Mega Thread Trade and List Management discussion

[Toastman]

Nah sorry Libba had good hands and was my favourite player growing up. But even he would admit he didn't have close to the creativity and decision making of even his peers such as Choco Royal or even Jose Romero let alone Tom's Westian hands. Libba made his career off heart, being first to the ball and being ferocious when he was second, all other aspects of his game were neat but not quite elite especially his kicking which was a massive weakness. Tom on the other hand has hands/brain akin to Scott West and a left boot that is almost elite, if he can acquire the discipline of his father he'll be the best player in the league.

I never mentioned creativity or decision making in relation to Libba Snr, only skills.
Regarding him making his career off heart that is only the second half of his career, the first half was made from being more skilful than the guys he was up against.
So many people only remember the second half of his career and forget how great he was in the first half. Seriously, you don't win a Brownlow for tagging.

 

[bontshow]

A lot of negative reports on Jong's kicking at training. He needs to at least play to his limitations or he won't make it, we can't have a weak link in the chain turning the ball over

 

[immortalmike]

I never mentioned creativity or decision making in relation to Libba Snr, only skills.
Regarding him making his career off heart that is only the second half of his career, the first half was made from being more skilful than the guys he was up against.
So many people only remember the second half of his career and forget how great he was in the first half. Seriously, you don't win a Brownlow for tagging.

Creativity and decision making are an integral part of skill. The argument was about how good Tom's (as well as Bonti's and Cripps') hands are, it would be a little short sighted to only talk about the act of grasping and handballing the footy. I'm not forgetting anything Libba was a high production, clearance winning ball magnet early in his career and he won a Brownlow for being consistent at that. He was not blessed with great skill but made up for it by being smart and disciplined. The fact that he had to become a tagger when he lost a yard is testament to that, you don't lose skill with age.

 

[Toastman]

Creativity and decision making are an integral part of skill. The argument was about how good Tom's (as well as Bonti's and Cripps') hands are, it would be a little short sighted to only talk about the act of grasping and handballing the footy. I'm not forgetting anything Libba was a high production, clearance winning ball magnet early in his career and he won a Brownlow for being consistent at that. He was not blessed with great skill but made up for it by being smart and disciplined. The fact that he had to become a tagger when he lost a yard is testament to that, you don't lose skill with age.

Guess I'll have to re-watch some of those old games where a midget (not sure of the legal definition but he must be close if even Caleb Daniel has 2 inches on him) "not blessed with great skill" was given AFL games.
Whether you lose skill with age isn't a debate I'm interested in but to use skills you need the time, freedom or space and if you lose a yard then you act with far more pressure and as a result you will make more errors. Not inherently a loss of skill (although I don't think he was as skilful at the end) as much as an increase in pressure would be my argument for the way he played later in his career.

 

[immortalmike]

Guess I'll have to re-watch some of those old games where a midget (not sure of the legal definition but he must be close if even Caleb Daniel has 2 inches on him) "not blessed with great skill" was given AFL games.
Whether you lose skill with age isn't a debate I'm interested in but to use skills you need the time, freedom or space and if you lose a yard then you act with far more pressure and as a result you will make more errors. Not inherently a loss of skill (although I don't think he was as skilful at the end) as much as an increase in pressure would be my argument for the way he played later in his career.

We're comparing him to those with elite skill. He was pretty good but not elite. I'm not sure you're getting that.

 

[Toastman]

We're comparing him to those with elite skill. He was pretty good but not elite. I'm not sure you're getting that.

I get it, I just disagree with your argument that he didn't have elite skills. Pretty good doesn't cut it for someone without the physical requirements for a standard AFL player. He was either Elite or we should have gotten an AFL sized player with pretty good skills to replace him.

 

[immortalmike]

I get it, I just disagree with your argument that he didn't have elite skills. Pretty good doesn't cut it for someone without the physical requirements for a standard AFL player. He was either Elite or we should have gotten an AFL sized player with pretty good skills to replace him.

Fair enough. Both he and I would disagree with you though.

 

[Toastman]

Fair enough. Both he and I would disagree with you though.

I'm glad you're here to speak on his behalf.

 

[immortalmike]

I'm glad you're here to speak on his behalf.

Direct quote from his book which I just reread. I invite you to do the same rather than devolve to snark.

 

[Toastman]

Direct quote from his book which I just reread. I invite you to do the same rather than devolve to snark.

Which is the direct quote? haven't seen anything in your posts which looks like a direct quote from a book.
My main issue with your argument is that it's the same as people use in those "worst ever brownlow medallist" threads and it's just as ridiculous here as it is there.
Even if Libba is modest enough to deny his skill that doesn't prove anything. The real proof was in the viewing of his career.

 

[King Harold]

Sing it brother

MD , you have found a soul mate ?

 

[darthbards]

A lot of negative reports on Jong's kicking at training. He needs to at least play to his limitations or he won't make it, we can't have a weak link in the chain turning the ball over

Thats extremely interesting,I've heard some reports he was looking good. I heard a report in a match sim he looked good and was offering something different.

 

[bontshow]

Thats extremely interesting,I've heard some reports he was looking good. I heard a report in a match sim he looked good and was offering something different.

He definitely offers something different. He's big, fast and physical

 

[Mattdougie]

Thats extremely interesting,I've heard some reports he was looking good. I heard a report in a match sim he looked good and was offering something different.

I've been to several sessions and what stands out with him is his speed but also his bad handling and kicking is poor for an AFL standard player. He drops and holds the ball on the wrong angle which effects his kicking drastically under pressure and at speed.

Not sure that can be fixed is I'm sure the coaches have tried and been unable to so far

 

[immortalmike]

Which is the direct quote? haven't seen anything in your posts which looks like a direct quote from a book.
My main issue with your argument is that it's the same as people use in those "worst ever brownlow medallist" threads and it's just as ridiculous here as it is there.
Even if Libba is modest enough to deny his skill that doesn't prove anything. The real proof was in the viewing of his career.

The not blessed with great skill part, was while not a direct quote (poor choice of words on my part sorry) a decent paraphrasing. He well and truly understood his value as a player and that was as a guy who could read the ball in contests and get first hands on it. Contested footy was king in his era and he was amongst the elite of the elite at it.

I would argue to be the worst ever brownlow medallist you'd have to be a lucky to okay player who had a good year (Woewodin). Libba was not this he was elite in several aspects of football (tackling, clearances, hardness, fitness, determination) but he wasn't at others. Much like Goodes was very skillful but not the hardest man in the league or Priddis who is limited in most aspects but is high production and tough as nails.

I watched his career my whole life and I held him in the highest esteem during it. But it would almost be disrespectful to pretend he was something he wasn't.

 

[Mattdougie]

MD , you have found a soul mate ?

Possible found the only other person(other than your God self) with a brain here

 

[darthbards]

He definitely offers something different. He's big, fast and physical

And

I've been to several sessions and what stands out with him is his speed but also his bad handling and kicking is poor for an AFL standard player. He drops and holds the ball on the wrong angle which effects his kicking drastically under pressure and at speed.

Not sure that can be fixed is I'm sure the coaches have tried and been unable to so far

Are you watching fairly though,they seemed to fix Wallis's kicking enough

 

[bontshow]

Are you watching fairly though,they seemed to fix Wallis's kicking enough

I'm in Cairns so it's not through my own eyes, but multiple training reports on multiple sites from multiple sessions have said the same thing

 

[Yojimbo]

Anyone that expects us to get a premiership with a player contributing as little as Jong did, is going to be disappointed. He had a lot of opportunities and didn't produce at even a backup level.
If we as a club want to win the lot, then either Jong needs to get at least 35% better or his replacement needs to produce at that higher level. None of this, he is new to the game stuff. He needs to get better.

Lin Jong received 2 brownlow votes last year to be tied with Tory Dickson
and Lachlan Hunter, now we all know that the umpires are the ultimate
judges of truth, justice and the American way when it comes to the AFL.
There are a lot of players who did not poll a vote does that mean they
are worse than Lin Jong and thus never likely to hold the cup aloft.

Defending Jack Watts and Lin Jong on the one day who would have thought.

 

[Mattdougie]

And

Are you watching fairly though,they seemed to fix Wallis's kicking enough

Yes I am and Wallis issue is more with the drop he had which is now better but he isn't fast like Jong so the amount of room from hand to foot isn't effected as much as a speedier player.

Watch Jong(and he isn't alone in this) when he kicks. His drop is sometimes very high and he flat drops the ball which leaves less room for good contact. This is very common in players that take the game up later but also very hard to fix

 

[darthbards]

Yes I am and Wallis issue is more with the drop he had which is now better but he isn't fast like Jong so the amount of room from hand to foot isn't effected as much as a speedier player.

Watch Jong(and he isn't alone in this) when he kicks. His drop is sometimes very high and he flat drops the ball which leaves less room for good contact. This is very common in players that take the game up later but also very hard to fix

Well I'll watch and I know you can't be convinced which is fine.
For me,I'm right behind Jongy,his rapid rise is sensational and I'm going to cheer and wish him all the best and hope some of that positive energy can help. All players have a weakness but some watches think there oh so clever pointing out how someone can't do this or can't do that. Bev seems to like him and i think Jong still has loads more improvement. Can he become elite? Will take time and a lot of work but I'm going to go with yes,maybe. Can he make our best 22 yes,our best 10 yes.

 

[Deadly Darcy]

Yes I am and Wallis issue is more with the drop he had which is now better but he isn't fast like Jong so the amount of room from hand to foot isn't effected as much as a speedier player.

Watch Jong(and he isn't alone in this) when he kicks. His drop is sometimes very high and he flat drops the ball which leaves less room for good contact. This is very common in players that take the game up later but also very hard to fix

Aren't you the guy who thought Liam jones was going to have a good career if not for poor coaching? Speaks to credibility when making your player assessments. FWIW I tend to agree with you on Hrovat; too small without anything elite to make it. Jong I sit on the other side of the fence. I just think you and I and everyone else will get many wrong as well as right so opinions are fine but definitive judgements are challengable..

 

[Mattdougie]

Aren't you the guy who thought Liam jones was going to have a good career if not for poor coaching? Speaks to credibility when making your player assessments. FWIW I tend to agree with you on Hrovat; too small without anything elite to make it. Jong I sit on the other side of the fence. I just think you and I and everyone else will get many wrong as well as right so opinions are fine but definitive judgements are challengable..

I think Liam Jones was horribly coached(but that is all Macca was capable of doing) and continued to be last year.

Admittedly he was very poor but he is a second or third forward at best and needs the ball delivered out in front.

He hasn't played in a team that can do that for years and the last year he did he went very well for us with Bazza helping him.

im very interested to see how he goes this year and if he actually gets a game in a system that suits him. But I'm leaning towards him now being a bust.

Hahahaha testekill your beyond a joke now. Any comment that is made that doesn't agree with me you like my work here is done

 

[Deadly Darcy]

I think Liam Jones was horribly coached(but that is all Macca was capable of doing) and continued to be last year.

Admittedly he was very poor but he is a second or third forward at best and needs the ball delivered out in front.

He hasn't played in a team that can do that for years and the last year he did he went very well for us with Bazza helping him.

im very interested to see how he goes this year and if he actually gets a game in a system that suits him. But I'm leaning towards him now being a bust.

Hahahaha testekill your beyond a joke now. Any comment that is made that doesn't agree with me you like my work here is done

You have still provided Liam with generous professional latitude due to what appears to be a personal relationship that you don't extend to other players. Where Jong (2012 rookie draft) and Hrovat (2012 draft) get totally and continuously written off in your commentary, Liam was taken 4 years earlier (2008) yet still gets "interested to see how he goes". Talls take time and all that but it remains an inconsistent assessment for a poster who posts definitive positions on players that aren't clear A or B graders. Just post that you acknowledge he is as at least as s**t a player as the others you denigrate and I'll shut up

 

[BRWB]

Aren't you the guy who thought Liam jones was going to have a good career if not for poor coaching? Speaks to credibility when making your player assessments. FWIW I tend to agree with you on Hrovat; too small without anything elite to make it. Jong I sit on the other side of the fence. I just think you and I and everyone else will get many wrong as well as right so opinions are fine but definitive judgements are challengable..

IMO Jones and Jong both have fatal flaws as footballers that are hard to see ever being rectified.

Judging the flight of the ball is crucial as a KPF. L Jizz just couldn't do it. Never seen someone run under the ball so much.

While Jongs s**t skills are massively concerning. It's his lack of composure and vision that make him unlikely to succeed as a mid IMO. The idiotic 1m bullet handball to a teammate is a prime example.

And while we are on MDs hobby horses. As a wee tiny man Hrovat doesn't seem elite in any particular essential trait and Id imagine that is why the club was happy to trade him last year. Just don't get the excitement that he has generated with some here.

Dickson am happy to admit I was wrong. One of the few smaller players to hit his straps while older. Love his kicking. Still don't like his mid work and IMO he must be played deep fwd. A true opportunist. Good on him. Hope he can stay fit and does consistently good things for longer than the one season he has so far.

No one posting here is infallible I've seen some shocking calls on players from everyone who posts here Including me. But I tell you one thing. I listen and rate MD's more highly than most. He gets it right more than most and I enjoy his opinion (albeit his means of expression can be somewhat pathological) far more than a number of the fanboy posters who seem to gravitate here, and add little IMO.

*edit IIRC MD has made a call on Roughead I think as well. Interesting to see how that plays out.