Analysis Talia & Roberts our future back line

[lachy]

Roughy is perfectly suited to that role rather than Full-back imo. Playing in defence has been great for his development but he is not the long-term solution for us.

Generally agree Mutt. Think he can be a gorilla forward for us as he is a strong mark when his shoulders are ok.

Instead of second ruck though see him more as a swingman if a gorilla or ruckmen are getting on top down back

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Dann there are very few pure full backs. There are KPP's that are defenders, Forwards or swingmen that take the 1, 2 or 3 forward depending on the opposition structure.

Roughy cannot play on a fast leading KPP, however could pick up the resting Ruck. The thing is you need at least 4 KPP's in your team each weak to either cover or exploit the opposition. All 3 can comfortably play in a team with one more KPP and where they play is determined by whether you are stopping or exploiting the opposition.

Fair enough - "Play him at FB/FF," probably should have read, "Play him up forward/in defense." Still though, the question remains: if you were coach, handling Roughead's selection, how would you deploy him? As a swingman at AFL level? In defense at AFL level? Up forward at AFL level? Or any of those three but in the VFL?

It's a conundrum for mine. He's undoubtedly in our best 22, but I don't think his forward/ruck play is up to AFL standard just yet. He may benefit from some time honing those skills at VFL level.

 

[Dogsman16]

Fair enough - "Play him at FB/FF," probably should have read, "Play him up forward/in defense." Still though, the question remains: if you were coach, handling Roughead's selection, how would you deploy him? As a swingman at AFL level? In defense at AFL level? Up forward at AFL level? Or any of those three but in the VFL?

It's a conundrum for mine. He's undoubtedly in our best 22, but I don't think his forward/ruck play is up to AFL standard just yet. He may benefit from some time honing those skills at VFL level.

Next Season I want him to play as a 2nd ruck primarily and then forward/back depending on what we need, and the opposition's capability for a 2nd ruck/KPF. Preferably I want him to play forward more so then back, so we can select all of Roberts, Talia and Moz. For mine we really need Talia to take the more athletic Roughead/Riewoldt type, Roberts onto say Vickery/Vardy/Mcevoy and Moz on Darling/Kersten etc. But it really comes down to a big preseason of Campbell v Roughead to see who takes that 2nd ruck/forward spot.

 

[lachy]

Fair enough - "Play him at FB/FF," probably should have read, "Play him up forward/in defense." Still though, the question remains: if you were coach, handling Roughead's selection, how would you deploy him? As a swingman at AFL level? In defense at AFL level? Up forward at AFL level? Or any of those three but in the VFL?

It's a conundrum for mine. He's undoubtedly in our best 22, but I don't think his forward/ruck play is up to AFL standard just yet. He may benefit from some time honing those skills at VFL level.

I would start him deep forward then see how the game pans out.
Not many can drop back onto the big boys in the back line or be a more than handy back up ruck

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Thanks guys, clearly some really differing views. Interesting topic. I'm intrigued to see how the coaches view the three of them as right now I'm not totally sure how they see it going forward. Hopefully we get a good idea in the off-season/next year.

 

[doggies ftw]

I do see your point but if we want to be a good side we need to have key structures that aren't meddled with and are kept relatively constant. How many of the top teams cycle out their key defenders week-to-week? It doesn't happen as they're massively important key pillars that you structure the team around. In my opinion the solution you've suggested is feasible in some circumstances, but a long, long way from ideal. Seeking a key defensive trio that can handle a variety of circumstances is a much better way than cycling guys out when we can't find a matchup for them. In my opinion we can't become a top-line side without settling our key position trio at both ends.



The difference between Roughead then and Roughead in this hypothetical scenario is that he was taking the brutes early in the year, yet that may not be an option if you throw Roberts in as well. I'm not reading too much into his form, but it's moreso that I don't see the duo being flexible enough to adjust to a variety of circumstances. Regardless, we can't know for sure until we see it in action.

Yeah thats true you wouldn't want it happening too regularly. But I think there not being a match up for all 3 would be the exception not the rule, and thered be very few occasions you'd need to do it. We could also have Roberts and Talia taking the key talls, Roughy taking the 3rd/RR and also rotating through the ruck himself, and only needing one pure ruckman in the team. With us tending to go for a one genuine tall forward line, with Stringer, Bonts, Cramers etc alongside him, throwing Roughy or Roberts forward probably wouldn't put it out of whack too much.

I dunno its a good discussion but we wouldn't have the tiniest idea about how the people in charge are looking at it the constant rumours of us targeting tall backs such as Frost, Schade, Jaksch etc makes me think that they have other plans for one of these guys anyway.

 

[Dogsman16]

Actually would like to see Roughy trialed forward this week, also breaks even and follows up well at ground level, hence why I am strongly for sending him forward/2nd ruck next season and rectifiying our KPD's both through draft and trade if possible

 

[immortalmike]

The difference between Roughead then and Roughead in this hypothetical scenario is that he was taking the brutes early in the year, yet that may not be an option if you throw Roberts in as well. I'm not reading too much into his form, but it's moreso that I don't see the duo being flexible enough to adjust to a variety of circumstances. Regardless, we can't know for sure until we see it in action.

I hardly think Kennedy/Cox, Petrie and Vickery are brutes. Also I thought our help defence was much better earlier in the year. We tended to be better at forcing wide leads and not allowing space in the middle of the fifty.
I also think you're underselling the intelligence of Roberts. Much like Lake he isn't a speed merchant but is strong in the contest and reads the play excellently. He's just not fit enough yet to take advantage of these skills.

The best backline I've ever seen at our club was headed by Lake and Morris both were/are excellent players with different skillsets but one thing they had in common was that they had a team of four other guys helping them out at every opportunity. This was the reason why the slowish Lake was able to take Buddy and beat him, because the moment he was trailing him on the lead (which happened quite often) Gilbee or Hargrave would cut in front and make the contest. When was the last time you saw one of our backmen do that? Put Lake in Roughie's place and I don't think things would change that much.

If Roughead was broken down then surely Roberts would have come into the starting line up instead of him. We cannot make excuses for the fact that the past 2 months Roughy has been pretty poor, particularly on the lead and keeping up with the more agile forwards. If he does have a shoulder niggle it doesn't explain why KPF's are able to get seperation from him at will. To be honest Austin and Roughead should have either been in different positions or playing in the 2's and Talia and Roberts should have been rewarded rather than letting Moz play undersized on the likes of Franklin, Carlisle etc. Moz can't really do much more but hope he gets a chop out.

Not when Roberts struggles to run out an AFL game. The sad truth is that at this stage a 70% Roughead is still our best KPP.
His shoulders actually do explain him being beat easier on the lead though as forwards know that all they have to do is engage in a wrestle and push him off balance then lead into the remarkably open space in front of them. It happens all the time now and it didn't in the pre-season and our first two games.
Can I ask though, and let me preface this with an I love him to death, by why are we all so ready to excuse Dale Morris as "battling manfully" against bigger guys? The truth is he is getting beaten week in and week out also. He's played on Riewoldt before and beat him, he's played on Buddy before and beat him. Hell Josh Gibson plays on the same guys and beats them and he's considerably smaller than Dale. Buddy wasn't just beating Dale in the contests on Sunday, he also had him just as many times in general play and on the lead. This is a problem with our whole defensive unit. They just aren't working together.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I hardly think Kennedy/Cox, Petrie and Vickery are brutes. Also I thought our help defence was much better earlier in the year. We tended to be better at forcing wide leads and not allowing space in the middle of the fifty.
I also think you're underselling the intelligence of Roberts. Much like Lake he isn't a speed merchant but is strong in the contest and reads the play excellently. He's just not fit enough yet to take advantage of these skills.

The best backline I've ever seen at our club was headed by Lake and Morris both were/are excellent players with different skillsets but one thing they had in common was that they had a team of four other guys helping them out at every opportunity. This was the reason why the slowish Lake was able to take Buddy and beat him, because the moment he was trailing him on the lead (which happened quite often) Gilbee or Hargrave would cut in front and make the contest. When was the last time you saw one of our backmen do that? Put Lake in Roughie's place and I don't think things would change that much.

All very fair points Mike and I concede you make an excellent case. I've been pretty ruthless towards our other defenders and midfielders throughout the year as the lack of help defense is appalling and I agree it could make enough of a difference for things to look a little brighter. Time will tell.

 

[doggies ftw]

Actually would like to see Roughy trialed forward this week, also breaks even and follows up well at ground level, hence why I am strongly for sending him forward/2nd ruck next season and rectifiying our KPD's both through draft and trade if possible

I'm not sold on Roughy going forward, agree that he has the perfect attributes (mobile, great mark, good skills, good at ground level, good tackler etc) but he just hasn't looked that likely up forward yet. I agree it would be good to see him play the whole game there this week, but I feel if that was the plan we just had to have started playing him there at least 5 weeks ago. Just say we back Roughy in for a switch to FF next year, and then sure up the defence in the off season (which it sounds like were keen to do with the rumours of who we're interested in), but if it doesn't come off and we switch Roughy back again were stuck with plenty of KPDs and still no forwards.

Definitely warming to the idea of him moving forward though, just look how long it took Carlisle to make the transition, and if it ended up working out it would be pretty much perfect. A forward line with Roughy the big number 1 target, who is there for the bail out option, surrounded by Bonts, Stringer and Crameri and some smalls. That could work really well. Campbell as first ruck and when he needs a rest you just swap Campbell and Roughy, and then play to the exact same structures we were already playing to.

Pick up one of the defenders at our first pick (Lever hopefully) and then both ends of the ground are looking pretty good. If someones getting smashed down back or just the other teams on a roll send Roughy back to plug the hole, which he is ideal for.

Okay, after writing this I've talked myself into Roughy going forward just wish we sent him up there 5 weeks ago because we still have absolutely no idea if it will work or not, which is kinda a big deal!

 

[Bont2Bruce]

Best new thread for a while, like it.

 

[Dav1d]

Okay, after writing this I've talked myself into Roughy going forward just wish we sent him up there 5 weeks ago because we still have absolutely no idea if it will work or not, which is kinda a big deal!

I believe he could go forward, but if they intend to play him there
that they give him some games to find his feet, think that he could be become a capable swingman

not sure if it has been brought up, but how does everyone think Roberts and Talia would compliment Roughead as a defender?
especially if we're only playing against a two talls forward line, would love to see Morris back whooping the 3rd talls of the competitions backsides
soon

if we get a KPD in the draft or via trade or both, will be most interesting as to who plays were

 

[Dogsman16]

I'm not sold on Roughy going forward, agree that he has the perfect attributes (mobile, great mark, good skills, good at ground level, good tackler etc) but he just hasn't looked that likely up forward yet. I agree it would be good to see him play the whole game there this week, but I feel if that was the plan we just had to have started playing him there at least 5 weeks ago. Just say we back Roughy in for a switch to FF next year, and then sure up the defence in the off season (which it sounds like were keen to do with the rumours of who we're interested in), but if it doesn't come off and we switch Roughy back again were stuck with plenty of KPDs and still no forwards.

Definitely warming to the idea of him moving forward though, just look how long it took Carlisle to make the transition, and if it ended up working out it would be pretty much perfect. A forward line with Roughy the big number 1 target, who is there for the bail out option, surrounded by Bonts, Stringer and Crameri and some smalls. That could work really well. Campbell as first ruck and when he needs a rest you just swap Campbell and Roughy, and then play to the exact same structures we were already playing to.

Pick up one of the defenders at our first pick (Lever hopefully) and then both ends of the ground are looking pretty good. If someones getting smashed down back or just the other teams on a roll send Roughy back to plug the hole, which he is ideal for.

Okay, after writing this I've talked myself into Roughy going forward just wish we sent him up there 5 weeks ago because we still have absolutely no idea if it will work or not, which is kinda a big deal!

Hoping by some miracle that instead of Lever (who is my 2nd preference) that we are able to get Durdin with our first, so we could develop him at either end. Agree that Roughy should have been sent forward weeks ago and their isnt much point now.

 

[doggies ftw]

not sure if it has been brought up, but how does everyone think Roberts and Talia would compliment Roughead as a defender?
especially if we're only playing against a two talls forward line, would love to see Morris back whooping the 3rd talls of the competitions backsides
soon

if we get a KPD in the draft or via trade or both, will be most interesting as to who plays were

Thats what the last 2 pages have been about

Hoping by some miracle that instead of Lever (who is my 2nd preference) that we are able to get Durdin with our first, so we could develop him at either end. Agree that Roughy should have been sent forward weeks ago and their isnt much point now.

Yeah I like Durdin a lot too, reckon he will be there at our pick too. Still think he could be Carlisle like up forward. But I would just prefer a straight up, forward who knows he's a forward, and wants to be a forward. All the best ones have that typical forward mindset, thats what I want in whoever we get. We've already got swingmen well and truly covered with Rough, Roberts, Stringer, Bonts etc!

 

[Dogsman16]

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/to...ralian-selection/story-fndv8haf-1227037688711

This is of great concern Roughead averages the most goals conceeded out of any number 1 KPD in the game.

 

[_Mike_]

I have something to back this up mike

That's why I state it

And I know this will get the boo boys going but I'm not saying how coz then I basically give my source out and I'm not doin that

With all due respect MD, I don't take rumours as such on face value.

 

[Testekill]

Would have thought that there would be rumours flying everywhere if Talia wanted to leave.

 

[igloo dweller]

I have something to back this up mike

That's why I state it

And I know this will get the boo boys going but I'm not saying how coz then I basically give my source out and I'm not doin that

booooooooo

(can't believe that nobody else boooo'd yet - what kind of footy fans are you?)

 

[Rockford18sx2]

From what I've seen of Talia and Roberts in the VFL is that they run the back line. They lead the defensive unit, communicate and take responsibility for what happens down back. I'd say this is what Macca wants as opposed to them playing at the AFL level and being told what to do by Morris, Roughhead and Murphy. You don't learn anything if someone else does the thinking for you.

Macca clearly believes with this strategy they'd develop at a faster rate than playing AFL.

 

[doggies ftw]

From what I've seen of Talia and Roberts in the VFL is that they run the back line. They lead the defensive unit, communicate and take responsibility for what happens down back. I'd say this is what Macca wants as opposed to them playing at the AFL level and being told what to do by Morris, Roughhead and Murphy. You don't learn anything if someone else does the thinking for you.

Macca clearly believes with this strategy they'd develop at a faster rate than playing AFL.

Thats actually a pretty good point, I'm an apprentice and at work everything is so easy until the boss goes okay do that for yourself and you're like hang on a sec how do I actually do this again

 

[Rockford18sx2]

I wouldn't be surprised if Talia was getting impatient. He would want more opportunity in the AFL and I'd imagine he thinks he is ready now. Probably thinking 'I've played well enough in the 2's to warrant selection, and 'if my brother can play at the level, so can I'. From what I've heard at the beginning of the season, he was expecting to play alot more AFL games this year and be part of the best 22 week in and week out considering where we were on the ladder. I expected it, didn't happen, Macca had other plans.

 

[Mattdougie]

With all due respect MD, I don't take rumours as such on face value.

Not should you but time will tell mate

 

[Mofra]

Also I don't think Campbell or Cordy are forwards that is why combined I would not want them there in total more than 30% of any time in the first 3 quarters and unless it is working on a given day, not at all in the 4th quarter

Agree with this - especially Campbell, he appears to be a no 1 ruckman.
Another reason I'd like to see Roughy go forward at times - he's a decent contested mark, has better positioning and can hold his own in the ruck when he gives the R1 a chop-out.

 

[lachy]

Agree with this - especially Campbell, he appears to be a no 1 ruckman.
Another reason I'd like to see Roughy go forward at times - he's a decent contested mark, has better positioning and can hold his own in the ruck when he gives the R1 a chop-out.

I think too many are blinded by the last 6 to 8 weeks with Roughy.

the best way to develop a key forward if possible is down back. You learn not only leading patterns and positioning of key forwards throughout the competition. You also learn what defenders hate.

Personally, I believe he is the best contested mark in our team and as a gorilla type forward does not need to be super quick, merely mobile which for his size he definitely is.

I also believe Roberts has allot of these traits

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Perhaps we've unintentionally unravelled some of the questionable team selection policies with our talls this year.

Roughead is seen as a future key forward, with Roberts and Talia our key defenders. The coaches believe Roughead will best develop his game playing in defense and learning the skill set of a forward. Roberts and Talia develop their craft at Footscray, allowing them to build their cohesiveness as a defensive unit, while they wait for Roughead to be ready to start in the forward line at AFL level. We've carried one short in defense for much of the year to 1) teach the players to deal with a variety of circumstances, and 2) avoid separating Roberts and Talia where possible so as to ensure they learn to play together.

It certainly goes a long way to explaining some of the calls we've seen this year (but not all of them!).