Talls, talls and more talls....

[Trojan Pies]

Thought it relevant to discuss the development and likely positions of the multitude of talls on our list given it has already been raised on other threads.

We have certainly stockpiled a high number of KP and ruck types. Let's list them out in order of height firstly (lock senior players are bolded):

1. Jackson Paine, 191cm
2. Chris Tarrant, 193cm
3. Chris Dawes, 193cm
4. Nathan Brown, 195cm
5. Ben Ried, 195cm
6. Travis Cloke, 196cm
7. Michael Hartley, 196cm
8. Corey Gault, 198cm
9. Darren Jolly, 200cm
10. Lachlan Keefe, 204cm
11. Cameron Wood, 204cm
12. Shae McNamara, 204cm
13. Jonathon Ceglar, 204cm
14. Jarrod Witts, 208cm

From a development perspective it is going to be a very difficult balancing act to ensure players get good time in the positions they will eventually aim to fill in the seniors. Of the players in the list above, this is how I would envisage their development being in 2012:

Jarrod Witts - We all know this kid will be groomed to eventually fill our first ruckman role in the seniors. As such, he will job share in the VFL as starting ruck and KP forward, likely resting FF/FP.

Cameron Wood - the expectation from most Collingwood supporters is that we expect to see more of Cam in the seniors given his performances towards the end of 2011. It remains to be seen how he will be depolyed in conjunction with Jolly and provides a conundrum for match committee.

Nathan Brown - on the road back from injury who is wholly and solely a KP back. I expect to see him start the year in the magoos to get some run into him before potentially moving into the seniors. Should this happen it may see Taz moved into a combination of BP, given he can play on smalls, and/or time in the forward line. While in VFL Brown will exclusively play FB.

Michael Hartley - will be rookied and will likely start on a HB flank. This will enable him to play on 3rd talls which will be more suited to him while his body develops and matures.

Lachlan Keefe - an interesting position for Lach given he was groomed as a CHB where he played his best football, then when promoted played the lead up half forward (which was unfair on him IMO). 2012 will see him continue to play the CHB role with a view to him increasing his accumulation of the footy. He is a neat kick and will have increased responsibilities in distrubting the ball out of HB a la Ried.

Shae McNamara - this biggest riddle of them all is knowing where they are going with the big Yank. He played just about everywhere last season and it seemed his best footy was played while coming off a wing. I expect him to continue his development here with a view to using his height to beat his opponent as a link up man. He will no doubt find himself in many different positions throughout the year due to his athleticism and mobility.

Jonathon Ceglar - is now 4th in the long term ruck queue. Played predominately as a forward last year pinch hitting in the ruck and expect this trend to continue. If he is to forge a career at the Pies it will be as a 2nd ruck who plays forward.

Jackson Paine - listed him despite being listed at only 191cm on Pies website. Will be groomed as a third tall who will be expected to come over the top and crash packs. I see him developing in a Jack Darling type of fashion.

Corey Gault - I believe Corey will be groomed as a KP forward almost exclusively next season, perhaps taking some of the ruck duties in the forward line. I see him becoming almost exclusively developed as a tall FF - think Paul Salmon.

What are your thoughts on how these players will be developed?

Finally, just to wrap up my little analysis and to throw out a last 2nd curve ball - does anyone get an uneasy feeling that we have stockpiled all this tall timber partially as an insurance policy should we lose a Reid, Cloke or other KP tall next season?

 

[Knightmare]

I REALLY like the shape of our KPP stocks now.

What loading up this year does is it allows us next year to go with the best available mid/other next year. There are ALLOT of super talented mids to be had next year so 2nd/3rd round it will be handy to be able to go best available and take the most talented kid there.

Best of all James Stewart will be able to complete our developing key forward stocks. So we have a great foundation to continue building our list.

On value I rate:
KPF:
1. Cloke
2. Dawes
3. J.Stewart (When he joins us)
4. Paine

Ruck:
1. Jolly
2. Witts
3. Ceglar/Gault
4.
5. Wood
6. McNamara

KPD:
1. Reid
2. Tarrant
3. N.Brown
4. Keeffe
5. Hartley

*Underlined are those I expect will be delisted at end of 2012.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Yeah, with a Stewart next year I am reasonably happy with our young stable of talls, although quantity doesn't necessarily mean quality.

That would leave us next year to focus again on bringing in hopefully a good inside running mid from our first round pick (hoping Stewart can last til our second round) or even best available (that isn't a ruckman).

 

[dillo_09]

It's all about succession planning and having players at their peak when we need them. We need to understand that talls take longer to get co-ordinated and learn their game. Dont forget that the big blokes occupy the hardest positions on the ground - CHF, CHB, FB, FF and ruck.

No-one expects the ruckmen to play 300 games, although it would be nice, but the plan is to groom the young guys in the VFL for a couple of years and bring them into the senior side when they begin to mature as footballers.

For example, Jolly is the man at the moment with Support from Cam Wood. Cam 'should' be coming good about now, hopefully pushing up to replace Jolly. Witts, Shae Mac and Ceglar behind Wood and pushing him through, with the best of the three rising to the top to become #2 and eventually #1 ruck when Wood is past his best, if he isnt already, but I digress. Gault is now the next in line on the succession plan.

This is smart list management, planning and recruiting. If we dont have a plan in place to have AFL quality ruckmen in the team in 5 years we will fail.

 

[Ed D]

Yeah, with a Stewart next year I am reasonably happy with our young stable of talls, although quantity doesn't necessarily mean quality.

That would leave us next year to focus again on bringing in hopefully a good inside running mid from our first round pick (hoping Stewart can last til our second round) or even best available (that isn't a ruckman).

Very true, there's still quite a bit of development to go with our talls before we can be completely happy with them, but it is looking pretty good.

 

[TheOldXav]

We also get James Stewart next draft and according to Emma Q, is a high end 1st Round Pick. If you look at Carlton, they are plugging holes with SANFL types as their best KPP is a flaky 28 year old who can't put a full season together. They are going nowhere and even Hughes said they were trying to model their structure on the Cloke/Dawes duo.

Next year is meant to be a bonanza for midfielders like the 08' draft.

 

[Ed D]

Thought it relevant to discuss the development and likely positions of the multitude of talls on our list given it has already been raised on other threads.

We have certainly stockpiled a high number of KP and ruck types. Let's list them out in order of height firstly (lock senior players are bolded):

1. Jackson Paine, 191cm
2. Chris Tarrant, 193cm
3. Chris Dawes, 193cm
4. Nathan Brown, 195cm
5. Ben Ried, 195cm
6. Travis Cloke, 196cm
7. Michael Hartley, 196cm
8. Corey Gault, 198cm
9. Darren Jolly, 200cm
10. Lachlan Keefe, 204cm
11. Cameron Wood, 204cm
12. Shae McNamara, 204cm
13. Jonathon Ceglar, 204cm
14. Jarrod Witts, 208cm

I'm not sure you'd list these guys as KPP but there's even more height on our list:

Maxwell, 193cm
Goldsack, 193cm
Young, 191cm
--
Pendlebury, 191cm
Cribbin, 191cm

 

[Trojan Pies]

[/list]
I'm not sure you'd list these guys as KPP but there's even more height on our list:

Maxwell, 193cm
Goldsack, 193cm
Young, 191cm
--
Pendlebury, 191cm
Cribbin, 191cm

Yeah I did look at these guys but didn't consider them as not true KPP. The most interesting stat I noticed is that Paine is listed as the same height as Pendles. Now from the footage of Paine and all of us knowing Pendles like the back of our hands, I find this very hard to believe. If true, this would suggest that Paine very much fits the Jack Darling mold.

 

[Ed D]

Pendles' height is quite deceptive as he's often crouched down/weaving in and out that he doesn't play tall, but if you actually look at him out on the ground when he's standing in packs etc he's a tall midfielder that's for sure.

 

[rustyg70]

My feeling is that we will develop both Paine and Gault as forwards.

Im fairly excited about Paine from all of the descriptions Ive heard as to how he plays. He would make a very handy third tall in the forward line.
I especially like the way he is supposed to attack the ball and crash the packs.

Gault has alot of weight to put on before we could even consider throwing to the wolves in the ruck. Even though he has a great vertical leap,he would get monstered in the ruck.
He was played as a key forward for Swan Districts Seniors in the WAFL late in the season this year.

 

[danielnajdek]

The way Stewart gets talked up on here I can't wait until next year to see this kid.

Hopefully no other club bids for him but I doubt that (trying to be greedy here )

 

[rustyg70]

The way Stewart gets talked up on here I can't wait until next year to see this kid.

Hopefully no other club bids for him but I doubt that (trying to be greedy here )

I think you might be a day behind the rest of us mate.

 

[eddiebankbalance]

couldn't they throw in a Tall Fev FFS?

 

[rustyg70]

couldn't they throw in a Tall Fev FFS?

The heart says Yes,
The head says NO.

 

[Markfs]

Personally, I think its a numbers game. If you pick half a dozen guys above 190cm, you hope to get a few games out of a couple of them.....especially where none of them are top draft picks..

 

[jonny_d4]

You also have to remember we delisted 3 tall rookies this year who were playing vfl and replaced them with the boys drafted this year, so in terms of minutes, I wouldn't imagine it would be too significant

 

[THATSGOLD]

I REALLY like the shape of our KPP stocks now.

What loading up this year does is it allows us next year to go with the best available mid/other next year. There are ALLOT of super talented mids to be had next year so 2nd/3rd round it will be handy to be able to go best available and take the most talented kid there.

Best of all James Stewart will be able to complete our developing key forward stocks. So we have a great foundation to continue building our list.

On value I rate:
KPF:
1. Cloke
2. Dawes
3. J.Stewart (When he joins us)
4. Paine

Ruck:
1. Jolly
2. Witts
3. Ceglar/Gault
4.
5. Wood
6. McNamara

KPD:
1. Reid
2. Tarrant
3. N.Brown
4. Keeffe
5. Hartley

*Underlined are those I expect will be delisted at end of 2012.

Will Tarrant be gone in 2013? this is a list for 2013 if youre including stewart right? Jolly will be 2 years older, will N Browns knees hold up? Will shae be around in two years? Few questions for 2013 before putting them all together

 

[Lockyer24]

Hinesight knows what he is doing.

He loads up on talls before midfielders as they take longer to develop, so hypothetically they should peak together.

When he took talls Reid and Brown in 06 draft we were a bit "WTF?"

Then in 08 we took Beams and Sidebottom. Within 2 years we had 4 x Premiership quality players.

Now again our depth in the reserves of midfield talent is quite shallow, but we have the talls sorted out already.

When drafting returns to normal next year and we keep and utilise how first and second round picks on midfield types which generally always tend to be available, our list will be in glorious shape, at least balance wise.

 

[speedytiger]

You also have to remember we delisted 3 tall rookies this year who were playing vfl and replaced them with the boys drafted this year, so in terms of minutes, I wouldn't imagine it would be too significant

It was funny at times in the VFL this year, we had either giants or short people running around. Hardly any mid size players at all. We had rucks playing on the wing. All I wanted out of this draft was no more short people! Didn't expect we'd get 2 more talls though. However... In Hine we trust

 

[76woodenspooners]

The players often refer to "competition for spots" in the team, and that being a key motivator for players to train well / play well.

But in 2011 we lacked that competition in the team for tall spots. When Jolly was fit, Wood didn't play; when Jolly was injured or resting, Wood did play. Where's the motivation for Wood? Keefe got his chance by default. And there was nobody in the team who could compete with an injured Reid.

Now we have an embarrassment of talls, there'll start to be competition for spots (maybe even in the VFL team). Imagine how Ceglar, Witts and Shae Mac would be feeling now about our uncommitted draft selections?

There'll certainly be no room for complacency in our developing talls.

Probably unlikely that Paine / Gault / Ceglar / Witts / Hartley / Shae Mac will be troubling the senior selectors too much in 2012, but sometime after that we may cull a few of them, and still have good competition in the team for talls.

 

[The Average Tourist]

It was funny at times in the VFL this year, we had either giants or short people running around. Hardly any mid size players at all. We had rucks playing on the wing. All I wanted out of this draft was no more short people! Didn't expect we'd get 2 more talls though. However... In Hine we trust

I must admit I was hoping some mediums to falls would get drafted. And hoping for no more "small forwards" even though we have lost Davis and Dick.
Like the idea of a bit of size let them play two years in the magoos and see what they look like.
Also glad we did not go any more recycled players
I reckon if MM was still with us Setanta would have been picked up

 

[THATSGOLD]

The players often refer to "competition for spots" in the team, and that being a key motivator for players to train well / play well.

But in 2011 we lacked that competition in the team for tall spots. When Jolly was fit, Wood didn't play; when Jolly was injured or resting, Wood did play. Where's the motivation for Wood? Keefe got his chance by default. And there was nobody in the team who could compete with an injured Reid.

Now we have an embarrassment of talls, there'll start to be competition for spots (maybe even in the VFL team). Imagine how Ceglar, Witts and Shae Mac would be feeling now about our uncommitted draft selections?

There'll certainly be no room for complacency in our developing talls.

Probably unlikely that Paine / Gault / Ceglar / Witts / Hartley / Shae Mac will be troubling the senior selectors too much in 2012, but sometime after that we may cull a few of them, and still have good competition in the team for talls.

Well said! With the competition for spots it may even develop them quicker. Witts Ceglar and Gault rucking int he vfl... being able to pick one out of the crop will be a good thing. Also they won't have to shoulder the number one ruck role all season in the vfl which will help them sustain it for the year and being so young won't burn them out as fast.

 

[jackcass]

Hinesight knows what he is doing.

He loads up on talls before midfielders as they take longer to develop, so hypothetically they should peak together.

When he took talls Reid and Brown in 06 draft we were a bit "WTF?"

Then in 08 we took Beams and Sidebottom. Within 2 years we had 4 x Premiership quality players.

Now again our depth in the reserves of midfield talent is quite shallow, but we have the talls sorted out already.

When drafting returns to normal next year and we keep and utilise how first and second round picks on midfield types which generally always tend to be available, our list will be in glorious shape, at least balance wise.

I disagree that we're "shallow" in midfield talent. We've got the established players Pendles, Swan, Ball, Thomas, Sidebottom, Wellingham, Blair, Didak, Johnson, Beams, the Krak and we have a number of kids in Fasolo, Sinclair, J Thomas, Ugle, and Rounds, possibly even Seedsman as a wingman. On top of that we've added Marty Clark, Yagmoor, and Elliott. And the age profile is very good. I've probably missed 1 or 2 but just how many midfielders do you think we need.

We've cleaned out a lot of talls so we definitely need to recruit talls, especially KP talent, to offer long term depth and do the development work on.

 

[Jelly Bean]

I disagree that we're "shallow" in midfield talent. We've got the established players Pendles, Swan, Ball, Thomas, Sidebottom, Wellingham, Blair, Didak, Johnson, Beams, the Krak and we have a number of kids in Fasolo, Sinclair, J Thomas, Ugle, and Rounds, possibly even Seedsman as a wingman. On top of that we've added Marty Clark, Yagmoor, and Elliott. And the age profile is very good. I've probably missed 1 or 2 but just how many midfielders do you think we need.

We've cleaned out a lot of talls so we definitely need to recruit talls, especially KP talent, to offer long term depth and do the development work on.

Alot of the names you have listed are not predominantly midfielders though (as opposed to players who can go through the midfield as a chop out), and many from the remaining group are oldish... I think we need a good young pure midfielder or two to balance things out - not for next year, but 3+ years down the track.

One thing I am concerned about based on our drafting is Keeffe. He will now be denied (I assume) 'ruck development minutes' AND 'key forward development minutes', meaning he will largely be destined to be a key defender or nothing (and I question whether he will ever be good enough to be a stand-alone key back). I was hoping he could be given a chance at playing key tall forward / second ruck at times in the seniors this year if Wood didn't grab it, but that appears slim now.

 

[jackcass]

Alot of the names you have listed are not predominantly midfielders though (as opposed to players who can go through the midfield as a chop out), and many from the remaining group are oldish... I think we need a good young pure midfielder or two to balance things out - not for next year, but 3+ years down the track.

One thing I am concerned about based on our drafting is Keeffe. He will now be denied (I assume) 'ruck development minutes' AND 'key forward development minutes', meaning he will largely be destined to be a key defender or nothing (and I question whether he will ever be good enough to be a stand-alone key back). I was hoping he could be given a chance at playing key tall forward / second ruck at times in the seniors this year if Wood didn't grab it, but that appears slim now.

You could argue tht Cameron Ling wasn't "predominantly" a midfielder when recruited but he made a fair fist of it throughout his carreer. I appreciate that a lot of the players I'd listed were predominantly utility types but their capacity to graduate into midfield roles is as much about development and opportunity as anything else. Daisy was recruited as a utility forward type but he does a reasonable job running through the midfield.

My main point was that we currently have a large number of players who can run through the midfield but we were seriously lacking talls for long term development and consequently the recruitment of Witts, Hartley, Paine and Gault will address that. Good quality talls are so much harder to find hence the need to recruit and develop or turnover.