Certified Legendary Thread 34 Essendon* Players suspended for doping violations - No opposition fans. Check OP for thread rules

[Blue Pulse]

That's all fair commentary IMHO, but the thing is that Essendon (the club) has been punished for exactly that already.

When it comes to the players themselves, they can't ban them for doping unless there is evidence that proves with little doubt they took banned substances. If that can't be done, there's no ethically acceptable way they can be punished for anything really (unless provisions exist in the relevant doping codes that I am not aware of).

Athletes have been banned for missing drug tests, failure to register their where abouts to ASADA and Administrative sloppiness!

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/athleti...-banned-for-drug-breaches-20140325-hvmmi.html

There are plenty of stories like this on the net, WADA and ASADA laws are a touch different to our justice system whereas you are guilty until you are proven innocent-just saying.

 

[TommyAlvinsWig]

Hang on, it was a blanket announcement without any substance, accusing Australian Sport of Match fixing and corruption, as well as the drug hysteria.

I'd say Vinnicombe getting caught, then announcing he was guilty, then lagging in the rest of his cycle crew, was as bad a day as any.

But in these days of miracle and wonder no-one has collective memory. If an auto-cue reader says 'worst ever' with a stern face, no-one questions it or bothers to go and look it up.

Liked for the Paul Simon reference, love the little fella.

 

[BlueHeeler25]

You can tell me I have no idea if I have no idea mate, no problems. This is social media.

For the record, the media is my area of expertise. So I understand how easily opinions can be confused with facts. And indeed how facts are deliberately distorted, fudged, muddied in orchestrated media and public whispering campaigns by professional spinners and believe me there has been plenty of that going on throughout this saga.

You said



This is opinion, not established fact, and an opinion debated by plenty of commentators. But it is an opinion shared by many, who have said it so many times that it gets touted as fact. In the same way that the narrative of "poor record keeping" became established as a fact in the Essendon defence, when it makes no logical sense at all.

No I wouldn't tell you you have no idea - I was spanked for being rude as a child (should have been spanked a lot more!). I get where you are coming from. How do you handle being in the media industry? I would kill myself.

All of the things I quoted were fact. How those facts could lead you to conclude anything other than the initial press conference was a political stunt is beyond me.

 

[BlueHeeler25]

I think it's obvious that when the minister for sport holds a press conference detailing the findings of the crime commissions report into doping in Australian sport that the government body for regulating drugs in sport be present. I take no exception to ASADA coming out and publicly denouncing doping as that is their function. I agree that Jason Clare was a bit over the top with his language but i don't see how you extrapolate that out to the government having their fingers in ASADAs pie.

Sorry to keep going to back to his ruling, but at this stage Middleton is the only one who has objectively looked at all the evidence and made a ruling.

Middleton found that ASADA had acted by itself. He rejected the notion that is was a joint investigation and found that even though ASADA and the AFL shared resources and delegated administrative tasks to each other both investigations were conducted separately and for different purposes.

This whole saga has been extremely difficult for almost everyone to view with out some sort of bias. You claim to have a source who works closely with the liberal party. Can't you see that their bias is towards finding a way to peg this onto Labor not saying they are completely blinded by their bias, but they would be somewhat skewed as it serves their own purpose. Just as my opinions are skewed by my hatred for Essendon.

Are you serious? You think it is ok for the head of an independent statutory body to be present at a Government press conference into a matter where the facts aren't known, there has been no formal investigation and that independent body has no idea of the actual facts? Do you get the idea of independence?

Clare was a bit over the top? The moron labelled this the blackest day in Australian sport why having heads of all our major male sporting codes there. Do you travel or do business with people overseas? All major newspapers in competitor countries carried the story casting doubt over all our international teams - swimmers, cricket, rugby, tennis etc. It was an absolute disgrace and that man should not be allowed to remain in politics. It was a mongrel act and he is a pig for doing so. As an Australian I value my reputation as part of a fair go society and a fair sporting culture - that was destroyed.

If you read my comments I did not just sight ASADA being at the press conference as evidence of government interference. It is on the record in Court that Minister Lundy's chief of staff met with senior ASADA officials telling them the Government wanted it sorted and giving them instructions. That is interference. Where does a Government Minister get the authority to direct an independent statutory body to do anything?

Did you also not read earlier where I said the person was linked to the Liberals so take it with a grain of salt? Hence acknowledging his bias. My opinion isn't based on what he is saying (which is they will get nailed), but on the evidence in the media to date.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Let's leave this thread to discuss whether Essendon are guilty of doping offenses or not, and not get caught up in political theories, unless of course you think that Essendon did nothing and were the unfortunate victims of some sort of government conspiracy. For anybody with access the SRP board is the best place for political discussion.

 

[Big Sim]

No I wouldn't tell you you have no idea - I was spanked for being rude as a child (should have been spanked a lot more!). I get where you are coming from. How do you handle being in the media industry? I would kill myself.

All of the things I quoted were fact. How those facts could lead you to conclude anything other than the initial press conference was a political stunt is beyond me.

No there was a press conference, that is fact, but the motives and machinations of those involved is conjecture, not fact. You are drawing conclusions which may well be right but may be wrong too. You are obviously a smart fellow so how you can fail to see the distinction is beyond me. But you do so let's not carry on with this.

Media profession rather than industry. it has it moments but never felt like jumping off a bridge. Has taken me to some amazing places and to meet some fantastic people. Pays well. So it could be worse.

 

[BlueHeeler25]

Let's leave this thread to discuss whether Essendon are guilty of doping offenses or not, and not get caught up in political theories, unless of course you think that Essendon did nothing and were the unfortunate victims of some sort of government conspiracy. For anybody with access the SRP board is the best place for political discussion.

Is there any doubt they are guilty of doping offences? Sorry but I have no doubt at the very least they breached basic corporate governance and workplace health & safety requirements.

Whether or not ASADA has complied with its obligations under statute (which if it hasn't basically eliminates all the evidence of bad governance etc) is the issue and I don't see how you can divorce that issue from the government interference issue. Please don't see my comments as naively saying Liberal good Labor bad - all sides of politics have a history of interfering with what should be independent bodies. Jason Clare just took it to a new level of stupidity.

Is there anyone on this Board who thinks Essendon hasn't done any wrong?

 

[BlueHeeler25]

No there was a press conference, that is fact, but the motives and machinations of those involved is conjecture, not fact. You are drawing conclusions which may well be right but may be wrong too. You are obviously a smart fellow so how you can fail to see the distinction is beyond me. But you do so let's not carry on with this.

Media profession rather than industry. it has it moments but never felt like jumping off a bridge. Has taken me to some amazing places and to meet some fantastic people. Pays well. So it could be worse.

No I do agree you are correct there is a distinction between some of the facts and some things I have said which are conclusions based on my opinion of those facts. Though I do think it is a reasonable opinion and it would be idiotic to disagree with it

Would be really interesting to here about your work. Anything that leads to travel, challenging interactions and good money is worthwhile. I am currently sitting in a suite at the Grand Hyatt - boy I love Melbourne. Now to head to the cricket or not?

 

[HARKER]

Is there anyone on this Board who thinks Essendon hasn't done any wrong?

There's no-one anywhere (James & Tania Hird excluded) who think that Essendon have done no wrong.

 

[BlueHeeler25]

There's no-one anywhere (James & Tania Hird excluded) who think that Essendon have done no wrong.

If you find someone I have a bridge to sell them....

 

[footyfan1978]

This thread is waste of energy and probably always was. Goes from too little or too much moderation and just not enough sensible thought added to be worth reading or posting much on. Anyway, thought I would have a glance out of curiosity. Don't know why I bothered thinking I would glance at a few pages a day or so back, and make a brief summary of what I thought from what is actually truly known. We do not know much guys and girls. Then some big mouths try to jump down throat and make assumptions that can not be made from the little I typed. I probably should have expected keyboard warriors are going to exist in topic like this and think because they want to post about it so much more, they must know better.

oh well. Sooner this whole saga is dealt with by AFL the sooner the endless speculation on forums and newspaper articles ends. The amount of time people want to sprout opinions when so little is actually known by so few is amazing. Maybe actually a handful of people at best will know what truly went on but there are so many other people that think they know so much it is truly bizarre. I guess it is just us human beings. Chinese whispers can lead to so much. People actually think knowing the truth when getting info 2nd hand to 5th hand happens. I'm actually not sure the full truth will ever get known. Investigations don't always get to everything. I've seen an investigation up close in one industry two years back. It was an eye opener on how strong opinions can be informed by those on outside that can know so little. It also showed me just because an investigation takes place does not mean it is straightforward. It made me super aware when all this Essendon drama started up to see how crazy and off the ropes speculation can get once an investigation starts up and needs to take time to get to a conclusion and resolution. Just hope common sense prevails when AFL got as much info and evidence that is still possible and make the right decision for our sport. Please December 22. Let's get this over with if we can.

 

[HARKER]

This thread is waste of energy and probably always was. Goes from too little or too much moderation and just not enough sensible thought added to be worth reading or posting much on. Anyway, thought I would have a glance out of curiosity. Don't know why I bothered thinking I would glance at a few pages a day or so back, and make a brief summary of what I thought from what is actually truly known. We do not know much guys and girls. Then some big mouths try to jump down throat and make assumptions that can not be made from the little I typed. I probably should have expected keyboard warriors are going to exist in topic like this and think because they want to post about it so much more, they must know better.

oh well. Sooner this whole saga is dealt with by AFL the sooner the endless speculation on forums and newspaper articles ends. The amount of time people want to sprout opinions when so little is actually known by so few is amazing. Maybe actually a handful of people at best will know what truly went on but there are so many other people that think they know so much it is truly bizarre. I guess it is just us human beings. Chinese whispers can lead to so much. People actually think knowing the truth when getting info 2nd hand to 5th hand happens. I'm actually not sure the full truth will ever get known. Investigations don't always get to everything. I've seen an investigation up close in one industry two years back. It was an eye opener on how strong opinions can be informed by those on outside that can know so little. It also showed me just because an investigation takes place does not mean it is straightforward. It made me super aware when all this Essendon drama started up to see how crazy and off the ropes speculation can get once an investigation starts up and needs to take time to get to a conclusion and resolution. Just hope common sense prevails when AFL got as much info and evidence that is still possible and make the right decision for our sport. Please December 22. Let's get this over with if we can.

TLDR............................................Just kidding. I read it.

What else can be expected from such threads other than speculation speckled with the odd fact?

The only problem I have with it is that it can be driven by our bias rather than from a point of objectivity.

 

[The Toad]

TBH, I am sooooooo bloody sick of the whole thing it's scary. The fact this has dragged on for so long is bloody ridiculous.
Just fricken end it already.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

This thread is waste of energy and probably always was. Goes from too little or too much moderation and just not enough sensible thought added to be worth reading or posting much on. Anyway, thought I would have a glance out of curiosity. Don't know why I bothered thinking I would glance at a few pages a day or so back, and make a brief summary of what I thought from what is actually truly known. We do not know much guys and girls. Then some big mouths try to jump down throat and make assumptions that can not be made from the little I typed. I probably should have expected keyboard warriors are going to exist in topic like this and think because they want to post about it so much more, they must know better.

Is that too little or too much moderation based on one person's opinion of what they would do or is there a real inconsistency in applying the board's and BigFooty's guidelines? I must say I'm not aware of this thread needing to be moderated too much and haven't seen much in the way of post reports to alert moderators to a breach of rules. I'd much rather see that than stumbling across moderator criticism in-thread.

Calling out big mouths and keyboard warriors is unlikely to help any genuine concerns you have though.

 

[footyfan1978]

What else can be expected from such threads other than speculation speckled with the odd fact?

The only problem I have with it is that it can be driven by our bias rather than from a point of objectivity.

All true.

Anyway, just watched the cricket finish which was way more interesting.
ooops.. that will probably be deleted by a moderator.....the end

 

[Blue Dangerfield]

Are you serious? You think it is ok for the head of an independent statutory body to be present at a Government press conference into a matter where the facts aren't known, there has been no formal investigation and that independent body has no idea of the actual facts? Do you get the idea of independence?

It was not a government press conference. It was a joint press conference about sports doping. All relevant bodies were present at the conference to provide comment on a very serious allegation. Stop being so vague in your description of who these bodies are. ASADA are not just an independent statutory body. They are an independent statutory body who's purpose is to govern the use of drugs in sport.

 

[BlueHeeler25]

It was not a government press conference. It was a joint press conference about sports doping. All relevant bodies were present at the conference to provide comment on a very serious allegation. Stop being so vague in your description of who these bodies are. ASADA are not just an independent statutory body. They are an independent statutory body who's purpose is to govern the use of drugs in sport.

Again incorrect. Do you work for the ALP? It was called by Lundy and that germ Jason Clare. Clare summoned the CEOs of the major male sports and also the Crime Commission and ASADA. You can try and spin it however you like - fact is it was a major over reach by a pathetic Minister. ASADA shouldn't have been a part of it.

 

[BlueHeeler25]

Blue Dangerfield - a good analogy for you is as follows:

You murder your 14 year old neighbour. The police link you to the crime. The Justice Minister or AG holds a Press Conference with the crown prosecutor and police present to set out the allegations against you, which are very broad. The Judge that will preside over your trial stands at that press conference with the AG, police and crown prosecutor. How would you feel? Would that be fair?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

If you reckon Essendon can't get a fair hearing, that is one thing. You have already conceded they have done something wrong though so where is this fairness issue.

Heading way too far down the political avenue though. SRP board awaits.

 

[Aphrodite]

This thread is waste of energy and probably always was. Goes from too little or too much moderation and just not enough sensible thought added to be worth reading or posting much on. Anyway, thought I would have a glance out of curiosity. Don't know why I bothered thinking I would glance at a few pages a day or so back, and make a brief summary of what I thought from what is actually truly known. We do not know much guys and girls. Then some big mouths try to jump down throat and make assumptions that can not be made from the little I typed. I probably should have expected keyboard warriors are going to exist in topic like this and think because they want to post about it so much more, they must know better.

oh well. Sooner this whole saga is dealt with by AFL the sooner the endless speculation on forums and newspaper articles ends. The amount of time people want to sprout opinions when so little is actually known by so few is amazing. Maybe actually a handful of people at best will know what truly went on but there are so many other people that think they know so much it is truly bizarre. I guess it is just us human beings. Chinese whispers can lead to so much. People actually think knowing the truth when getting info 2nd hand to 5th hand happens. I'm actually not sure the full truth will ever get known. Investigations don't always get to everything. I've seen an investigation up close in one industry two years back. It was an eye opener on how strong opinions can be informed by those on outside that can know so little. It also showed me just because an investigation takes place does not mean it is straightforward. It made me super aware when all this Essendon drama started up to see how crazy and off the ropes speculation can get once an investigation starts up and needs to take time to get to a conclusion and resolution. Just hope common sense prevails when AFL got as much info and evidence that is still possible and make the right decision for our sport. Please December 22. Let's get this over with if we can.

Well why even bother posting in it!

 

[Blue Dangerfield]

Again incorrect. Do you work for the ALP? It was called by Lundy and that germ Jason Clare. Clare summoned the CEOs of the major male sports and also the Crime Commission and ASADA. You can try and spin it however you like - fact is it was a major over reach by a pathetic Minister. ASADA shouldn't have been a part of it.

Could you clarify again how you have formed your opinion? Something about a source?

 

[Blues_1864]

Blue Dangerfield - a good analogy for you is as follows:

You murder your 14 year old neighbour. The police link you to the crime. The Justice Minister or AG holds a Press Conference with the crown prosecutor and police present to set out the allegations against you, which are very broad. The Judge that will preside over your trial stands at that press conference with the AG, police and crown prosecutor. How would you feel? Would that be fair?

No, that's a dreadful analogy. You think ASADA is independent of Parliament the same way the judiciary is? That's completely wrong.

I work for an independent statutory authority within the Federal Government (not ASADA, though). And that's the point: ASADA is part of the Federal Government. Its status as an independent statutory body means that it directly receives dedicated funding in the Federal Budget (i.e. its budget is not subject to appropriation by the parent parliamentary Department, which is currently the Office for Sport within the Department of Health). As a result, it has a CEO, who is responsible for using that (quarantined) budget to operate the agency (contrast this with more traditional parliamentary Departments, which involve line-management all the way up to the Dept Secretary).

And of course, of course, the CEO of ASADA is answerable to the Minister for Sport. (In a Westminster democracy, that should go without saying.) So, how could ASADA have avoided the "blackest day in sport" shenanigans, given that the parliamentary executive had expressly requested their participation? The idea that they could have refused, citing some sort of judicial-style independence, is absurd.

 

[Thrawn]

Again incorrect. Do you work for the ALP? It was called by Lundy and that germ Jason Clare. Clare summoned the CEOs of the major male sports and also the Crime Commission and ASADA. You can try and spin it however you like - fact is it was a major over reach by a pathetic Minister. ASADA shouldn't have been a part of it.

Why do I get the feeling you're a sock puppet?

 

[LanceRomance]

Blue Dangerfield - a good analogy for you is as follows:

You murder your 14 year old neighbour. The police link you to the crime. The Justice Minister or AG holds a Press Conference with the crown prosecutor and police present to set out the allegations against you, which are very broad. The Judge that will preside over your trial stands at that press conference with the AG, police and crown prosecutor. How would you feel? Would that be fair?

Did the murderer have a press conference 2 days before saying they were shocked to be sitting there and taking full responsibility?

 

[Jabba73]

Did the murderer have a press conference 2 days before saying they were shocked to be sitting there and taking full responsibility?

And have members of their family admit the murder and which weapon was used on national television?

Only to have the weapon supplier try and pretend there is confusion about the legality of the weapon?