Injury Russell your feathers - discuss all things high performance; injury lists, Marvel surface, curse from the gods and Andrew Russell

[lily of laguna]

There are so many factors that make up an injury list.

I get it that we want to point fingers when things go wrong!

That’s why I point to the footy gods, do 3 hail marys, touch only wooden objects and wear the same undies every game day since 1982!!!!!


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[T2B_]

For some reason some think posts like this are amusing.
In my view, it’s childish and pathetic and adds nothing to a legitimate debate.
It’s actually ok to be a supporter yet also question what is happening at the club.

You must be fun at parties

 

[bigblueboy]

You must be fun at parties

Do you think posts like that after the 1000th time are still funny?

 

[slashin_velvet]

How's our record of matching other teams run at the end of games looking?

Staggers me that people still try and poke holes at the edges of a club and team that has literally picked itself off the canvas to avoid being knocked out and is landing haymakers left right and centre.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Voss said to Russell "we are going to play brutal football and I need bodies that can stand up to playing brutal football even if we lose some along the way"

We should be literally chairing Russell from the ground. Charlie Curnow. Dave Cuningham, Jack Martin, Caleb Marchbank, snd the likes are playing regular senior football and look confident that their bodies will hold up.

We look bigger and stronger than the teams we are playing and the players are confident that they are. We lose some foot soldiers. Bring the next one in.

I've not heard the slightest concern that we are near our soft cap limit. Russell is a professional. If anything this season has once again confirmed that he is one of the best in the business.

I don't think we can point to Cuningham, Marchbank or Martin as examples of Russell's success. He's been at the club for nearly 5 full seasons now, so are you suggesting it's taken him 4.5 years to get these players fit enough for AFL?

I agree the recent form obviously helps Russell's case, but I still think he's a very expensive resource and hasn't delivered value for money during his tenure.

 

[CCurnow3votes]

I don't think we can point to Cuningham, Marchbank or Martin as examples of Russell's success. He's been at the club for nearly 5 full seasons now, so are you suggesting it's taken him 4.5 years to get these players fit enough for AFL?

I agree the recent form obviously helps Russell's case, but I still think he's a very expensive resource and hasn't delivered value for money during his tenure.

I disagree absolutely.

He’s not only got them back - also managing them week to week in an explosive combative sport that is AFL.

Injuries happen to every team. Collingwood now having a dose.

If we win the next 6 - will you still be banging on?

 

[Wickzki]

The concerns are valid.

The criticisms are not.

Genuinely believe those taking shots are missing the bigger picture and overly fixated on one aspect of injury and player management. I understand it as it's natural to want someone to. Kane for things we see going wrong when we don't know the cause. It's something we learn to do from a very early age (if you have kids you'll know what I'm saying).

However, kudos to AR where it is thoroughly deserved. This is the first year since our glory years where I remember us being the hunter (in packs too) rather than the hunted and physically up to the challenge. Further, we're starting to grind teams into the ground.

Melbourne may have almost snatched the win last night but that's what having your best players with premiership experience will sometimes do. It didn't have anything to do with fitness (Docherty aside).

 

[Gethelred]

He got Charlie’s knee back from the brinks of disaster, looked like loosing an absolute gun before even entering his prime…
Plenty of points for me just for that one…
Imagine a current Carlton team without our gun forward…

Don’t even go there…

 

[Gethelred]

Let's play nicely from here, can we?

 

[BigFrizz36]

I don't think we can point to Cuningham, Marchbank or Martin as examples of Russell's success. He's been at the club for nearly 5 full seasons now, so are you suggesting it's taken him 4.5 years to get these players fit enough for AFL?

I agree the recent form obviously helps Russell's case, but I still think he's a very expensive resource and hasn't delivered value for money during his tenure.

So getting long term injured back is not a success for him but losing players short term is a failure.

Quoting old hawthorn articles that don't mention his salary as proof that we are paying him too much?

Not sure that you would qualify as an impartial juror.

 

[Doro]

I don't understand why Jack Martin

21

Jack Martin

Age

29

Ht

186cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.2

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

6.3

4star

M

4.9

5star

T

3.7

5star

G

0.9

4star

D

14.9

4star

K

7.9

3star

HB

7.0

4star

M

4.3

4star

T

3.6

4star

G

1.1

5star

D

8.2

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.0

4star

G

0.6

3star

is relying on his wife for searching out for alternative treatments. Happy she did as he's a vital cog, but not sure why the club wasn't doing the research.

 

[slashin_velvet]

So getting long term injured back is not a success for him but losing players short term is a failure.

Quoting old hawthorn articles that don't mention his salary as proof that we are paying him too much?

Not sure that you would qualify as an impartial juror.

The fact that they are "long term injured" is kinda the point. He's taken a long time to turn them around, and I don't think there's significant evidence that he's outperformed his peers in high performance during his tenure with us.

The old article is an AFL article relating to his time at the Hawks. We poached him from there getting him to break contract - please dont tell me you believe he left them for LESS money when he had a contract in place.

And I never said I'm impartial....I don't have any personal relationships with those involved but have been critical of AR for a long time because I don't see the hype. We have not had a good run with injury, nor had a good track record of running out games during his tenure. Our mental fortitude late last season was garbage, and that was a key pillar he himself quoted when he joined us. The last 8 weeks has seen some turnaround on the fitness front, but not the soft tissue injury front.

 

[slashin_velvet]

I disagree absolutely.

He’s not only got them back - also managing them week to week in an explosive combative sport that is AFL.

Injuries happen to every team. Collingwood now having a dose.

If we win the next 6 - will you still be banging on?

This is a thread about the guy....I'm not "banging on". If we win the next 6, i still will be critical of all roles at the club. I expect them to make changes to assistant coaches, and if they need to free up soft cap space, I'd suggest AR is a good place to look for potential savings.

 

[BigFrizz36]

I don't understand why Jack Martin is relying on his wife for searching out for alternative treatments. Happy she did as he's a vital cog, but not sure why the club wasn't doing the research.

I'm pretty sure that the club were heavily involved. You don't thank the injury department because it's their job. You do thank your wife because it's your marriage.

I guess that it fits the narrative for the doubting thomas^s though.

 

[BlueGum]

The fact that they are "long term injured" is kinda the point. He's taken a long time to turn them around, and I don't think there's significant evidence that he's outperformed his peers in high performance during his tenure with us.

The old article is an AFL article relating to his time at the Hawks. We poached him from there getting him to break contract - please dont tell me you believe he left them for LESS money when he had a contract in place.

And I never said I'm impartial....I don't have any personal relationships with those involved but have been critical of AR for a long time because I don't see the hype. We have not had a good run with injury, nor had a good track record of running out games during his tenure. Our mental fortitude late last season was garbage, and that was a key pillar he himself quoted when he joined us. The last 8 weeks has seen some turnaround on the fitness front, but not the soft tissue injury front.

Recall articles at the time of Russell's recruitment that talked of his need for a new challenge (Hawks were older then and topping up with established players). He sad he liked building up programs and players to withstand the rigours of AFL. Who is to say that money was his primary motivator?

Or maybe he's part of the side hustle of Carlton College of Sport. Maybe that's not part of the soft cap.

 

[Doro]

I'm pretty sure that the club were heavily involved. You don't thank the injury department because it's their job. You do thank your wife because it's your marriage.

I guess that it fits the narrative for the doubting thomas^s though.

Do you really need to carry on with the doubting Thomas narrative? Pointless.

 

[Jeremias]

I don't think we can point to Cuningham, Marchbank or Martin as examples of Russell's success. He's been at the club for nearly 5 full seasons now, so are you suggesting it's taken him 4.5 years to get these players fit enough for AFL?

I agree the recent form obviously helps Russell's case, but I still think he's a very expensive resource and hasn't delivered value for money during his tenure.

And here is the issue. A complete inability or unwillingness to be balanced on the topic.

It is absurd to criticise for injury yet refuse to acknowledge or give credit for having players out on the park.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Do you really need to carry on with the doubting Thomas narrative? Pointless.

How so? You (collectively) demand the need to be able to criticise Russell but get prickly when the criticism gets analysed. That's hardly pointless.

 

[Doro]

How so? You (collectively) demand the need to be able to criticise Russell but get prickly when the criticism gets analysed. That's hardly pointless.

I'm not part of a collective and I'm not making demands. You spend more time criticising posters than talking about the football club.

 

[slashin_velvet]

Recall articles at the time of Russell's recruitment that talked of his need for a new challenge (Hawks were older then and topping up with established players). He sad he liked building up programs and players to withstand the rigours of AFL. Who is to say that money was his primary motivator?

Or maybe he's part of the side hustle of Carlton College of Sport. Maybe that's not part of the soft cap.

Insanity that the criticism of my posts are that I don't KNOW what he's earning, so I can't imply a highly paid person breaking contract is likely to move somewhere on a higher salary....and the counter point is "Well MAYBE he took a paycut mid contract"

And if your latter point is right, then we're finding sneaky ways to pay him, and I'd still suggest were not getting value for money (and worse so, arguably risking another cap investigation/scandal).

 

[slashin_velvet]

And here is the issue. A complete inability or unwillingness to be balanced on the topic.

It is absurd to criticise for injury yet refuse to acknowledge or give credit for having players out on the park.

Either you're misreading my posts, or im not clear.

My assessment of value is not solely determined on recent successes or failures. The players who have recently come good, along with the last 8 weeks of form are certainly a positive for AR.

If we take a broader assessment on his value vs his cost over the duration of his tenure, I don't think it's as positive a story, and I think we could have had similar results with a lesser experienced and more affordable resource.

 

[Jeremias]

Either you're misreading my posts, or im not clear.

My assessment of value is not solely determined on recent successes or failures. The players who have recently come good, along with the last 8 weeks of form are certainly a positive for AR.

If we take a broader assessment on his value vs his cost over the duration of his tenure, I don't think it's as positive a story, and I think we could have had similar results with a lesser experienced and more affordable resource.

The post you responded to had nothing to do with value.

I made that comment maybe yesterday but think you’re so far off the mark on it with your response, that I can’t really be bothered arguing the point.

I’m all for discussion and no issue with people querying Russell or anyone else at the club. But you’d want to have some facts or something tangible when people come back at you with a valid rebuttal.

 

[slashin_velvet]

The post you responded to had nothing to do with value.

I made that comment maybe yesterday but think you’re so far off the mark on it with your response, that I can’t really be bothered arguing the point.

I’m all for discussion and no issue with people querying Russell or anyone else at the club. But you’d want to have some facts or something tangible when people come back at you with a valid rebuttal.

If you go back over the thread to my original post (which everything I've written has been in response to), my entire position is that we are not getting value for money - that's been my only contention in this thread. See below:

From a purely cost benefit perspective, Russell is not providing value.

The post I was responding to from BigFrizz was a response to my post where I again reiterated that my position was one of value for money, and my response to BigFrizz continued to mention why I didnt see it as value:

I don't think we can point to Cuningham, Marchbank or Martin as examples of Russell's success. He's been at the club for nearly 5 full seasons now, so are you suggesting it's taken him 4.5 years to get these players fit enough for AFL?

I agree the recent form obviously helps Russell's case, but I still think he's a very expensive resource and hasn't delivered value for money during his tenure.

My position is based on the facts that are publicly known - there are going to be things we don't know as the AFL doesn't publish salaries - this is no different to players where people speculate on how much a player's new contract is worth. When we recruited AR, he was regarded as one of the best in the business, and a large component of Hawthorns cost base. Articles at the time referred to Newbold trying to push the AFL to make an exception for employees of a certain tenure so as not to penalise clubs with long serving employees. Alternatively they may need to decide to go over the cap and pay the tax - Link: Tax no luxury for Hawks: Newbold plans his budget .

Its clear that Russell was highly regarded and highly paid. The other fact is that he broke contract with Hawthorn, and the probability that he moved for less money is certainly closer to 0% than 100%.

Based on the known situation, AR is highly paid, and relative to other clubs, has not delivered exceptional injury results or ability to run out games until the latest run of 8 matches. On this basis, he has not provided value over his 4.5 years, and I would argue, is not currently providing value as we continue to have soft tissue injuries cropping up in key players.

I believe his contract expires this year, so I would imagine if we are shuffling assistants and getting some more expensive ones, Russell may need to take a cut or may be moved on.

 

[Jeremias]

If you go back over the thread to my original post (which everything I've written has been in response to), my entire position is that we are not getting value for money - that's been my only contention in this thread. See below:


The post I was responding to from BigFrizz was a response to my post where I again reiterated that my position was one of value for money, and my response to BigFrizz continued to mention why I didnt see it as value:

Yep I already addressed that.

You can’t possibly fairly determine whether he is value for money without knowing what he’s being paid.

I’d also suggest you wouldn’t be able to tell us what his job entails, so how on earth do you think you’re in a position to determine value?

 

[slashin_velvet]

Yep I already addressed that.

You can’t possibly fairly determine whether he is value for money without knowing what he’s being paid.

I’d also suggest you wouldn’t be able to tell us what his job entails, so how on earth do you think you’re in a position to determine value?

I simply don't agree with you. We don't know specifically what players earn, but we have an appreciation for their relative value within the team and it's cap.

If your position is that we need the exact salary and benefits package to determine whether we are getting relative value, then we have a fundamental opposition that won't be resolved

 

[Stamos]

I simply don't agree with you. We don't know specifically what players earn, but we have an appreciation for their relative value within the team and it's cap.

If your position is that we need the exact salary and benefits package to determine whether we are getting relative value, then we have a fundamental opposition that won't be resolved

A player's performance is infinitely easier to judge than what goes on behind the scenes though, and much easier to compare to other players on similar contracts.

You're just taking a wild guess.