TV/Film The Last of Us - HBO TV Show

[aussiedude]

I think most people will or did really enjoy the episode, but most of the negative stuff about this episode has been about

Spoiler

2 gay men and almost no Joel or Ellie. which is nothing new for the characters. But i think this is more important than people are thinking about in the larger picture of the series. Bill is so much like Joel, Just at different stages of growth. Both dont care much about themselves but are protectors. Bill at the start of the episode feels like what Joel would of been like with Tommy around the same time.
Its why when he thinks he will die from the gunshot, he tells Frank to call Joel because he will keep him safe since he is just like Bill.
We see Bill open up and become better for it. Joel opened up a bit with his 15 years or so knowing Tess but never as much as Bill did with Frank because of the loss he still feels for Sara. The note telling him to open up again to live and he can still be the protector and feel love.

Bills note sets the seeds for why Joel does what he does at the hospital after forming that father/daughter relationship with Ellie.

It was all about the growth of love, Joel started as someone like Bill ended, and became like the person Bill started as. Its Bill telling Joel its worth opening up and feeling the love rather than shutting down.

 

[Taylor]

Enjoyed that episode. These sorts of shows can drift into moments of extreme stress to moment of extreme stress with very little time to tell a human story of just getting through the days into tomorrow.

 

[Makeshift Park]

I haven’t cried that much during an episode of tv drama since the fourth season of the wire. What a marvellous show.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Interesting take with Bill, the metaphor would probably hit home harder if Joel seemed more jaded. Pedro doesn't seem as weathered emotionally as Joel in the game.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

What I think Neil Druckman struggles with is telling his narrative with or without gameplay in different ways.

The reason the second game ending was terrible is that the narrative diverted too much from the gameplay which was countering story elements,

Spoiler

i.e forgiveness of Abby narrative while killing 100 random people.

Where I think it's struggling in the show is in relation to Joel. Part of the narrative of game Joel was his identity as a good man was broken by the reality of what happened to him and what he was forced to do to survive. This was reinforced by the gameplay where you were constantly killing people/zombies, sometimes people begging for mercy. This Joel hasn't really had to do any of that on screen except for the Fedra cop who was gonna turn them in. So the fact Bill's note is telling him to be a good man again, doesn't really hit that hard, because this Joel already seems like a really good man.

There's little story elements in the game that re-enforce this. Before Tess dies she asks him to take Ellie and Joel screams "this was your crusade, not mine", highlighting his struggle with doing something good vs survival instinct. Kinda hinting that he's inclined to abandon Ellie without Tess's presence. This line isn't in the show. He says something about the others aren't going to take her in. Which is empathetic rationalizing and doesn't hint at abandonment. When in reality his main priority is self preservation.

Spoiler

Now the preview for next week shows: them ambushed by some people and fighting back. This episode and Bill's note would have landed much harder after that, after he's had to kill a few young people also trying to survive and his noble nature called into question

All in all it's still very good and the closer to greatness something is the more I care about the minutia.

 

[pantskyle]

The shows been brilliant so far and last nights episode was incredible, hit the feels.

 

[Dancing Potato]

As someone who has never played the game (but has had enough of the major plot points spoiled over the years it doesn't matter anyway) I think the series, and that most recent episode in particular, has been phenomenal.

My only gripe with this episode was that it felt like a bit of a waste to give us all of this incredible backstory for a character that won't be in the series any further.

Have to acknowledge the incredible acting and direction though. It was immense.

 

[theiaofseed]

What I think Neil Druckman struggles with is telling his narrative with or without gameplay in different ways.

The reason the second game ending was terrible is that the narrative diverted too much from the gameplay which was countering story elements,

Spoiler

i.e forgiveness of Abby narrative while killing 100 random people.

I never got this point people make about Part 2, the stories narrative was never about killing is "bad" it was about opening yourself to forgiveness. Killing to survive is apart of "The Last Of Us" world but seeking someone out just for revenge blinding you and destroying the love around you isn't.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

I never got this point people make about Part 2, the stories narrative was never about killing is "bad" it was about opening yourself to forgiveness. Killing to survive is apart of "The Last Of Us" world but seeking someone out just for revenge blinding you and destroying the love around you isn't.

Opening yourself up for forgiveness while being the Ted Bundy of the apocolypse is insanely ridiculous. To go all that way knowing youre going to be creating unneccessary conflict with everyone else, killing to survive, is as morally wrong if not worse than revenge. To then decide this autonomic thing Ive done 100 times today and 1000 times in my life is now wrong in this specific context, while Im going to have to do it 100 times more on my way home. * those people, but this specific one that killed multiple friends of mine and potentially could come for me again is fine.

 

[theiaofseed]

Opening yourself up for forgiveness while being the Ted Bundy of the apocolypse is insanely ridiculous. To go all that way knowing youre going to be creating unneccessary conflict with everyone else, killing to survive, is as morally wrong if not worse than revenge. To then decide this autonomic thing Ive done 100 times today and 1000 times in my life is now wrong in this specific context, while Im going to have to do it 100 times more on my way home. * those people, but this specific one that killed multiple friends of mine and potentially could come for me again is fine.

Killing Abby was the climax of the revenge, the destruction they cause along their journeys towards the climax is also part of the message, it's why they programed the AI to beg for their lives and why they screamed in agony when they discovered a dead body of a love one. None of these conflicts were overlooked.

Killing to survive is not what Ellie did in Part 2 at any stage and the game made it clear she was never in the right. To suggest the game overlooks this means you missed the entire point of the game.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Killing Abby was the climax of the revenge, the destruction they cause along their journeys towards the climax is also part of the message, it's why they programed the AI to beg for their lives and why they screamed in agony when they discovered a dead body of a love one. None of these conflicts were overlooked.

Killing to survive is not what Ellie did in Part 2 at any stage and the game made it clear she was never in the right. To suggest the game overlooks this means you missed the entire point of the game.

Did you not die during the game? Cause if you are walking and they spot you, you get killed... Of course Ellie was killing to survive.

The point that they are trying to make is incredibly obvious. They even end with crucifixion iconography if they havent beaten you over the head enough.

Ellie is more morally right to kill Abby than the vast majority of the people she killed at any point in either game. To say revenge corrodes the soul but random killing is just a part of life is incredibly stupid.

Whats Ellie going to do now, become an alturist or pacifist? Of course not, the message of the game is entirely incongruent to the game world.

 

[frodos gardener]

Yeah we don’t need to rehash debates about the narrative intent and execution of Part II.

 

[dank420_]

Ellie has not found one comic book yet. Open your ******* eyes girl.

 

[bourbons]

Very different Bill in some ways but really well done. Love how they took something that was really only hinted at in the game and built out the episode they did based on it, and for it to be that well executed and have the emotional resonance it did... superb stuff.

Druckman must be like a kid in a candy shop, imagine getting a chance to flesh out your original story in this kind of quality.

 

[bourbons]

What I think Neil Druckman struggles with is telling his narrative with or without gameplay in different ways.

The reason the second game ending was terrible is that the narrative diverted too much from the gameplay which was countering story elements,

Spoiler

i.e forgiveness of Abby narrative while killing 100 random people.

Where I think it's struggling in the show is in relation to Joel. Part of the narrative of game Joel was his identity as a good man was broken by the reality of what happened to him and what he was forced to do to survive. This was reinforced by the gameplay where you were constantly killing people/zombies, sometimes people begging for mercy. This Joel hasn't really had to do any of that on screen except for the Fedra cop who was gonna turn them in. So the fact Bill's note is telling him to be a good man again, doesn't really hit that hard, because this Joel already seems like a really good man.

There's little story elements in the game that re-enforce this. Before Tess dies she asks him to take Ellie and Joel screams "this was your crusade, not mine", highlighting his struggle with doing something good vs survival instinct. Kinda hinting that he's inclined to abandon Ellie without Tess's presence. This line isn't in the show. He says something about the others aren't going to take her in. Which is empathetic rationalizing and doesn't hint at abandonment. When in reality his main priority is self preservation.

Spoiler

Now the preview for next week shows: them ambushed by some people and fighting back. This episode and Bill's note would have landed much harder after that, after he's had to kill a few young people also trying to survive and his noble nature called into question

All in all it's still very good and the closer to greatness something is the more I care about the minutia.

Couldn't disagree more, the ending of the 2nd game was incredible. Much bigger emotional gut punch than the first for mine, as good as that was.

You kinda have to put the kill count aside from the story, its just a requirement of the medium. The 'hero' you play in every action/adventure video game ever is basically the biggest mass murderer in history lol - obviously this just can't be done effectively in a show, but its super effective (essential really) in a game of that type.

 

[bourbons]

Did you not die during the game? Cause if you are walking and they spot you, you get killed... Of course Ellie was killing to survive.

The point that they are trying to make is incredibly obvious. They even end with crucifixion iconography if they havent beaten you over the head enough.

Ellie is more morally right to kill Abby than the vast majority of the people she killed at any point in either game. To say revenge corrodes the soul but random killing is just a part of life is incredibly stupid.

Whats Ellie going to do now, become an alturist or pacifist? Of course not, the message of the game is entirely incongruent to the game world.

But she's not in that position or those locations in the first place without the all-consuming need for revenge driving her there. Not exactly the same as just going about your business or trying to get from A to B and having to do it.

Thats part of why the ending hit so hard for me. Due to injuries sustained in her quest for revenge, she can't even play guitar any more - a tangible thing that Joel gave her and that she was connected to him by, even after he's not around. All gone coz she couldn't let it go of her need for revenge.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

But she's not in that position or those locations in the first place without the all-consuming need for revenge driving her there. Not exactly the same as just going about your business or trying to get from A to B and having to do it.

Thats part of why the ending hit so hard for me. Due to injuries sustained in her quest for revenge, she can't even play guitar any more - a tangible thing that Joel gave her and that she was connected to him by, even after he's not around. All gone coz she couldn't let it go of her need for revenge.

Doesnt really matter what your motive is. If youre on the way to a robbery, youre still morally sound to defend yourself if someone attacks you. They dont know your intention.

 

[bourbons]

Doesnt really matter what your motive is. If youre on the way to a robbery, youre still morally sound to defend yourself if someone attacks you. They dont know your intention.

Hmm, perhaps. But in Ellie's case she knew what she was getting herself into ie. she would reasonably expect that she'd have to kill quite a few people in the course of taking down Abby. If you're just on your way to rob a bank you wouldn't reasonably expect any trouble until you get there.

She even has a line about it before she leaves from memory - "I'm going to kill every last of them" or something similar?

 

[aussiedude]

So many people seemed to miss the clear survivors guilt, PTSD and other stuff that were causing Ellie to not think rationally.

It wasnt about forgiving

Spoiler

Abby, it was about forgiving herself for not forgiving Joel sooner and the lost time because of the issues between Joel and Ellie. they clearly had just started to reconnect the night before Joel is murdered, and the loss of the movie night they were going to have that day

 

[Dez!]

I really hate that we didn't get Bill/Ellie/Joel interactions but the episode was excellent.

 

[mickelboy182]

This show is so good. Vastly superior to the game.

 

[TennisPlayerAndy]

Not an enormous amount of action, but a sound episode.

 

[Makeshift Park]

It wasn’t a flat out masterpiece like last week, but it was still very good, and you could tell it was the episode of character development they needed to pave the groundwork of Joel and Ellie’s relationship for the rest of the season.

 

[Knighta21]

Will the next episode be out early for us on binge due to the super bowl? Or do we still have to wait till Monday?

 

[bourbons]

Will the next episode be out early for us on binge due to the super bowl? Or do we still have to wait till Monday?

Out this Saturday for us I believe.