Ukraine on verge of civil war?

[The Coup]

Well its like this Russia vs NATO thing. Ten or maybe even 5 years ago I would have seen that through the sphere of good/bad or right/wrong. I don't know why that changed, but I had to go to uni to learn that the world doesnt work like that, even though I was reading a lot of information and was mature age and had plenty of work experience etc. So its one of those cases of an Arts degree having significant non-monetary value in any case.

But what I'm realising in the way I view these issues, is that while I've abandoned any hope of 'right vs wrong' or 'good vs bad', I DO still find myself "choosing sides" at times and I couldnt work out why. I thought about it for a bit and I've realised its about local self determination.

So like, I know Iran is a shitty government with great people. I disagree with Irans government in almost every way, but I find myself wanting them to assert themselves regionally cause I know it will hamper IS and AQ and also because it messes up America's plans. And I feel guilty for cheering, effectively, for a team in world politics who is also one of the leading beheaders and torturers.

But then I realised, that self determination thing is huge. I don't want Russia dictating what happens in the pacific, but I'm ok with them having a significant say in Ukraine. I don't want America telling us how to deal with China, but I'm ok with them helping us deal with Canada. Do you get me? There are towns in Europe where if you walk 25 minutes, people will call the same dish of food a totally different name. They've maintained that localism forever, and they'lll never lose it because they're focused on what is immediately around them. I think in the west our government and media pretends like we're all meant to think globally all the time, and that s**t is confusing and amoral (as we've been saying, there are no good guys in that environment). It leads us into war and we get exposed by even more horrible s**t and before you know it we think its all normal. But if we all thought and acted more locally, all this geopolitics stuff just wouldn't matter at all.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

...There are towns in Europe where if you walk 25 minutes, people will call the same dish of food a totally different name. They've maintained that localism forever, and they'lll never lose it because they're focused on what is immediately around them. I think in the west our government and media pretends like we're all meant to think globally all the time, and that s**t is confusing and amoral (as we've been saying, there are no good guys in that environment). It leads us into war and we get exposed by even more horrible s**t and before you know it we think its all normal. But if we all thought and acted more locally, all this geopolitics stuff just wouldn't matter at all.

True. There's always been a saying amongst the various action/protest groups around the place 'Think global, act local' and that's key. Everything important starts within your own locality. If enough people worried about the betterment of life for all simply within in their own localities, the world itself would change.

Mindsets would change.

 

[corbomite]

Yeh GeelongSicko (feeling sick today, no doubt), it's good you concede the dubious authenticity of your picture.
So why do it, honey? Might as well show one of a cocker spaniel doing the Rubik's cube.

The mention of Katyn was not only a response to the Geneva Conv'n reference, but also a timely reminder of how Russians regale in blaming others for their atrocities. They have priors.
Here's another: the Chechen War in the 90s started with a Russian air raid over villages. Always with a scapegoat at the ready, they blamed Azerbaijan - and the Azerbaijanis were like wtf.
Collateral damage and international condemnation? Pfft, for Yelstin, there was nothing that couldn't be cured with a bottle of Stoli and a jig.

Only a couple of many examples, yet an indicator of the Russian psyche and standard modus operandus.
Now with Ukraine, it's the same old same old. Everything was hunky dory, no 'rebels,' no 'separatists,' but let's start a war and see who comes. This is all instigated by the megalomaniacal thug of the highest order, Putin. His interests are not the Russian people's welfare - for him, it's personal - and the best place for this diminutive, chinless career criminal is a padded cell.

If he is such a cleanskin, as purported by his fanboiz here, and just a victim of the dreaded West, why engage a plethora of lawyers and PR consultants from NY City, no less? Putin's main go-to PR company is Ketchum, based there; he's paid them well in excess of 50 million bucks, to date, and everyone else answers to them.
Doesn't this strike anyone else as being idealogically odd ... a hate-filled, eastern autocrat employing the epitome of western decadence to do his bidding?
Feeding the hand that 'bites' him, how quaint.

Anyway, Ketchum must doing a great, if not bordering on traitorous, job. You are aware that much of the stuff you see on the net is of Ketchum/Kremlin origin, despite the euphemistic site names? Fake reports, fake reporters, fake eye witness accounts, fake pictures etc. This era is an invader's dream; never before could so many falsitudes be disseminated with so much alacrity.

I really don't get all this Putin love and can only put it down to one or more of 3 things:
a. You're on the payroll.
b. You are stupid - in which case, it's not your fault .. but really, say nothing. It's better.
c. You are angry hotheads who are translating your disdain for Western politicians /policies into an illogical approval for Putin - a by default support, which is the most stupid thing of all.

All the OT extraneous bleating. Not necessarily a US fan personally, pretty apolitical and just humanist, but ...
I've never seen millions of people trying to get into Russia, but everyone seems to want to get to the US - er, are they lemmings?
And you lot kvetching about Australia, what's your problem? Internet too slow? Can't find your dealer?

No system is perfect, but you need to count yourselves lucky that you live in a country where you can bang on about anything without hearing a sinister knock on the door. Biting the hand that feeds you?
You Vlad groupies should really migrate to his shangri la. I believe Kim Philby had a great time there.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

A question, corbomite - do you believe the Maidanites and those behind them are completely blameless in all this? Angels? Are you comfortable with the role of groups like the Pravyy Sektor in all this?

You say Russia has priors but believe me, Washington has provoked many, many shitfights, coups and outright invasions on other nations, fabricating evidence as they see fit and murdering their way onwards and upwards. Governmental departments such as USAID and the National Endowment for Democracy are all about regime change in a 'soft power' kind of way and I see a U.S hand moving the Maidanite marionettes to further serve U.S interests while causing a trade rift with Europe that only seems to be growing.

As US assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs 'Tricky Vicki' Nuland said so eloquently at the time, "F*ck the E.U". They too are a trading competitor for the U.S, one it has searched for years on how to blunt without actively stepping on the toes of those that believe the U.S is their 'friend'.

And you're NOT seeing much Putin love - especially not from me. But you will see me call out the Maidanites as being the wrong party in all of this. They did not need to alienate Eastern Ukraine. Ukraine could have maintained friendly ties with all parties and nations - instead it tried to gag half a country.

If Poroshenko and pals aren't not interested in reconciliation and forming an all-inclusive Ukraine then I hope they get thrown out of Eastern Ukraine forever.

 

[The Coup]

so can we agree that corbomite is a racist? I agree that.

Yes, kiddo. Russia are bad. Jesus christ what is this forum, day care? Of course Russia is s**t, have you not been paying attention to like, ever? They're just marginally less violent than America. That's all.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

I'm not quite sure that corbomite's said anything overtly racist yet. He just doesn't like/trust Russia and Vladimir Putin in particular. Agree with everything else you said, though

 

[Zidane98]

The US is not behind the ukranian revolution. There has been a desire to escape the clutches of Russia for quite some time there. If anything Ukraine wants to follow Poland ' s example and join the EU eventually. I'm sure they are still interested in maintain relations with Russia if Putin does the right thing. If Putin continues with his current rhetoric he could damage Rusdian - Ukranian relations to a point where they cannot be repaired.

 

[The Coup]

WorldCup you seem like an honest enough bloke, you just have to realise that whilst yes, there are plenty of Ukrainians who would prefer to side with Europe/NATO there are just as many if not more (based on the last election, a majority) who wish to preserve/enhance the relationship with Russia, and that's where the conflict is starting from.

It is not a case of literally zero or even a minority of Ukrainians liking Russia and Russia just sending in their own soldiers and hiding amongst civilians. It just isn't the case and it seems like that's what you're suggesting.

 

[Slax]

I think modern under-educated people (myself included) gravitate towards the more extreme things in history rather than the logical or moderate.

We've been Hollywooded.

It's like when you hear about right wing politics you never hear about Edmund Burke, you hear about Adolf Hitler.

When you hear about left wing politics you don't hear about Jose Rizal, you hear about Pol Pot.

Neither are accurate representations of their movement/ideology, but they were extreme so we focus on it.

If I knew why I'd be a lot smarter.

I think it has to do with the whole concept of the 10 second attention span.

Because there is now so many other alternative forms of entertainment all of which are driven by money, news is just one of them. Therefore they need to hook you in with something within 10 seconds or the viewer will hit the remote control and switch station costing money. Therefore they need to have flashy news stories that pull at the heart strings, basically sensationalism. Mix in violence, job losses, illegal migrants with the odd good news story and some things that they realise do need to be reported (major political announcements) and you have the tv news, current affairs programs are just an extended version.

 

[The Coup]

Yeah but I don't watch tv or read a lot of news programs. I still gravitate towards the more extreme stuff when reading, I think I'm just conditioned to kind of revere violence and butchery from being Hollywooded and Video Gamed.

 

[Zidane98]

WorldCup you seem like an honest enough bloke, you just have to realise that whilst yes, there are plenty of Ukrainians who would prefer to side with Europe/NATO there are just as many if not more (based on the last election, a majority) who wish to preserve/enhance the relationship with Russia, and that's where the conflict is starting from.

It is not a case of literally zero or even a minority of Ukrainians liking Russia and Russia just sending in their own soldiers and hiding amongst civilians. It just isn't the case and it seems like that's what you're suggesting.

I think the average Ukranian has had enough of Russian control. Perhaps their integration into Europe may not be a success and they will then decide to reintegrate with Russia. Unfortunately Russia don't want to give Ukraine the chance to go out on their own.

 

[The Coup]

You might be right on them being the majority, you might not. Neither of us really know, but the fact is there are definitely legitimate Pro Russian supporters in Ukraine, not all the rebels are from Russia.

 

[Zidane98]

They can still be pro russian without resorting to a violent armed intervention sponsored by russia.

The problem I have is Russia does not want to let Ukraine pursue political goals.

I'm sure the day Australia becomes a republic we won't see the poms trying to hold on and than backing armed insurgents . That's exactly what Russia is doing and it is indefensible.

 

[The Coup]

Australia does exactly this and worse in multiple countries, and we're a middle power. Russia is just doing exactly what America would do, but being substantially more restrained.

Can you imagine America's response if Mexico declared itself pro-Russian and overthrew the president? Oh wait, that pretty much did happen already with Cuba and America nearly nuked them.

I'm particuarly uncomfortable about any fight that involves both of America and Russia, cause its the only immediate scenario in the world that could theoretically lead to pretty much instant destruction of the human race. Well, that and the Hadron Collider thingo.

 

[awaremind]

When a nation has a secure national identity and the political system is not under threat it does not need to be heavy handed, but when its leaders know that they are fighting for their survival they are always more inclined to use violence. Thus the more destabilising influences on a nation and its structure of control the more violence is inflicted on the citizens. Thankfully our society in Australia is pretty solid, otherwise we'd be repressed too. Our media is what keeps us in line, along with our general affluence. Hungry people are angry people. Well fed people watching "The Batchelor" on a couch are satisfied and unmotivated to start protesting the actions of our leaders.

 

[awaremind]

They can still be pro russian without resorting to a violent armed intervention sponsored by russia.

The problem I have is Russia does not want to let Ukraine pursue political goals.

I'm sure the day Australia becomes a republic we won't see the poms trying to hold on and than backing armed insurgents . That's exactly what Russia is doing and it is indefensible.

However If Russia somehow funded a bunch of nazi thugs who overthrew the elected government, I think the muricans or brits might very well support an insurgency.

 

[Zidane98]

However If Russia somehow funded a bunch of nazi thugs who overthrew the elected government, I think the muricans or brits might very well support an insurgency.

That is a russian propaganda funded myth and the brits still wouldn't resort to an unofficial armed insurgency to undermine the government.

 

[awaremind]

I guess that was soo 19th century, economic war only ?

 

[awaremind]

Ok so the military wing of the Donetsk and Luhansk rebelion has rejected the Minsk truce. If it was off before, its definately back on now.

"In essence, running into mass rejection of the accords by the militia commanders and fighters, the leadership of the people's republics ended up between two fires: Moscow is pressuring them on one side and authoritative armed people pressure them on the other side. The situation is not enviable, so the leadership is trying to maneuver in order not to spoil the relationship with the truce lobbyists in Moscow and also to preserve the loyalty of field commanders. All of this leads to publicly denouncing the Minsk declarations, which simply smell too bad for openly supporting them."

http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/

 

[corbomite]

A question, corbomite - do you believe the Maidanites and those behind them are completely blameless in all this? Angels? Are you comfortable with the role of groups like the Pravyy Sektor in all this?

You say Russia has priors but believe me, Washington has provoked many, many shitfights, coups and outright invasions on other nations, fabricating evidence as they see fit and murdering their way onwards and upwards. Governmental departments such as USAID and the National Endowment for Democracy are all about regime change in a 'soft power' kind of way and I see a U.S hand moving the Maidanite marionettes to further serve U.S interests while causing a trade rift with Europe that only seems to be growing.

As US assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs 'Tricky Vicki' Nuland said so eloquently at the time, "F*ck the E.U". They too are a trading competitor for the U.S, one it has searched for years on how to blunt without actively stepping on the toes of those that believe the U.S is their 'friend'.

And you're NOT seeing much Putin love - especially not from me. But you will see me call out the Maidanites as being the wrong party in all of this. They did not need to alienate Eastern Ukraine. Ukraine could have maintained friendly ties with all parties and nations - instead it tried to gag half a country.

If Poroshenko and pals aren't not interested in reconciliation and forming an all-inclusive Ukraine then I hope they get thrown out of Eastern Ukraine forever.

I don't know how many more times I can elucidate the situation in Ukraine .. the motivation, the well-worn modus operandi and even an insight into why Russians are what they are and how they can deify the unhinged epitome of mediocrity that is Putin. (Well, I guess it's that or death. Do any of you know what happened to the thousands of anti-Putin demonstrators in Moscow? It's been asked before; well do ya .. do ya?)
Have also mentioned the dangers of gleaning your information from the net as Putin has availed himself of the best PR money can buy. It can make you look foolish. To no avail.

Quite exhausting. Then, invariably, the bleating turns to America and its "many shitfights, coups and outright invasions on other nations." Blah blah, this is irrelevant here. Moreover, a hatred of America transmogrifying into anti-Ukrainian sentiment is irrational.

Yes, I'm quite comfortable, thankyou for asking. The Pravy-Sektor are the 'heavies' of Ukrainian independence and ardent nationalists. The Russians would (and do) refer to them as nazis, which is rich coming from them, but makes for good spin and has clearly worked among the simpletons, en masse.
Pravy-Sector are certainly facilitators, but at grass roots level as well; they provided medical suites on the Maidan. They were also the prime target of the Berkut and their Russian commanders.
Whilst nationalists can be subject to accusations of unfavourable, political tendencies and fanatical proclivities, in this case, it's unwarranted.
Pravy-Sektor are merely fervent patriots defending the sovereignty of their land, and perfectly justified considering every man and his dog has tried to grab Ukraine over the centuries, barring, perhaps, Fiji.
Essentially a peaceful people, Ukraine gave up their nukes in the 90s as a precursor and prerequisite to joining the EU, with assurances from the European powerbrokers that they would be protected .... now this.
Do people expect them to frolic amidst the sunflowers and sing folk songs forever, awaiting succour?

Don't even know why I'm bothering. You're seriously committed 'pamphlet-readers,' who rely on memes and photoshop, then spew forth an incohesive, barely-disguised bias. A classic example of inductive thinking - instead of gathering objective information and forming an opinion, you have a pre-conceived opinion and find subjective evidence to support it. Don't worry, it's very common among the blinkered.
"Poroshenko and pals" ...? ... "hope they get thrown out of eastern Ukraine" ..? Good grief, Vlad would be proud.
The fact remains - Russia has invaded Ukraine, and no amount of fudging can deny that. Nothing to 'reconcile.' No rebels, no separatists, just horse-boy and his tools.

Oh The Coup. So sorry to hear; Arts ?... mature-aged? Now there's a double whammy.
Pretty much explains everything.
And racism .. the best you can do? What a girl.

Btw XX here, for what it's worth.

 

[awaremind]

I don't know how many more times I can elucidate the situation in Ukraine .. the motivation, the well-worn modus operandi and even an insight into why Russians are what they are and how they can deify the unhinged epitome of mediocrity that is Putin. (Well, I guess it's that or death. Do any of you know what happened to the thousands of anti-Putin demonstrators in Moscow? It's been asked before; well do ya .. do ya?)
Have also mentioned the dangers of gleaning your information from the net as Putin has availed himself of the best PR money can buy. It can make you look foolish. To no avail.

Quite exhausting. Then, invariably, the bleating turns to America and its "many shitfights, coups and outright invasions on other nations." Blah blah, this is irrelevant here. Moreover, a hatred of America transmogrifying into anti-Ukrainian sentiment is irrational.

Yes, I'm quite comfortable, thankyou for asking. The Pravy-Sektor are the 'heavies' of Ukrainian independence and ardent nationalists. The Russians would (and do) refer to them as nazis, which is rich coming from them, but makes for good spin and has clearly worked among the simpletons, en masse.
Pravy-Sector are certainly facilitators, but at grass roots level as well; they provided medical suites on the Maidan. They were also the prime target of the Berkut and their Russian commanders.
Whilst nationalists can be subject to accusations of unfavourable, political tendencies and fanatical proclivities, in this case, it's unwarranted.
Pravy-Sektor are merely fervent patriots defending the sovereignty of their land, and perfectly justified considering every man and his dog has tried to grab Ukraine over the centuries, barring, perhaps, Fiji.
Essentially a peaceful people, Ukraine gave up their nukes in the 90s as a precursor and prerequisite to joining the EU, with assurances from the European powerbrokers that they would be protected .... now this.
Do people expect them to frolic amidst the sunflowers and sing folk songs forever, awaiting succour?

Don't even know why I'm bothering. You're seriously committed 'pamphlet-readers,' who rely on memes and photoshop, then spew forth an incohesive, barely-disguised bias. A classic example of inductive thinking - instead of gathering objective information and forming an opinion, you have a pre-conceived opinion and find subjective evidence to support it. Don't worry, it's very common among the blinkered.
"Poroshenko and pals" ...? ... "hope they get thrown out of eastern Ukraine" ..? Good grief, Vlad would be proud.
The fact remains - Russia has invaded Ukraine, and no amount of fudging can deny that. Nothing to 'reconcile.' No rebels, no separatists, just horse-boy and his tools.

Oh The Coup. So sorry to hear; Arts ?... mature-aged? Now there's a double whammy.
Pretty much explains everything.
And racism .. the best you can do? What a girl.

Btw XX here, for what it's worth.

You're a loud mouth one eyed fool. Don't bother posting spend some time getting real life experience. Go hang out with some hard core skin head racist types. (I have when I was younger) You might find it fun- if you like violence against minorities. Follow that link I posted above, go view a few of the videos. View the dead old people and women. That would be hard stuff to fake, as its made for local and global consumption. I would post it in the thread to shock a few *s like you but that will get me banned.

 

[corbomite]

You're a loud mouth one eyed fool. Don't bother posting spend some time getting real life experience. Go hang out with some hard core skin head racist types. (I have when I was younger) You might find it fun- if you like violence against minorities. Follow that link I posted above, go view a few of the videos. View the dead old people and women. That would be hard stuff to fake, as its made for local and global consumption. I would post it in the thread to shock a few ******s like you but that will get me banned.

Thankyou so much for your kind advice, but given that I'm obviously several decades younger than you, it would be difficult for me to 'hang out with skinhead types.'
Facts are facts, and I believe, as said, that you invader supporters are the ones who are blinkered.
"view the dead old people and women" ... Are people different from women? And you know where these pics came from?
I don't think that you're in control of your faculties.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Do any of you know what happened to the thousands of anti-Putin demonstrators in Moscow? It's been asked before; well do ya .. do ya?

Reuters reports no deaths or injuries.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/15/ukraine-crisis-russia-rallies-idUSL6N0MC0JC20140315

Huffington Post reports arrests and possible 10 year sentences being brought against protestors. I admit I can't say I like the sounds of that.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/02/russia-protests_n_4712793.html

The Telegraph (U.K) reports arrests. It also brings up the case of Pussy Riot, the punk group who were shockingly thrown in jail for dissent. Can't say I agree with how they were treated either.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...Russia-Could-these-protests-topple-Putin.html

Yes, corbomite. Vladimir Putin has many autocratic tendencies. You call him mad and unhinged, but I see no evidence of this. He's in the wrong for silencing legitimate criticism in this way, but it hardly shows insanity does it?

Quite exhausting. Then, invariably, the bleating turns to America and its "many shitfights, coups and outright invasions on other nations." Blah blah, this is irrelevant here. Moreover, a hatred of America transmogrifying into anti-Ukrainian sentiment is irrational.

I see Washington's hand stirring the pot, as it has done many times before. Playing the game. The Soviets played. The Russians and the Chinese play. It may be mere geopolitics in the grand scheme of things and an extension of that 'Great Game' that all Powers and Aspiring Powers play, but it doesn't make it any less wrong.

People are still dying as a result.

Yes, I'm quite comfortable, thankyou for asking. The Pravy-Sektor are the 'heavies' of Ukrainian independence and ardent nationalists. The Russians would (and do) refer to them as nazis, which is rich coming from them, but makes for good spin and has clearly worked among the simpletons, en masse.

Pravy-Sector are certainly facilitators, but at grass roots level as well; they provided medical suites on the Maidan. They were also the prime target of the Berkut and their Russian commanders.
Whilst nationalists can be subject to accusations of unfavourable, political tendencies and fanatical proclivities, in this case, it's unwarranted.

Pravy-Sektor are merely fervent patriots defending the sovereignty of their land, and perfectly justified considering every man and his dog has tried to grab Ukraine over the centuries, barring, perhaps, Fiji.
Essentially a peaceful people, Ukraine gave up their nukes in the 90s as a precursor and prerequisite to joining the EU, with assurances from the European powerbrokers that they would be protected .... now this.
Do people expect them to frolic amidst the sunflowers and sing folk songs forever, awaiting succour?

Yeah. To call them actual Nazis is technically incorrect. They are Far-Right though, and employ a fervent nationalism that is dangerous to any who don't share their own narrow viewpoint. I don't trust Nationalists and find the unfavourable picture painted of them pretty much completely warranted. But we'll agree to disagree on that.

Again, I've said I 'get' the mistrust of Russian intent following its Soviet past. Ukraine could have bridged a gap between the E.U and Russia though, and risen above the petty squabbling and, more seriously, the deadly civil war that the Maidanites have brought to the nation through their desire to shut out Russia and Russian-linked peoples from the national discourse.

They viewed THEIR Maidan protests as legit but failed to give the same right to protest to those in the East, who feared losing their voices completely in this brave new Ukraine. When the heavies were sent in protest turned to insurrection and then secessionism.

What is so damed hard about discourse? I'm not agreeing with you and you're not agreeing with me, but I'm pretty sure we could grab a beer together and work it out. Or at least agree to disagree while still enjoying beers. Why do nations have such a bad time working this s**t out?

Don't even know why I'm bothering. You're seriously committed 'pamphlet-readers,' who rely on memes and photoshop, then spew forth an incohesive, barely-disguised bias. A classic example of inductive thinking - instead of gathering objective information and forming an opinion, you have a pre-conceived opinion and find subjective evidence to support it. Don't worry, it's very common among the blinkered.
"Poroshenko and pals" ...? ... "hope they get thrown out of eastern Ukraine" ..? Good grief, Vlad would be proud.
The fact remains - Russia has invaded Ukraine, and no amount of fudging can deny that. Nothing to 'reconcile.' No rebels, no separatists, just horse-boy and his tools.

If the United States and NATO had undeniable proof that active Russian military units were crossing the border and engaging the Ukrainian Army don't you think they'd show it for the world to see? It proclaimed images like this

as 'proof'. It's laughable, though. What is it? Where is it? How close to the border?

More here
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/0...d-ukraine-with-highly-sophisticated-weaponry/

How can you actually tell WHERE this is? It could be absolutely anywhere. Washington has a track record in falsifying evidence as a prelude to war. Remember in 2003 former General Colin Powell informing the U.N Security Council of the vital need to invade Iraq right there, right then?

The Speech
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/feb/05/iraq.usa

The Reality (from a censored report within the NSA archives)
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB129/part7-powell.pdf

The Guilt and Remorse
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2005-09-09/powell-regrets-un-speech-on-iraq-wmds/2099674

Over four thousand U.S troops died because of that lie. That's not counting the countless numbers of Iraqi dead.

You think they wouldn't lie again? If no, I think I might have a bridge to sell to you, corbomite

 

[awaremind]

Thankyou so much for your kind advice, but given that I'm obviously several decades younger than you, it would be difficult for me to 'hang out with skinhead types.'
Facts are facts, and I believe, as said, that you invader supporters are the ones who are blinkered.
"view the dead old people and women" ... Are people different from women? And you know where these pics came from?
I don't think that you're in control of your faculties.

They are not pics Its in video form, killing people with shrapnel would be going to very long lengths to produce a hardly exposed propaganda film. I can't speak russian yet(I'm getting there though), so its still hard to analyse the legitimacy, but it would quickly get exposed by people who could understand, if it was fake. BTW Im 29, I'm sure there are still racists around.

 

[nut]

You're pretty quiet about your theory MH 17 was sent over the area on purpose these days. Even quieter about the Russians blatantly lying about it. Wonder why you are so quick to jump on an issue like this but yet are unwilling to criticise the Russians for knowingly spreading blatant lies and propaganda?

Russians Lying????

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/upload...3acad0ceprem-rapport-mh-17-en-interactief.pdf

Who is lying????