Sydney Swans Academy

[go_the_dockers]

All the claims of unfairness about the Academies is about how 'unfair' the current bidding system is. Based upon the current perceived priority access 'bargains' Sydney will gain in Heeney in 2014 and Mills in 2015. Because of their potential to be top class players. Correct???

As a long long time Sydney member, I don't believe that I or my team are more deserving. Do I hope that Heeney and Mills play for Sydney and are successful? Of course. Will they? Only time will tell.

However, as you are a Geelong supporter, you must admit that access to potentially top class players through the draft does not equate a guarantee of success or of building a successful era. Over the last 13 year (2001 to 2013 - your timeframe) Melbourne has had 27 top 30 picks (plus Jesse Hogan from the GWS mini-draft) and the Western Bulldogs have had 22. This includes a combined total of 5 priority picks.

Plenty of access to top class talent there, but you are still highlighting them as unsuccessful clubs. I'm thinking there must be more to building a successful era than access to a couple of players who have not even been drafted yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers
Justice

Having access to top 5 talent does not guarantee you success, but if you getting everything else right it can move your team from a top 6 team to a top 2 team.

Melbourne can not pick or develop talent, don't use them as an example. You guys are very selective when using which teams you use as a comparison.

Franklin and Tippett have changed the swans from a top 6 team to a flag favourites, and there is no way you could have signed both of them with out the COLA.

Collingwood got an extra top 5 pick and got Pendlebury, and with out they probably would not have won a premiership. This year as it is, Sydney get a top 5 pick for Pick 15-20, and next year they get Dunkley and Mills for their 1st and 2nd round who are potentially both top 10 picks.

 

[brad cooper]

Simple, you are worth as much as somebody would bid on you.

Sounds good doubtful anyone will bid a top 10 pick on a kid from nsw. Collingwood committed to moore, north and gold Coast don't need midfielders. Sydney will likely pick somewhere between 16 and 18, all of a sudden the gap is not that big and he's not such a steal.

 

[Justice]

Having access to top 5 talent does not guarantee you success, but if you getting everything else right it can move your team from a top 6 team to a top 2 team.

Melbourne can not pick or develop talent, don't use them as an example. You guys are very selective when using which teams you use as a comparison.

Franklin and Tippett have changed the swans from a top 6 team to a flag favourites, and there is no way you could have signed both of them with out the COLA.

Collingwood got an extra top 5 pick and got Pendlebury, and with out they probably would not have won a premiership. This year as it is, Sydney get a top 5 pick for Pick 15-20, and next year they get Dunkley and Mills for their 1st and 2nd round who are potentially both top 10 picks.

1. Two Planks raised Melbourne and the Western Bulldogs - I was responding, not being 'very selective'.

2. This thread is about the Academies. Has nothing to do with COLA. There are numerous other threads about COLA where you can 'contribute' with your astute analysis.

3. Dunkley is a potential father/son - nothing to do with the Academies. It is a completely erroneous and disingenuous to repeatedly try and link to two.

4. At this stage, Heeney and Mills are 'potential' top picks, yet to be drafted, yet to play an AFL game. They have NOTHING to do with Sydney's period of sustained performance.

Cheers
Justice

 

[go_the_dockers]

1. Two Planks raised Melbourne and the Western Bulldogs - I was responding, not being 'very selective'.

2. This thread is about the Academies. Has nothing to do with COLA. There are numerous other threads about COLA where you can 'contribute' with your astute analysis.

3. Dunkley is a potential father/son - nothing to do with the Academies. It is a completely erroneous and disingenuous to repeatedly try and link to two.

4. At this stage, Heeney and Mills are 'potential' top picks, yet to be drafted, yet to play an AFL game. They have NOTHING to do with Sydney's period of sustained performance.

Cheers
Justice

Dunkley is linked to the academies, because if you select him with our 1st pick you can not select any academy prospect with your 1st pick. This allows you select Mills with our 2nd pick.

All I was trying to show is that it only takes 1-2 extra players to turn a good team into a great team. St Kilda and Western Buldogs could have won multiple premierships if they had 1 extra A grader. St Kilda needed 1 more mid, Bulldogs 1 key forward.

Having the academy allows you study players for 6 years before you draft them, and then pick the players you want through the draft on the cheap.

The bombers got fined for giving players an extra medical test, but it is fair for Sydney to spend 6 years solid with potential draftees.

 

[replicant]

Franklin and Tippett have changed the swans from a top 6 team to a flag favourites, and there is no way you could have signed both of them with out the COLA.

2012? We won the flag.
2013? We lost in a prelim with a fairly hefty injury list. Tippett missed most of the season through injury/suspension.

Why were we only a "top 6 team" in 2014 if we didn't get Buddy and Tippett?

And it's been shown over and over we de-listed enough to afford both Buddy and Tippett. Yet you fail to acknowledge it and continue with your "COLA" campaign.

You're welcome to your unfounded opinions, but when you fail to even address the opposing facts, why would anyone take your ideas/opinion seriously?

 

[Fatcat08]

Sorry mate i thought I would just cherry pick the most recent 13 years. Do you want me to cherry pick 1954-1967.

South Melbourne went to Sydney with no money and not much VFL support. Private ownership then came and went and they were a basket case again. Then the AFL decided to back the swans to the hilt and arranged so that they could get Barassi, Lockett, Roos and Hall. The AFL know that with the swans struggling they will probably fall back to being the basket case again (exactly the same as Brisbane are now 10 years after a 3peat) so they continue to bend the rules to allow them to be strong. Why do swans fans deserve more chance of seeing a successful era than say a bulldogs or demons fan.

All we hear is how hard it is for these 4 teams to keep players from interstate. Apart from Josh Caddy who have Gold Coast lost. They have signed nearly all of there elite talent to long term deals. Apart from Adams (and they got Heath Shaw in return) who have the giants lost of their elite kids that they wanted to keep. These teams have been able to attract players from other clubs like Mumford, Shaw, Davis, Ward, Ablett, Brown, Fraser, Bock etc so this rubbish story about not being able to get players to live their is incorrect. How many players did the Brisbane Lions lose when they were a powerhouse. Shane O'Bree ?They didn't have trouble getting Caracella, Calthorpe and Pike to move up there. And Sydney, gee they have struggled to attract players to go to Sydney. Franklin, Tippett, Schwass, JPK, Mumford, McGlynn, R Shaw, Richards, Allison, Maxfield, Tom Mitchell, Jolly. When was the last swans player to walk out and go home due to home sickness ???

The problem was you decided to start right where the lions started to be successful, and ignore the many years that they weren't. That was the issue with the timing thing. GC have had Hickey leave as well but more will go over time, remember their salary cap is only coming level next year from memory. Giants have had Adams and Tyson leave so far, there will be more without a doubt in coming years. Looking at an initial period where they have salary cap concessions is taking a pretty short term view of things. All those players you stated were enticed by paying well over market rates, something which isn't sustainable in the long term. Lions lost O'Bree, Headland, Gram, Cupido as first round picks who left during that period when they were a powerhouse. Name me another club who have lost that many first round draft picks while being on top of the ladder.

Most of the players Sydney have recruited over the years have been fringe players from other teams and Tom Mitchell was drafted so not sure why you're including him in there. Yes Franklin and Tippett have been the big ones in recent times and personally I still think Sydney are going to pay a significant price for that in the near future. TBH Franklin is a bit of an anomaly with a contract of that length. Swans are making some pretty big assumptions with regards to growth of the salary cap etc, they've taken a huge risk. Looks good at the moment, but whether it is that way in 10 years time remains to be seen. They haven't had a lot of guys come out of contract and looking for more money quite yet.

Look I understand the angst at Sydney but they went way out on a limb with Franklin and offered something no other club was willing to. Long term I'm not sure whether it pays off or not.

My main point is that a lot of the arguments against are looking at what these teams have done (or are expected to do) with salary cap and list concessions, while largely ignoring what has happened in the past with sydney and brisbane and what's happening now with Brisbane when there isn't some sort of equalisation measure in place to compensate for list makeup imbalance for sides in non afl states who have to draft the majority of their list from interstate and therefore pay overs to keep them.

I'm not saying we shouldn't expect to be around the bottom of the table at periods over time, far from it, but free agency has only made things more difficult for lower teams and especially those who can't entice players home.

 

[go_the_dockers]

2012? We won the flag.
2013? We lost in a prelim with a fairly hefty injury list. Tippett missed most of the season through injury/suspension.

Why were we only a "top 6 team" in 2014 if we didn't get Buddy and Tippett?

And it's been shown over and over we de-listed enough to afford both Buddy and Tippett. Yet you fail to acknowledge it and continue with your "COLA" campaign.

You're welcome to your unfounded opinions, but when you fail to even address the opposing facts, why would anyone take your ideas/opinion seriously?

Why were we only a "top 6 team" in 2014 if we didn't get Buddy and Tippett?

Your forward line would not function as well as it is with out these players, I would have thought you would have dropped at least two more games. The port game is the obvious one where buddy kicked 5+ goals.

And it's been shown over and over we de-listed enough to afford both Buddy and Tippett. Yet you fail to acknowledge it and continue with your "COLA" campaign.

Obviously you need to delist players to fit them in your salary cap, otherwise they wouldn't fit. Having the larger salary cap has allowed you target players from opposition clubs and if you took 1 million dollars out of your salary cap you could not afford both of them. Do you believe you can afford Buddy and Tippett if you didn't have the COLA? If so what other players would you delist\trade.

PS - Sorry didn't mean to drag in the COLA debate into this thread, but I have.

 

[Toadvine]

Sounds good doubtful anyone will bid a top 10 pick on a kid from nsw. Collingwood committed to moore, north and gold Coast don't need midfielders. Sydney will likely pick somewhere between 16 and 18, all of a sudden the gap is not that big and he's not such a steal.

There will be a team with a top 10 willing to bid on him. The fact he's from NSW has nothing to do with his talent and ability.

 

[brad cooper]

Sorry mate i thought I would just cherry pick the most recent 13 years. Do you want me to cherry pick 1954-1967.

South Melbourne went to Sydney with no money and not much VFL support. Private ownership then came and went and they were a basket case again. Then the AFL decided to back the swans to the hilt and arranged so that they could get Barassi, Lockett, Roos and Hall. The AFL know that with the swans struggling they will probably fall back to being the basket case again (exactly the same as Brisbane are now 10 years after a 3peat) so they continue to bend the rules to allow them to be strong. Why do swans fans deserve more chance of seeing a successful era than say a bulldogs or demons fan.

All we hear is how hard it is for these 4 teams to keep players from interstate. Apart from Josh Caddy who have Gold Coast lost. They have signed nearly all of there elite talent to long term deals. Apart from Adams (and they got Heath Shaw in return) who have the giants lost of their elite kids that they wanted to keep. These teams have been able to attract players from other clubs like Mumford, Shaw, Davis, Ward, Ablett, Brown, Fraser, Bock etc so this rubbish story about not being able to get players to live their is incorrect. How many players did the Brisbane Lions lose when they were a powerhouse. Shane O'Bree ?They didn't have trouble getting Caracella, Calthorpe and Pike to move up there. And Sydney, gee they have struggled to attract players to go to Sydney. Franklin, Tippett, Schwass, JPK, Mumford, McGlynn, R Shaw, Richards, Allison, Maxfield, Tom Mitchell, Jolly. When was the last swans player to walk out and go home due to home sickness ???

Bulldogs lost 5 prelim finals between 97 and 10, hardly a struggling team. Melbourne played in the 2000 gf and since then have had enough first round and priority draft picks to build a decent team. Their fans do deserve success just like all teams, but you can't blame cola or a sydney academy that has so far produced one rookie listed player in 6 years. By the way Tom mitchell was drafted, schwass was a trade because Shannon grant wanted to go home, kennedy mumford mcglynn couldn't get games at their clubs, ditto Richards and jolly who both cost us a first round draft pick. Are those trades any different from Harley Ottens and Mooney?

 

[dazbroncos]

the timing is the issue. if we were running 10th it would be a non issue, and most vics wouldn't even know who Heeney is.

Its one too many times to the advantage well after COLA, Tippett, a flag, Buddy and another potential flag. Add in a preselected pick of a top 5 draft from 15-18 and its too much. Even the most ardent Swans supporter has to see how it looks from the outside.

COLA is going, not totally gone yet, the Flags are just good management and good luck (all flags are really). The Academy's are good for the game and are required to develop talent.

Simply preclude a team that finishes Top 4 in the previous year from gaining a Rd1 preselection from an Academy and the issue will go away. If you or any Academy club finish outside the Top 4 then regular preselection rules apply.

Go Catters

 

[brad cooper]

There will be a team with a top 10 willing to bid on him. The fact he's from NSW has nothing to do with his talent and ability.

We'll see but key position normally comes first followed by vic sa and wa mids.

 

[SB70]

Why were we only a "top 6 team" in 2014 if we didn't get Buddy and Tippett?

Your forward line would not function as well as it is with out these players, I would have thought you would have dropped at least two more games. The port game is the obvious one where buddy kicked 5+ goals.

And it's been shown over and over we de-listed enough to afford both Buddy and Tippett. Yet you fail to acknowledge it and continue with your "COLA" campaign.

Obviously you need to delist players to fit them in your salary cap, otherwise they wouldn't fit. Having the larger salary cap has allowed you target players from opposition clubs and if you took 1 million dollars out of your salary cap you could not afford both of them. Do you believe you can afford Buddy and Tippett if you didn't have the COLA? If so what other players would you delist\trade.

PS - Sorry didn't mean to drag in the COLA debate into this thread, but I have.

Freo could have done the same deal for Buddy and been favourites for the flag this year and next if they had chosen too.
Maybe lose a couple of fringe players (like we did with White and Everett), top up with delisted players (like Derryckx and Laidler) rather than Sylvia and Gumbleton and allocate some of the savings you'll get from McPharlin, Pav and Sandi to a back ended contract.
It wouldn't be unfair - just risky.

 

[go_the_dockers]

Freo could have done the same deal for Buddy and been favourites for the flag this year and next if they had chosen too.
Maybe lose a couple of fringe players (like we did with White and Everett), top up with delisted players (like Derryckx and Laidler) rather than Sylvia and Gumbleton and allocate some of the savings you'll get from McPharlin, Pav and Sandi to a back ended contract.
It wouldn't be unfair - just risky.

With an extra 9.8% in our salary cap we could, you are right

 

[Two Planks]

Giants have had Adams and Tyson leave so far, there will be more without a doubt in coming years.

They decided to trade Tyson to get Josh Kelly. He was contracted and didn't walk out to go home.

 

[Two Planks]

Most of the players Sydney have recruited over the years have been fringe players from other teams and Tom Mitchell was drafted so not sure why you're including him in there.

Tom Mitchell was a father son pick i believe. He had the choice of swans and gws or he could have elected to go into the draft. But no. He CHOSE to go and live in that place that nobody dares to go. SYDNEY.

 

[Two Planks]

By the way Tom mitchell was drafted, schwass was a trade because Shannon grant wanted to go home, kennedy mumford mcglynn couldn't get games at their clubs, ditto Richards and jolly who both cost us a first round draft pick. Are those trades any different from Harley Ottens and Mooney?

But stop saying you are disadvantaged because the odd kid goes home. You got Schwass and Allison for Shannon Grant. Fair deal to me. Those other trades are no different to the geelong ones and that proves that sydney have just as much chance of players moving there (not drafted) as anybody else. You lose a player and get compensated, that is the draft system.

 

[Two Planks]

Last year, Andrejs Everitt. Was offered a contract, but decided to go to Carlton for both job security and to be with both his and his wife's family.

What position did he play in the 2012 GF. Thats right he couldn't get a game unless there were injuries. Maybe he went home for more opportunities, just like JPK and McGlynn went to Sydney for more opportunities.

 

[brad cooper]

But stop saying you are disadvantaged because the odd kid goes home. You got Schwass and Allison for Shannon Grant. Fair deal to me. Those other trades are no different to the geelong ones and that proves that sydney have just as much chance of players moving there (not drafted) as anybody else. You lose a player and get compensated, that is the draft system.

Allison was a draft pick (no70 1999) not part of that trade.

Time will tell, but GWS will become a happy hunting ground for Victorian clubs in 2015 when all the guns are out of contract. Let's see what sort of compensation gws get maybe some more early draft picks that can do the same thing two years later.

 

[brad cooper]

With an extra 9.8% in our salary cap we could, you are right

Maybe instead you could have traded off some of those big men that clog up peels forward line every week.

 

[replicant]

What position did he play in the 2012 GF. Thats right he couldn't get a game unless there were injuries. Maybe he went home for more opportunities, just like JPK and McGlynn went to Sydney for more opportunities.

No one ever does anything for one reason only.

I'm sure more opportunity was one part of the equation. Going home was another, as his own quotes say.

So Vic teams generally deal with normal list issues.
Northern teams deal with normal list issues + homesickness.

Simple eh?

 

[Fatcat08]

They decided to trade Tyson to get Josh Kelly. He was contracted and didn't walk out to go home.

He went home. Now GWS were smart enough to get in early and got a bit of value but he didn't leave to go to SA or wa. It ain't a new trend

 

[Fatcat08]

Tom Mitchell was a father son pick i believe. He had the choice of swans and gws or he could have elected to go into the draft. But no. He CHOSE to go and live in that place that nobody dares to go. SYDNEY.

So what you're saying is that Mitchell chose to go the club where his father played which is in Sydney or most likely go to play for a new club in......Sydney. Wow

 

[dlanod]

Tom Mitchell was a father son pick i believe. He had the choice of swans and gws or he could have elected to go into the draft. But no. He CHOSE to go and live in that place that nobody dares to go. SYDNEY.

For the record, Mitchell didn't have a choice of the Swans, GWS, or going into the draft. He had a choice of the Swans or going into the draft, where GWS had said they would definitely take him (ala Murphy and Carlton). So either way he was going to Sydney - just which team he wanted to play for.

 

[SB70]

With an extra 9.8% in our salary cap we could, you are right

COLA has been argued enough that we both know we will not agree and as it is a fairly imprecise solution to combat an inherent disadvantage that is impossible to quantify there is no definitive answer.
I concede (not agree) that the equalisation measures Sydney have had may have overcompensated us and I am happy to see them wound back.
I just find it strange that others do not even see the possibility that the equalisation puts us on an equal footing with the top clubs and if we win it because we were better and if we lose it is because we weren't good enough. They may not agree which is fine but surely it is a chance.

The Buddy signing is a separate matter - that was a bold/risky/inspired/reckless decision to commit a large chunk of future cap space on the chase for short term success. Time will be the judge. Freo could have done it.
Ironically the reason we took the risk when others wouldn't probably says more about the challenges of the Sydney market than anything football related.

 

[Tippett2Goal]

Didnt see it in the thread

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...sier-path-for-nsw-players-20140723-zw1mu.html

But perhaps the words of someone who came from NSW and had to go through the pathway before the academy system exists, as well as know people from his home town and the difference the system has had will change some peoples minds...

wont hold my breath though., this is big footy afterall