Opinion Public v private school funding

[Apples]

Who knows, that was just a quote from an article in the HS.

And then there's this :

St Kevin’s College breaks ties with Edmund Rice Education Australia - CathNews

St Kevin’s College in Toorak, Melbourne, has won the right to become an independent school from December 1, breaking ties with Edmund Rice Education Australia. Source: Herald Sun.

cathnews.com

Independent my arse! They will still suck on the public teat at the expense of genuinely needy government schools.

 

[Gone Critical]

Independent my arse! They will still suck on the public teat at the expense of genuinely needy government schools.

While I dont want to create too much of an argument I do struggle a bit to understand what people, who would withdraw govt funding from private schools, see as the end game. Given in 2021 the average govt spend per student in govt schools was $16174 v independent schools $11804 what would you do? Granted the kids in independent schools have a bigger spend per student because of the fees their parents pay but how do you make up the shortfall, if you withdraw funding, when more kids would tip out of the independent system into the govt system.

If you withdraw all of the funding, $11804, almost all independent schools close and as each student goes public the tax payer will need to find another $4370 per student just to maintain public school funding at its current public level. Is that the solution you would like to see?

 

[magpies42]

While I dont want to create too much of an argument I do struggle a bit to understand what people, who would withdraw govt funding from private schools, see as the end game. Given in 2021 the average govt spend per student in govt schools was $16174 v independent schools $11804 what would you do? Granted the kids in independent schools have a bigger spend per student because of the fees their parents pay but how do you make up the shortfall, if you withdraw funding, when more kids would tip out of the independent system into the govt system.

If you withdraw all of the funding, $11804, almost all independent schools close and as each student goes public the tax payer will need to find another $4370 per student just to maintain public school funding at its current public level. Is that the solution you would like to see?

Spot on. It’s important to understand facts before pushing an argument as divisive as that.

 

[Mollythedolly]

While I dont want to create too much of an argument I do struggle a bit to understand what people, who would withdraw govt funding from private schools, see as the end game. Given in 2021 the average govt spend per student in govt schools was $16174 v independent schools $11804 what would you do? Granted the kids in independent schools have a bigger spend per student because of the fees their parents pay but how do you make up the shortfall, if you withdraw funding, when more kids would tip out of the independent system into the govt system.

If you withdraw all of the funding, $11804, almost all independent schools close and as each student goes public the tax payer will need to find another $4370 per student just to maintain public school funding at its current public level. Is that the solution you would like to see?

It's a vexed question. The State/Commonwealth spend is about 63% State Government for public schools, 8% for independent. Commonwealth about 33% public, 67% independent. State gov also puts about 30% of it's entire education budget into "all schools" activities which encompasses programs such as the $450m into independent school infrastructure announced at the last budget.

I don't have a dog in the fight, public school educated, self funded tertiary quals, no kids, but it always annoys me the Commonwealth contribute disproportionally with preference to independent schools. I think they should govern for all equally.

 

[Apples]

Educational funding in Australia is a national tragedy. If families had to pay the fees without government funding, as should be the case, then many would send their kids to local government schools instead. This would not only end the 'brain drain', but would ensure a more equitable system. It would lead to a situation similar to other nations, where public schools are not disadvantaged and are fairly funded. How is it that almost every other nation can manage this, but we can't or won't?

As a life long teacher, one who has taught in inner city schools in Melbourne and in overseas private schools, the situation in Australia fills me with shame. The current system entrenches inequality and segregation and is grossly unfair.

When it comes to school funding, the money flows to the private system at the expense of all other schools. Forget the nonsense spouted by the private lobby groups, the facts are plain to see. Almost every public school in Australia is funded below the minimum agreed school resource standard, while every private school in Australia is funded at or above this benchmark.

I wonder if we will ever wake up to the fact that we have created a segregated system, with little opportunity to break generational disadvantage.

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

Educational funding in Australia is a national tragedy. If families had to pay the fees without government funding, as should be the case, then many would send their kids to local government schools instead. This would not only end the 'brain drain', but would ensure a more equitable system. It would lead to a situation similar to other nations, where public schools are not disadvantaged and are fairly funded. How is it that almost every other nation can manage this, but we can't or won't?

As a life long teacher, one who has taught in inner city schools in Melbourne and in overseas private schools, the situation in Australia fills me with shame. The current system entrenches inequality and segregation and is grossly unfair.

When it comes to school funding, the money flows to the private system at the expense of all other schools. Forget the nonsense spouted by the private lobby groups, the facts are plain to see. Almost every public school in Australia is funded below the minimum agreed school resource standard, while every private school in Australia is funded at or above this benchmark.

I wonder if we will ever wake up to the fact that we have created a segregated system, with little opportunity to break generational disadvantage.

Agree

 

[Apples]

While I dont want to create too much of an argument I do struggle a bit to understand what people, who would withdraw govt funding from private schools, see as the end game. Given in 2021 the average govt spend per student in govt schools was $16174 v independent schools $11804 what would you do? Granted the kids in independent schools have a bigger spend per student because of the fees their parents pay but how do you make up the shortfall, if you withdraw funding, when more kids would tip out of the independent system into the govt system.

If you withdraw all of the funding, $11804, almost all independent schools close and as each student goes public the tax payer will need to find another $4370 per student just to maintain public school funding at its current public level. Is that the solution you would like to see?

That sounds pretty much verbatim what the private school lobbyists feed to the uncritical media. The 'end game' you speak of would be pretty much what we see in Finland and Sweden; most kids would go to well resourced public schools instead. I don't understand the 'fairness' of a system where, for example, taxes paid by African or Iranian families, families who have no choices, subsidise those who do. In our system, the poor subsidise the rich! I wonder how many parents sending their kids off to private schools ever think about what is happening to our once excellent state system of education.

 

[magpies42]

That sounds pretty much verbatim what the private school lobbyists feed to the uncritical media. The 'end game' you speak of would be pretty much what we see in Finland and Sweden; most kids would go to well resourced public schools instead. I don't understand the 'fairness' of a system where, for example, taxes paid by African or Iranian families, families who have no choices, subsidise those who do. In our system, the poor subsidise the rich! I wonder how many parents sending their kids off to private schools ever think about what is happening to our once excellent state system of education.

I would counter that the issue with the education system is far more simple, there is a severe lack of discipline and ambition. The curriculum is basic, we reward mediocrity and teachers are not empowered to discipline the student.

Additional funding will get you better looking buildings, infrastructure…other countries perform better with less. My kids are in public school, the standard is incredibly low and they don’t hold the students accountable. It’s a holiday.

The private school system rorts the VCE system to churn out better grades, they are better coordinated.

The OP stands, parents pay an incredibly high price to send their children to private schools…they also generally carry a higher tax burden. The inequality is there no doubt, but it’s not due to government intervention.

 

[sr36]

While I dont want to create too much of an argument I do struggle a bit to understand what people, who would withdraw govt funding from private schools, see as the end game. Given in 2021 the average govt spend per student in govt schools was $16174 v independent schools $11804 what would you do? Granted the kids in independent schools have a bigger spend per student because of the fees their parents pay but how do you make up the shortfall, if you withdraw funding, when more kids would tip out of the independent system into the govt system.

If you withdraw all of the funding, $11804, almost all independent schools close and as each student goes public the tax payer will need to find another $4370 per student just to maintain public school funding at its current public level. Is that the solution you would like to see?

It's the kind of economic rationalism that is seeing Australia fast track itself towards becoming a country that is very socially and economically divided.

 

[Apples]

I would counter that the issue with the education system is far more simple, there is a severe lack of discipline and ambition. The curriculum is basic, we reward mediocrity and teachers are not empowered to discipline the student.

Additional funding will get you better looking buildings, infrastructure…other countries perform better with less. My kids are in public school, the standard is incredibly low and they don’t hold the students accountable. It’s a holiday.

The private school system rorts the VCE system to churn out better grades, they are better coordinated.

The OP stands, parents pay an incredibly high price to send their children to private schools…they also generally carry a higher tax burden. The inequality is there no doubt, but it’s not due to government intervention.

The problems in government schools are many:
For parents, there's a lack of choice. Strict zoning applies everywhere.
Discipline can be poor.
Poor behaviour is difficult to action - the paperwork involved to expel a kid is enormous and even then, the school must find another school to take on the kid.
Teacher selection: you don't have to score very highly to get into teaching.
Perceptions: the is no career pathway for males, especially in primary schools and males don't want to work in an environment where their every move is viewed with suspicion.

And the elephant in the room; parents.
We're now into our second generation of permissive parenting. Too many kids arrive at school after years of being told they're special. They lack self-discipline, are entitled and feel everybody is there to serve them. Of course, the problem-parents exist in the private sector too, but they can be moved along, like their kids, if they are not in-tune.

But we have sidetracked the thread. This discussion should be put elsewhere.

 

[Kirby]

While I dont want to create too much of an argument I do struggle a bit to understand what people, who would withdraw govt funding from private schools, see as the end game. Given in 2021 the average govt spend per student in govt schools was $16174 v independent schools $11804 what would you do? Granted the kids in independent schools have a bigger spend per student because of the fees their parents pay but how do you make up the shortfall, if you withdraw funding, when more kids would tip out of the independent system into the govt system.

If you withdraw all of the funding, $11804, almost all independent schools close and as each student goes public the tax payer will need to find another $4370 per student just to maintain public school funding at its current public level. Is that the solution you would like to see?

Absolutely.

Private schools should be entirely funded privately. If parents can afford it then well and good.

Otherwise, it should all be government schooling. It's worth the spending and will improve the level of education across the state ultimately.

 

[magpies42]

The problems in government schools are many:
For parents, there's a lack of choice. Strict zoning applies everywhere.
Discipline can be poor.
Poor behaviour is difficult to action - the paperwork involved to expel a kid is enormous and even then, the school must find another school to take on the kid.
Teacher selection: you don't have to score very highly to get into teaching.
Perceptions: the is no career pathway for males, especially in primary schools and males don't want to work in an environment where their every move is viewed with suspicion.

And the elephant in the room; parents.
We're now into our second generation of permissive parenting. Too many kids arrive at school after years of being told they're special. They lack self-discipline, are entitled and feel everybody is there to serve them. Of course, the problem-parents exist in the private sector too, but they can be moved along, like their kids, if they are not in-tune.

But we have sidetracked the thread. This discussion should be put elsewhere.

Agreed, so funding isn’t the big issue. Potentially paying teachers more, they deserve it, might attract better talent and buy in. We are a soft society, getting softer by the minute. Just to tie it back to trade and f/a, the club discriminates against poor discipline. Pick country kids!

 

[Gone Critical]

That sounds pretty much verbatim what the private school lobbyists feed to the uncritical media. The 'end game' you speak of would be pretty much what we see in Finland and Sweden; most kids would go to well resourced public schools instead. I don't understand the 'fairness' of a system where, for example, taxes paid by African or Iranian families, families who have no choices, subsidise those who do. In our system, the poor subsidise the rich! I wonder how many parents sending their kids off to private schools ever think about what is happening to our once excellent state system of education.

Well I don't want to sound like one of them!!!!! I dont understand education well but am interested in this argument but never get what I find is a satisfactory answer. My kids did a mix of government schools and mid tier private Catholic schools and my partners 3 kids are all through East Doncaster Secondary in recent years (with the Quaynors). Was known as East Donny High back in my day. So I am not strongly in either camp.

I do understand health which has comparisons and the Scandanavians stand out there also. If only we could emulate them. But its apples and oranges as they have significant differences in money, homogenous population, compliancy and a belief in high quality social programs that we are so far from matching.

In our world I see the kids in the school, and probably what happens in their homes, not the schools themselves as the main factor determining how education goes. I may be well wide of the mark. So will those kids from disadvantaged backgrounds see the benefits from reducing private school funding and numbers? I kinda doubt it, the social inequities are far more ingrown than that. Seems to me the answer would ultimately lie with more rounded schools pulling students from a wide demographic but that is probably utopian.

Looking at East Donny High v East Doncaster Secondary v the private school my kids went to East Doncaster Secondary smashes the other 2 academically. I don't think they have had any great injection of funds since it was East Donny but the demographic of the kids has changed greatly. I think thats the biggest driver in education.

Absolutely.

Private schools should be entirely funded privately. If parents can afford it then well and good.

Otherwise, it should all be government schooling. It's worth the spending and will improve the level of education across the state ultimately.

While I can see the attraction in theory how do you do it? Isn't it about 35-40%of kids currently go to school in the private system. Under full private funding say 80% of private schools close and all those students tip into the Govt schools. A lot of parents would be able to have a good holiday or get the new car based on no more private school fees but the rest of us will get a much bigger tax bill to pay for keeping funding even at the level it currently is. Do you have a better solution?

It's the kind of economic rationalism that is seeing Australia fast track itself towards becoming a country that is very socially and economically divided.

But is largely closing down the private school system going to be a solution? Maybe but it would seem to have a lot of potential pitfalls and may just as likely sent it the other way

 

[Kirby]

Well I don't want to sound like one of them!!!!! I dont understand education well but am interested in this argument but never get what I find is a satisfactory answer. My kids did a mix of government schools and mid tier private Catholic schools and my partners 3 kids are all through East Doncaster Secondary in recent years (with the Quaynors). Was known as East Donny High back in my day. So I am not strongly in either camp.

I do understand health which has comparisons and the Scandanavians stand out there also. If only we could emulate them. But its apples and oranges as they have significant differences in money, homogenous population, compliancy and a belief in high quality social programs that we are so far from matching.

In our world I see the kids in the school, and probably what happens in their homes, not the schools themselves as the main factor determining how education goes. I may be well wide of the mark. So will those kids from disadvantaged backgrounds see the benefits from reducing private school funding and numbers? I kinda doubt it, the social inequities are far more ingrown than that. Seems to me the answer would ultimately lie with more rounded schools pulling students from a wide demographic but that is probably utopian.

Looking at East Donny High v East Doncaster Secondary v the private school my kids went to East Doncaster Secondary smashes the other 2 academically. I don't think they have had any great injection of funds since it was East Donny but the demographic of the kids has changed greatly. I think thats the biggest driver in education.


While I can see the attraction in theory how do you do it? Isn't it about 35-40%of kids currently go to school in the private system. Under full private funding say 80% of private schools close and all those students tip into the Govt schools. A lot of parents would be able to have a good holiday or get the new car based on no more private school fees but the rest of us will get a much bigger tax bill to pay for keeping funding even at the level it currently is. Do you have a better solution?


But is largely closing down the private school system going to be a solution? Maybe but it would seem to have a lot of potential pitfalls and may just as likely sent it the other way

That's a perfectly good solution. Yes we will pay more tax, or at the least more tax dollars will go towards public education.

It would have to be gradually done over time of course (decreasing funding to private schools until it hits zero).

We will have a better educated population and a more fairly educated population. Go and see how rundown the public schools generally are.

When the funds are all directed at public schools they will get better facilities, better teachers and it will be much more fair for the broader community. Teachers will be more attracted to working at them.

Btw, I was private school educated but my kids went to public school.

 

[Gone Critical]

That's a perfectly good solution. Yes we will pay more tax, or at the least more tax dollars will go towards public education.

It would have to be gradually done over time of course (decreasing funding to private schools until it hits zero).

We will have a better educated population and a more fairly educated population. Go and see how rundown the public schools generally are.

When the funds are all directed at public schools they will get better facilities, better teachers and it will be much more fair for the broader community. Teachers will be more attracted to working at them.

Btw, I was private school educated but my kids went to public school.

I like the whole idea but it does sound a bit too good to be true. You are talking about such a big cost to the Govt just to keep the Govt schools at their current level. Presumably as the private schools close the Govt has to buy the land and facilities to create the new Govt schools for a start and then find the extra money to bring the old private school kids up to the same individual funding of the current state funded kids. Thats just to maintain things as they are. Are taxpayers really going to go for that.

I really think the biggest benefit potentially would be a greater merging of different demographics of kids if that resulted.

 

[TradeDraft]

While I dont want to create too much of an argument I do struggle a bit to understand what people, who would withdraw govt funding from private schools, see as the end game. Given in 2021 the average govt spend per student in govt schools was $16174 v independent schools $11804 what would you do? Granted the kids in independent schools have a bigger spend per student because of the fees their parents pay but how do you make up the shortfall, if you withdraw funding, when more kids would tip out of the independent system into the govt system.

If you withdraw all of the funding, $11804, almost all independent schools close and as each student goes public the tax payer will need to find another $4370 per student just to maintain public school funding at its current public level. Is that the solution you would like to see?

They are Private Schools and nothing to do with the Public and Goverment Schools

 

[sideswipe]

That's a perfectly good solution. Yes we will pay more tax, or at the least more tax dollars will go towards public education.

It would have to be gradually done over time of course (decreasing funding to private schools until it hits zero).

We will have a better educated population and a more fairly educated population. Go and see how rundown the public schools generally are.

When the funds are all directed at public schools they will get better facilities, better teachers and it will be much more fair for the broader community. Teachers will be more attracted to working at them.

Btw, I was private school educated but my kids went to public school.

Private schools promote diversity. Haves and have nots. Embrace it.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[TradeDraft]

Diversity can go too far

Don't want Furries being a Distraction in Schools

 

[sr36]

Well I don't want to sound like one of them!!!!! I dont understand education well but am interested in this argument but never get what I find is a satisfactory answer. My kids did a mix of government schools and mid tier private Catholic schools and my partners 3 kids are all through East Doncaster Secondary in recent years (with the Quaynors). Was known as East Donny High back in my day. So I am not strongly in either camp.

I do understand health which has comparisons and the Scandanavians stand out there also. If only we could emulate them. But its apples and oranges as they have significant differences in money, homogenous population, compliancy and a belief in high quality social programs that we are so far from matching.

In our world I see the kids in the school, and probably what happens in their homes, not the schools themselves as the main factor determining how education goes. I may be well wide of the mark. So will those kids from disadvantaged backgrounds see the benefits from reducing private school funding and numbers? I kinda doubt it, the social inequities are far more ingrown than that. Seems to me the answer would ultimately lie with more rounded schools pulling students from a wide demographic but that is probably utopian.

Looking at East Donny High v East Doncaster Secondary v the private school my kids went to East Doncaster Secondary smashes the other 2 academically. I don't think they have had any great injection of funds since it was East Donny but the demographic of the kids has changed greatly. I think thats the biggest driver in education.


While I can see the attraction in theory how do you do it? Isn't it about 35-40%of kids currently go to school in the private system. Under full private funding say 80% of private schools close and all those students tip into the Govt schools. A lot of parents would be able to have a good holiday or get the new car based on no more private school fees but the rest of us will get a much bigger tax bill to pay for keeping funding even at the level it currently is. Do you have a better solution?


But is largely closing down the private school system going to be a solution? Maybe but it would seem to have a lot of potential pitfalls and may just as likely sent it the other way

In terms of influence, you're right that family comes before school, but in terms of teenagers the factor that trumps both is peers and friends.

Ultimately, what you're paying for with Private Schools is your kids peers, friends and future contacts. As middle class Australia walks away from government schools, we're increasingly being left with government schools where poverty with its associated issues and lower expectations of future success is the norm. And those expectations become self fulfilling.

Under the current system, the government is subsidising this. It's subsidising an entrenchment of poverty. And frankly the current system only saves about $5000 a year per child - about $6billion a year if the private school system was shut down completely - which isn't going to occur with a cessation of funding, We wouldn't be talking about a massive budgetary hit to have a more equitable society. If a third of them stay in private schools you break even. More than a third and you help the budget.

You're still going to have big differences depending on the socioeconomic area of the government schools, but less pronounced - particularly as the trend away from govt schools isn't going to abate in the current system.

We've set up a situation where we subsidise private schools and thus have a much higher and growing percentage of students at private schools than comparable countries. In most countries it's just not a middle class option. Thus government schools in other oecd countries are middle class, as they were when we were growing up in Aust - they're quickly becoming filled by poverty in Australia. We're following The States. It's time to invest in trailer parks.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

While I dont want to create too much of an argument I do struggle a bit to understand what people, who would withdraw govt funding from private schools, see as the end game. Given in 2021 the average govt spend per student in govt schools was $16174 v independent schools $11804 what would you do? Granted the kids in independent schools have a bigger spend per student because of the fees their parents pay but how do you make up the shortfall, if you withdraw funding, when more kids would tip out of the independent system into the govt system.

If you withdraw all of the funding, $11804, almost all independent schools close and as each student goes public the tax payer will need to find another $4370 per student just to maintain public school funding at its current public level. Is that the solution you would like to see?

Why do almost all independent schools close in your very slanted hypothetical? There will be parents that are capable of covering the additional cost and elitist enough to want to sent their precious darlings to non-government schools. If one in three of all currently enrolled independent students remain at an independent school then the tax burden on society in such a model reduces?

 

[sideswipe]

Why do almost all independent schools close in your very slanted hypothetical? There will be parents that are capable of covering the additional cost and elitist enough to want to sent their precious darlings to non-government schools. If one in three of all currently enrolled independent students remain at an independent school then the tax burden on society in such a model reduces?

Because any private school that lost 2/3 of their students would collapse.

Using phrases like "precious darlings" doesn't further your point. Just makes you sound sour.

 

[Apples]

It's interesting to get the kids' take on this. It came up in my classroom of grade 6 students last week. Most were going on to government schools; 'good' government schools. Currently on the list were East Doncaster SC, Box Hill High and Balwyn High.
One boy lamented that his parents moved out of the Box Hill zone and now he's stuck out in Ringwood somewhere where there are hardly any Asians! Even Aussie born Asian kids want to be in what they see as Asian secondary schools.
I should add that I work at a tutoring college. Of the more than 100 kids I teach over a weekend, 99% are of Asian background.

 

[Apples]

And further to the funding debate, this from The Age, December 15th:

"A decade on from the landmark Gonski review, more than 98 per cent of public schools are still funded below the Schooling Resource Standard it recommended, while 98 per cent of private schools are funded above it.

Government funding for private schools has grown almost twice as much as public school funding in that time."

What's not fair about this heh?

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Because any private school that lost 2/3 of their students would collapse.

Using phrases like "precious darlings" doesn't further your point. Just makes you sound sour.

Except that wouldn’t be what would happen. There’s already a sprectrum of choices at different price points; the only eventuality is that those price points would simply move. Some schools would close, sure, but the overall loss of students in the private system would not be two thirds of current enrolments.

I didn’t mean for the choice of phrase to further my point or otherwise Didn’t realise interactions had to be robotic.

 

[sideswipe]

Except that wouldn’t be what would happen. There’s already a sprectrum of choices at different price points; the only eventuality is that those price points would simply move. Some schools would close, sure, but the overall loss of students in the private system would not be two thirds of current enrolments.

I didn’t mean for the choice of phrase to further my point or otherwise Didn’t realise interactions had to be robotic.

That is exactly what you speculated when you wrote, "If one in three of all currently enrolled independent students remain..."