In the self interested world of the early 80's yes it could have easily happened, but the way in which the VFL was set up probably saved it from itself (if you're a fan of the way it turned out which you seem to be).
The WAFL, SANFL and VFL clubs in the National competion
- Thread starter The_Reaper
- Start date
- Tagged users None
In the self interested world of the early 80's yes it could have easily happened, but the way in which the VFL was set up probably saved it from itself (if you're a fan of the way it turned out which you seem to be).
telsor
Hall of Famer
So the SANFL & WAFL would have let 2 club go (each) out of self interest?
Tell me, when Port wanted to leave the SANFL to join the VFL, how did that go?
telsor
Hall of Famer
Not so much as you seem to believe.
I feel that this setup was always, by far the most likely result.
That any clubs being forced out should only be after they're a fair and reasonable opportunity. (giving a club a s**t fiture and ground deal, then dumping them for not being competitive off field isn't fair and reasonable).
I think that if you're going to kill clubs for lacking enough market share to compete, then there is no point in a tassie club which wont ever get sufficient market share to compete.
I think that if you're going to include clubs for sentimental reasons (e.g. Tas), then you should keep clubs for sentimental reasons
I'm talking about the individual clubs, especially the bigger Victorian ones (and the bigger WA/SA ones). The structure of the then VFL/SANFL/WAFL with everyone being an equal partner meant that breakaways were nigh on impossible.
telsor
Hall of Famer
So around a dozen clubs were just going to up and leave....Including 8 or 9 Vic clubs who were going to leave, probably meaning they'd take the VFL with them (9 could overule the commision, perhaps kick out 3 clubs --probably requiring considerable compensation-- and take assets like Waverley and ground deals with MCG with them)...
So an 8 or 9 club VFL + 4 clubs who were probably willing to just join the VFL as it was anyway.
Wouldn't happen. Trimming the VFL maybe (although I actually doubt they can kick clubs out), but why take clubs like Port and Norwood, with ~40% of the SA market, and the rest hating them and unlikely to move over anytime soon, when they could have the SANFL & public onside and play Adelaide nd the 'Torrens Thunder' and have 80-90% support? (and it's worse in WA where there wasn't a 'Port' sized dominant club)
People might have moved over, in time (or the 'old' comp could have won the fight for hearts and minds), but the way finances were in football in the 80s, long term planning/hoping was never likely.
- Moderator
- #406
Importantly while the VFL commission was independent in theory, it wasnt really until 1993 that it was fully implemented, until then the league still answered to the VFL Board of Directors - club representatives. It would have required a split in the VFL to get this scenario to happen.
telsor
Hall of Famer
I was thinking more that a 2/3 (3/4? never can remember) vote of clubs could overrule the commision, even now. Might be wrong, but I thought that's how it worked.
- Moderator
- #408
Thats under the Independent Commission as it stands now, not how it was before 1993 though, and thus one of things that led us to where we are now
sturtman
Debutant
Sturt ruck-man Rick Davies was inducted into the AFL hall of fame last year and only played one year at Hawthorn during the waning years of his career. Mind you he made a few cracks in his acceptance speech at the club about the Vics having no clue about his exploits in SA.
The Vics wanted an equalization (player draft) scheme. The extensive travel required by numerous teams from WA and SA would have broken the back of any combined league being formed. Bad enough traveling 4 times a round let alone multiples of that.
The way things stand now the bigger clubs can subsidize the weaker ones and the established interstate clubs can absorb the expense reasonably comfortably....except Port, but that's a whole other story. GC and GWS are still in their infancy and building support.The current format is the only realistic way of building a national comp going forward and I acknowledge that it has been a lot more painful for Victorian club supporters than for us here in SA. It would, for the sake of strengthening the competition, be better if some of the Vic clubs merged along the Woodville-West Torren's model. That new club has been an amazing success in the SANFL building from neither club being a real force to a perennial flag contender. But less Vic clubs and no doubt other merged clubs from SA and WA could compete successfully at AFL level means more travel for the existing and new clubs while increasing financial stress, so I can understand the AFL not pushing that barrow past the point of inducement.
The AFL is joining the SANFL this year with the Crows and the Power, and with that Port has finally fused into a single entity, so basically the SANFL comprises of 8 SANFL and 2 AFL sides from 2014 onward. This model has been adopted from the VFL.
Football Park alias AMMI stadium is now a memory and the Adelaide oval redevelopment is a multipurpose venue hoping to bring the costs of football down as well as bringing some very necessary funding down to the local level. The SANFL is and remains SA's premier suburban competition and with acceptance of the AFL existence relinquishes the development and spectacle of the great players as the domain of the AFL, but hopes to get something back from those players at the end of their careers in the form of promotion, coaching and administration.
Football has been great in the past and it will be great on the national stage. Don't forget we have the Foxtel Cup which is a good avenue to get exposure for the local leagues as well as an incentive to perform. This year you will see Norwood for the first time, and possibly clashes such as the Crows and Geelong down the track.....so there is so much to look forward to.
The Vics wanted an equalization (player draft) scheme. The extensive travel required by numerous teams from WA and SA would have broken the back of any combined league being formed. Bad enough traveling 4 times a round let alone multiples of that.
The way things stand now the bigger clubs can subsidize the weaker ones and the established interstate clubs can absorb the expense reasonably comfortably....except Port, but that's a whole other story. GC and GWS are still in their infancy and building support.The current format is the only realistic way of building a national comp going forward and I acknowledge that it has been a lot more painful for Victorian club supporters than for us here in SA. It would, for the sake of strengthening the competition, be better if some of the Vic clubs merged along the Woodville-West Torren's model. That new club has been an amazing success in the SANFL building from neither club being a real force to a perennial flag contender. But less Vic clubs and no doubt other merged clubs from SA and WA could compete successfully at AFL level means more travel for the existing and new clubs while increasing financial stress, so I can understand the AFL not pushing that barrow past the point of inducement.
The AFL is joining the SANFL this year with the Crows and the Power, and with that Port has finally fused into a single entity, so basically the SANFL comprises of 8 SANFL and 2 AFL sides from 2014 onward. This model has been adopted from the VFL.
Football Park alias AMMI stadium is now a memory and the Adelaide oval redevelopment is a multipurpose venue hoping to bring the costs of football down as well as bringing some very necessary funding down to the local level. The SANFL is and remains SA's premier suburban competition and with acceptance of the AFL existence relinquishes the development and spectacle of the great players as the domain of the AFL, but hopes to get something back from those players at the end of their careers in the form of promotion, coaching and administration.
Football has been great in the past and it will be great on the national stage. Don't forget we have the Foxtel Cup which is a good avenue to get exposure for the local leagues as well as an incentive to perform. This year you will see Norwood for the first time, and possibly clashes such as the Crows and Geelong down the track.....so there is so much to look forward to.
Well the point of this thread is S,W & Vfl clubs in the National competition. Discussion of how this might have happened, which clubs, what the balance would best be, is all part of it.
Some have said the current AFL just somehow happened. I said I think the VFL wanted to keep its own clubs together & worked towards that. Like the S & W leagues, the administrators worked through self interest, not, IMO, with the the best interests of Australian Rules Football in the forefront of all this.
Consequently we have an unbalanced league which has to spend so much of its energy protecting the weaker clubs. Those clubs have generally been weak for decades in the old VFL.
I argue that IF somehow we could have had good will & negotiation, we could have a stronger & better balanced league. Expansion then may well have been easier, especially into the northern states.
The initial balance should be done with each club putting in a business plan. In the late 1990's I think a balance then may well have been 3,3,8. As a starting point. Who knows maybe South & Fitzroy, & even North Melbourne may well have decided to move interstate. In that case 3 VFL clubs may have become 2 city teams & thus still continued in the national competition.
Its all possible & is just a point of footy discussion.
mianfei
Club Legend
The road lobby, as I have said, comes in because its almost absolute power over transport planning (please recall and remember that the Lonie Report was written by a former General Motors executive and the head of the Country Roads Board, which says more than anything about how transport policy has been decided in Australia than anything else ever could) has meant that highly populated low-density suburbs built since the 1960s have never been possessed with public transport capable of efficiently moving large numbers of people to matches. The cost of parking and extreme congestion made Waverley a very difficult venue, and excluded large numbers of people from travelling at all to inner-city grounds.
As I’ve said, many clubs in the VFL/AFL have relied on League handouts for the better part of eighty years: it was clear clubs like North Melbourne and St. Kilda could not compete economically in 1935, and it’s not easy to see how a club like St. Kilda then or now could have acquired the big-money backing required to be competitive (how much it has ever actually tried I have no clue, and of course without League aid it would theoretically at least have more incentive to do something about this).
The problem, as Stefan Szymanski has shown, is that attendances and TV viewership are likely to decline if the loss of these less-supported clubs leads to the more-supported clubs winning less often. In fact, Carlton, with its powerful business and later Menzies-based political backing, was one crucial driving force to expand the VFL in the 1920s. It is unclear whether this support, even if it does raise attendances and television viewership, actually helps the League financially.
Last edited:
Carlton, with its powerful Menzies-based backing, was one crucial driving force to expand the VFL in the 1920s.
Menzies influence in the 20s, nah !! ( Road lobby, fair go ! )
Entered Vic Parliament in 1928, went Federal in 1934 as MHR for Kooyong. PM in 1939.
One thing is right though, Bob was a genuine Bluebagger !
If the SANFL wanted to actually maintain some sort of relevance, then maybe this was the way to go. If as you think that others wouldn't move across to Port or Norwood, then they would stay supporting their SANFL teams and the SANFL would remain a stronger 8 team comp with more interest than it has now.
Albert Ross
Premiership Player
Had the cost of parking been too high and Waverley been a difficult venue to get to then ipso facto there would not have been extreme congestion.
telsor
Hall of Famer
With a lack of other transport options, any game that a lot of people wanted to go to (and the VFL tended to put bigger games there) meant a lot of cars going there. Only parking was at the ground, so from the gates back (often for several KM), you had gridlock.
Albert Ross
Premiership Player
Yes. But the point being that gridlock is a byproduct of paying customers. The post I replied to suggests that people couldn't get to or from the ground because of the lack of options. Really it is one or the other. Either no one could get to the ground and therefore there is no congestion - or plenty of people could actually get there hence the congestion.
The PT/gridlock stuff is a bit overstated anyway. The 20-30 minutes to get out of the carpark and into clear traffic was a pain. But you will struggle to get out of the MCG and onto a train much quicker. You almost always spend 15 minutes on that platform waiting for a train you can actually get on.
telsor
Hall of Famer
It discouraged people going to the ground, and therefore prevented crowds being as big as they could have been.
20-30 mins? I take it you parked near the gates and left early.
sturtman
Debutant
The biggest problem is that all of the 3 major football states, WA, SA and Vic have entirely different 2nd tier football structures. Not since the rail gauge disaster of the early colonial days has such a miss-mash undermined the progression of an entity.
I think the best way forward is for all the state leagues to hammer out a common structure that all are happy with, and can feed the AFL with the large player base that it now requires. This won't be easy, but unfortunately it is essential.
Vic teams will need to merge....there is no way around it....the Power? touch and go, they hold their own license as of this year.....they could end up crash and burning if they can't turn things around. At the moment things are looking up, but one wonders if things don't cut their way whether they will go backwards faster than their fleeting reemergence.
I suppose they can/could ultimately relinquish the AFL and return to the SANFL leaving the Crows as the sole SA AFL entity. I doubt that the SANFL will attempt to field a replacement team, and possibly may even expel the Crows from the SANFL who would then need to find another 2nd tier comp.
By selling the two AFL licenses off to the respective clubs, it does look to me like that SANFL is done with AFL football and will concentrate on its own turf.
It will be interesting to see if the SANFL will use the extra funding to again attempt to put a higher value on its player base, as there have been long rumblings from SANFL clubs of unsatisfactory financial compensation for its best players.
I think the best way forward is for all the state leagues to hammer out a common structure that all are happy with, and can feed the AFL with the large player base that it now requires. This won't be easy, but unfortunately it is essential.
Vic teams will need to merge....there is no way around it....the Power? touch and go, they hold their own license as of this year.....they could end up crash and burning if they can't turn things around. At the moment things are looking up, but one wonders if things don't cut their way whether they will go backwards faster than their fleeting reemergence.
I suppose they can/could ultimately relinquish the AFL and return to the SANFL leaving the Crows as the sole SA AFL entity. I doubt that the SANFL will attempt to field a replacement team, and possibly may even expel the Crows from the SANFL who would then need to find another 2nd tier comp.
By selling the two AFL licenses off to the respective clubs, it does look to me like that SANFL is done with AFL football and will concentrate on its own turf.
It will be interesting to see if the SANFL will use the extra funding to again attempt to put a higher value on its player base, as there have been long rumblings from SANFL clubs of unsatisfactory financial compensation for its best players.
With the WA & SA AFL teams having aligned WAFL & SANFL teams (not strictly the same model is my understanding), there are a couple of interesting articles on where these teams are at, and it appears to underline the differences between the comp run by the WAFC & the SANFL:
Adelaide Crows reserves debacle in dire need of repair
Adelaide’s flimsy “reserves” model is not working - and it will never succeed to the two-prong agenda set at West Lakes. And the SANFL league directors who hemmed the Crows - in particular Adelaide football operations chief Phil Harper - into a corner to accept their terms for entering the state league should stand before a mirror and ask if they have served SA football best or their self interests.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport...e-need-of-repair/story-fnia3nqh-1226889369219
versus
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/wafl/a/22739815/lions-roar-to-extend-unbeaten-run/
East Perth boasted 13 West Coast players but it was the two at either end of the ground – ruckman forward Scott Lycett and remade defender Jeremy McGovern who kept their team in the contest in the first half then inspired the push for victory after the long break.
Also of interest in the WAFL game, Good Friday & the best crowd of the season of 3440 underlining people dont go to 2nd tier footy.
In the VFL, its more of the annual changes in the alignment moving to all AFL clubs running their own reserves team, subject of course to AFL funding soon to be replaced by the clubs paying via the equalisation mechanise.
Adelaide Crows reserves debacle in dire need of repair
Adelaide’s flimsy “reserves” model is not working - and it will never succeed to the two-prong agenda set at West Lakes. And the SANFL league directors who hemmed the Crows - in particular Adelaide football operations chief Phil Harper - into a corner to accept their terms for entering the state league should stand before a mirror and ask if they have served SA football best or their self interests.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport...e-need-of-repair/story-fnia3nqh-1226889369219
versus
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/wafl/a/22739815/lions-roar-to-extend-unbeaten-run/
East Perth boasted 13 West Coast players but it was the two at either end of the ground – ruckman forward Scott Lycett and remade defender Jeremy McGovern who kept their team in the contest in the first half then inspired the push for victory after the long break.
Also of interest in the WAFL game, Good Friday & the best crowd of the season of 3440 underlining people dont go to 2nd tier footy.
In the VFL, its more of the annual changes in the alignment moving to all AFL clubs running their own reserves team, subject of course to AFL funding soon to be replaced by the clubs paying via the equalisation mechanise.
Last edited:
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll
