as they take bits of it to use for their own means to distort the picture.

 

[Seeds]

Would you count the 'military presence of the USA" as a 'major invasion in Latin America'?

What land has the usa claimed as their own in latin america beyond a tiny island?

before the usa started protecting borders after world war 2 countries borders changed all the time. Like all the time. The lack of appreciation of how the usa changed the world for the better post world war 2 is astounding. Invasion used to be the norm.