The war we had to have but for what?

[blackcat]

^ why Cheney and Rumsfeld are wrong on their 1% Doctrine hypothesis.

They can never know the counterfactual.

The 1% Doctrine has created a knew patronage of jihadis.

just mebbe, the clusterfark had rhyme to its reason. Superpowers need enemies.

 

[madmug]

It was true at the time of the post, before that ass Obama withdrew the troops (prematurely) leading to the rise of this ISIS. Their 15 mins of fame is almost over now though, the US military and special forces will wipe them out.

Obama 'got out' to save US lives. The mess in Iraq would never have happened except for the idiot son of George Bush. They should have either NOT gone in, or at least done it properly by engaging with the Iraq army, most of whom were probably glad to see the end of Hussein anyway. If they had kept the borders intact & reorganised the Iraq army as it was (cut off its head & wiped its arse so to speak), then they would have had a better situation than the complete Cluster FK they have ended up with. Nice one Dubya, you idiot.
Dont blame Obama. Thats just a cheap shot.

 

[Fire]

Pretty much all you can do. Ask yourself - should the US take out ISIS or let them continue to engage in genocide? Should the US take out a terrorist threat in the country its being formulated, or let it happen on home soil?

Yes they should.

None of that has anything to do with whether or not Iraq, and the world, is better off now than before the invasion, as you claim.

Are you going back on your position or just deflecting?

 

[blackcat]

Pretty much all you can do. Ask yourself - should the US take out ISIS or let them continue to engage in genocide? Should the US take out a terrorist threat in the country its being formulated, or let it happen on home soil?

they cant cross the atlantic. there is no way they country hop over asia to Australia. calm down, calm keep, on carry

 

[Fire]

just mebbe, the clusterfark had rhyme to its reason. Superpowers need enemies.

I agree. I think its pretty apparent that the west wants to keep the whole region unstable enough so that the people can't become empowered.

In fact I think that was the aim ever since they first drew the lines in the sand, inventing countries with no regard to the different factions and cultures within them. Or perhaps with complete regard to them.

 

[blackcat]

Obama 'got out' to save US lives. The mess in Iraq would never have happened except for the idiot son of George Bush. They should have either NOT gone in, or at least done it properly by engaging with the Iraq army, most of whom were probably glad to see the end of Hussein anyway. If they had kept the borders intact & reorganised the Iraq army as it was (cut off its head & wiped its arse so to speak), then they would have had a better situation than the complete Cluster FK they have ended up with. Nice one Dubya, you idiot.
Dont blame Obama. Thats just a cheap shot.

i reckon Obama got out to save vote at the last election, and then at the mid-term House of Reps election.

i think the regular infantry who are from low sociodemographic extraction are expendable. Expendable just like Iraqis, Iranians, Palestinians, Israelis.

Obama does not care about fatalities. If fatalities bought Obama a legacy, he would happily sell his regular troops

 

[GuruJane]

Bush,Howard,Blair always preached there was weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, well now they have them in a couple of hundred thousand blood thirsty savages running amok through the country, great war we had chaps straight in with bugles blaring all for the welfare of the Iraqi people.

Mission accomplished my arse.

Setting aside argument about the original invasion and removal of the Saddam/Baath, what we are seeing with Isis today is what would have happened if Bush had cut and run in 2006 instead of doubling down on the surge. By end of 2007 Americans had them defeated,m routed.

Their resurgence is direct result result of Obama and a Democratic Admin coming into power in utter denial about the threat, power and potency of islamic fascism and disengaging entirely from the country.

And if you think this is bad, just wait til you see the Taliban doing the same thing in Afghanistan - again as direct result of Obama and Dem Admin's desire to cut and run.

 

[blackcat]

Setting aside argument about the original invasion and removal of the Saddam/Baath, what we are seeing with Isis today is what would have happened if Bush had cut and run in 2006 instead of doubling down on the surge. By end of 2007 Americans had them defeated,m routed.

Their resurgence is direct result result of Obama and a Democratic Admin coming into power in utter denial about the threat, power and potency of islamic fascism and disengaging entirely from the country.

And if you think this is bad, just wait til you see the Taliban doing the same thing in Afghanistan - again as direct result of Obama and Dem Admin's desire to cut and run.

Guru you know well that the "surge" was BS Petraeus for domestic political consumption. It did nothing but bribe slash pacify sunni insurgents and Col Jim Steele training shia death squads and agent provocateur plural

its farcin El Salvador iteration deux jane. Get with it Guru. its just sophistry, and you know it. I am disappoint in tarzan

as inimitable medusala would say, unfettered misology.

 

[blackcat]

"cut and run" when we adopt the talking points and cant from Burson Marsteller we are truly farked

Contra Mundum GJ has truly jumped the shark and is over on the dark side. such doleful, such sad

 

[noddy]

Setting aside argument about the original invasion and removal of the Saddam/Baath, what we are seeing with Isis today is what would have happened if Bush had cut and run in 2006 instead of doubling down on the surge. By end of 2007 Americans had them defeated,m routed.

Their resurgence is direct result result of Obama and a Democratic Admin coming into power in utter denial about the threat, power and potency of islamic fascism and disengaging entirely from the country.

And if you think this is bad, just wait til you see the Taliban doing the same thing in Afghanistan - again as direct result of Obama and Dem Admin's desire to cut and run.

What we are seeing today in Iraq is the end product of the failed Bush junior campaign to plan for the aftermath of his guts & glory gung ho invasion of Iraq, there was always going to be bloodshed once the Shiites gained power & Isis or whatever they call themselves are now the tool that the Sunni extremest will use for revenge at least until all the main stream tribes of Iraq can forge some sort of a unity ticket, the removal of Maliki might be a start.

 

[noddy]

"cut and run" when we adopt the talking points and cant from Burson Marsteller we are truly farked

Contra Mundum GJ has truly jumped the shark and is over on the dark side. such doleful, such sad

Cut and run, right out of the George S Patton hand book.

 

[blackcat]

yeah. Jane is just mirroring central Asia and their metaphorical hot flushes.

dont worry, how long do they say the flot hushes last in males' pause

 

[Contra Mundum]

"cut and run" when we adopt the talking points and cant from Burson Marsteller we are truly farked

Contra Mundum GJ has truly jumped the shark and is over on the dark side. such doleful, such sad

Who? I don't have to suffer a brain anuerism at the moronic Hithchen'sesque unthinking apologist positions she takes now I am blissfully ignorant of her posts

 

[blackcat]

Who? I don't have to suffer a brain anuerism at the moronic Hithchen'sesque unthinking apologist positions she takes now I am blissfully ignorant of her posts

shes the devils advocate. <think> credlin doppelganger, p'raps extra dollop

 

[GuruJane]

In January, when ISIS overran Fallujah Obama was asked at a press conference about a renewed threat from Al Qaeda.

He described ISIS, direct quote, as a junior varsity team putting on Lakers uniforms.
Only a president and Admin in utter denial would not have known, or disregarded, the fact that Al Qaeda in Iraq was the foreunner of the Islamic State of Iraq which in turn was the forerunner of ISIS which is now the Islamic Caliphate.

Whatever their sins Bush and Blair would never have denied the threat, power and potency of the Sunni Islamic fascists.

To repeat, you will see it all again when the Taliban overrun Afghanistan, which they are in the process of setting up for right now and which will happen if the US pulls out like it did in Iraq.

 

[madmug]

Setting aside argument about the original invasion and removal of the Saddam/Baath, what we are seeing with Isis today is what would have happened if Bush had cut and run in 2006 instead of doubling down on the surge. By end of 2007 Americans had them defeated,m routed.

Their resurgence is direct result result of Obama and a Democratic Admin coming into power in utter denial about the threat, power and potency of islamic fascism and disengaging entirely from the country.

And if you think this is bad, just wait til you see the Taliban doing the same thing in Afghanistan - again as direct result of Obama and Dem Admin's desire to cut and run.

Yes lets ignore the facts of the reason for all this bloody mess being caused in the first place. GdubyaB

Resurgence, indicates the job of 'de- Ba'athification' was a Furq up in the first place.

We'll keep your prognostications in mind, you're sure to get something right, eventually.

 

[GuruJane]

Am sure a lot of posters, if not most of them, have their tongues hanging out to see the helicopters fleeing from the green zone as the caliphate starts the beheading of all apostates in Baghdad.

Sooner than you think. The army of Alqaeda in Iraq/Islamic state of iraq/Isis/Isil/Caliphate is already embedded in the southern suburbs of Baghdad as it was in 2006.

When the caliphate is ready to fire, it will be discovered that in fact the city is cut off on all sides. This is basically why Mosul fell so quickly.

How do I know this? The same way I knew it in 2006 - read Long War Journal.

 

[noddy]

Are you suggesting that the Alliance is once again formed and the combined armed forces put in motion for the betterment of the Iraqi people?

 

[Gough]

C'mon Jane, you're so keen on people having solutions to things that they speak out against; what would you do?

 

[Contra Mundum]

C'mon Jane, you're so keen on people having solutions to things that they speak out against; what would you do?

Invade invade invade invade invade etc etc etc

 

[Xsess]

Obama's withdrawl was a disaster. In lieu of recent events, how is this even up for debate?

 

[Gough]

Obama's withdrawl was a disaster. In lieu of recent events, how is this even up for debate?

Because we shouldn't have been in there in the first place.

 

[Xsess]

Because we shouldn't have been in there in the first place.

We were though.

 

[GuruJane]

Anyone wanting to salivate over the looming rout of the Americans in the Green Zone might like to read the LWJ entry for June 14 - nearly two months ago. Keep in mind how close Isis got to Erbil last week before President Obama acted.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2014/06/analysis_a_protracte.php

My own view is that the 300 special forces Obama sent to Iraq after fall of Mosul as advisors need to be put into combat with the Peshmerge and ISF with full on campaign backup - cruise missiles etc - run by CIA and similar to what Bush did in liberating Afghanistan.

That may avoid the need for ground troops. But Obama will have to mean it, as Bush did, or else no chance it will work. And there will have to be a fully committed Iraqi government.
Trouble is, I can't tell how treacherous the Sunni politicians are and how much they are beholden to Baath.

 

[blackcat]

Am sure a lot of posters, if not most of them, have their tongues hanging out to see the helicopters fleeing from the green zone as the caliphate starts the beheading of all apostates in Baghdad.

Sooner than you think. The army of Alqaeda in Iraq/Islamic state of iraq/Isis/Isil/Caliphate is already embedded in the southern suburbs of Baghdad as it was in 2006.

When the caliphate is ready to fire, it will be discovered that in fact the city is cut off on all sides. This is basically why Mosul fell so quickly.

How do I know this? The same way I knew it in 2006 - read Long War Journal.

bill oreilly got an opening for you GJ