Chris Judd

[Monkey King]

You aren't familiar with the concept of opportunity cost, are you?

Unfortunately for you, being familiar with the concept and quantifying the concept, are two completely different things huh? From then to now, Carlton have certainly got more than they gave away and the only way to budge that reality is to stretch opportunity cost to it's limits with fantasized games of six degrees of separation. Well anyone can do that ...

So Carlton keep JK and pick 3 & 20. With their notoriously bad rep for developing young KPP's and JK's propensity for injury, he never reaches his potential at the Blues, having a best-of year kicking 48 goals in 2013; although he does have a couple of reasonable seasons covering down at CHB. Carlton took Rhys Palmer with pick 3 (as rumoured) who not only did bugger all for the club, but pissed off to GWS after a few years. Having missed out on a quick mid in Judd, Carlton use pick 20 to select Clayton Hinkley, who is subsequently delisted after 20 games. After being awarded the captaincy, Nick Stevens hung around for a bit longer, and given the club's dearth of senior leaders, so did Lance Whitnall. Of course, after missing out on Judd, the club didn't rise up the ladder and selected Hartlett the following year, who like his brother, had his career decimated by injury ... so on and so forth. In the end, Carlton's young draftees lacked a professional edge and guys like Murphy were tagged ragged early in their career and retired early with beaten bodies. Much like Melbourne of today, Carlton barely managed to threaten the top eight. With the Bad News Blues battling to retain sponsors, compounded by lack of free-to-air exposure, they faced threat of extinction a number of times in the years after missing out of signing Judd.

Is that how we play?

 

[HARKER]

He's lost his zip

You wouldn't have said that at the tail end of the pre-season.
Judd was looking as quick as his W.C. days, accelerating out of packs.

Something is clearly not right with him, irrespective of what commentators may say.
The truth will come out soon enough.

 

[Clay Davis]

While I hate Carlton, I find it odd that Collingwood fans are so gleeful here, given their own turncoat superstar in Buckley took nearly 10 years to yield anything meaningful, with a wooden spoon and bottom table finishes thrown in in between.

That was a bigger a fail than the Judd trade.

 

[shiva25]

You wouldn't have said that at the tail end of the pre-season.
Judd was looking as quick as his W.C. days, accelerating out of packs.

Something is clearly not right with him, irrespective of what commentators may say.
The truth will come out soon enough.

The thing that i cant understand is that Ratten came out last week and stated Judd was injured so why has he been playing then? If he is injured i would have thought he shouldve missed the last few games until he is right to play again

 

[HARKER]

The thing that i cant understand is that Ratten came out last week and stated Judd was injured so why has he been playing then? If he is injured i would have thought he shouldve missed the last few games until he is right to play again

Desperation? I agree with you. If he isn't right, he shouldn't be playing.
Having said that Kreuzer has issues with his knee also. We're just running out of players.

The focus this week has been on Judd's back and shoulders, yet I wouldn't be surprised if it is his groin that's troubling him.
Judd had trimmed down from the previous year and looked to me to have been geared towards playing a little more of an outside role.
I wouldn't have made that comment on his speed had I not seen it for myself. He was flying.

 

[shiva25]

Desperation? I agree with you. If he isn't right, he shouldn't be playing.
Having said that Kreuzer has issues with his knee also. We're just running out of players.

The focus this week has been on Judd's back and shoulders, yet I wouldn't be surprised if it is his groin that's troubling him.
Judd had trimmed down from the previous year and looked to me to have been geared towards playing a little more of an outside role.
I wouldn't have made that comment on his speed had I not seen it for myself. He was flying.

Running out of players is no excuse to continue playing if your not right. I reckon Ratten deserves a kick in ass for playing him knowing full well that he wasnt right. That fact that he comes out and states this makes him look silly and gives the impression that he lacks player management skills espescially when it comes to your best players. I dont think its looking good for Ratten to coach beyond this year

 

[HARKER]

Running out of players is no excuse to continue playing if your not right. I reckon Ratten deserves a kick in arse for playing him knowing full well that he wasnt right. That fact that he comes out and states this makes him look silly and gives the impression that he lacks player management skills espescially when it comes to your best players. I dont think its looking good for Ratten to coach beyond this year

I agree with you in principle, but it may just not all be Ratten's fault.
Judd himself and the MC may just have some call in the matter.

We'll just have to see how he comes up against Hawthorn after a week off.

 

[Spuddage]

I agree with you in principle, but it may just not all be Ratten's fault.
Judd himself and the MC may just have some call in the matter.

We'll just have to see how he comes up against Hawthorn after a week off.

Ratten needs Judd to play, if Carlton dont start winning then he (Ratten) wont be there next year, so he doesnt care about Judds future.

 

[La Dispute]

I think you're missing the context within which these signings (Buckley to Collingwood, Lockett to Sydney, Judd to Carlton) were made- sometimes perception matters. Ron Barassi brought success and premierships to Carlton, but whether his aura and a changed perception around the club fuelled that success or was merely a by-product of that success is a question that needs to be considered. It's the chicken and the egg..

Sydney needed Lockett and his intangible marketability more than they needed a premiership in the mid-90s. Would Sydney have even survived to win the 2005 flag if they had not signed Plugger in the 90s?

Getting Chris Judd in 2007 similarly meant more to Carlton than immediate gratification- they needed their identity back. They needed to be Carlton again. That's why getting Chris Judd mattered.

Good post.

I think the one thing people assume when a club is down for so long is that their rise to the top will be just as sudden given the host of early picks it has which has shown not to be the case.

Sure, getting Judd has helped the team by bringing his professional attitude and has played many exceptional games, but his influence has only really been seen the past few years and we are only starting to see the way the club has developed its off field culture.

On field, Marc Murphy has taken his game to another level and can win plenty of contested ball and follow up by providing outside spread, Mitch Robinson, although often maligned, is now one of our most important players and others like Ellard and Armfield are cementing spots in spite of their deficiencies.

We might get to a grand final with Judd in the team but I wouldn't be surprised if we don't. Just like Collingwood with Buckley, that professionalism and work ethic is the best thing they can bring.

 

[EOP26]

While I hate Carlton, I find it odd that Collingwood fans are so gleeful here, given their own turncoat superstar in Buckley took nearly 10 years to yield anything meaningful, with a wooden spoon and bottom table finishes thrown in in between.

That was a bigger a fail than the Judd trade.

When Bucks left the Brisbane Bears they where playing in finals and Winning flags - Just like Judd when he left West Coast..

 

[Clay Davis]

When Bucks left the Brisbane Bears they where playing in finals and Winning flags - Just like Judd when he left West Coast..

Brisbane went on to win three flags.

There's also the juicy coincidence that the pick Brisbane ended up with in the Buckley trade, Chris Scott, got two premierships himself and ended up coaching Geelong in their victory against Collingwood.

Do Collingwood fans really want to stick it to Judd and Carlton?

 

[rose jam]

While I hate Carlton, I find it odd that Collingwood fans are so gleeful here, given their own turncoat superstar in Buckley took nearly 10 years to yield anything meaningful, with a wooden spoon and bottom table finishes thrown in in between.

That was a bigger a fail than the Judd trade.

Gave up Troy Lehmann and Craig Starcevich for a 6 time copeland trophy winner, bronwlow medallist, norm smith medallist, longest serving captain, and current coach.

Think we did alright out of that. Just sayin' brah.

 

[Clay Davis]

Gave up Troy Lehmann and Craig Starcevich for a 6 time copeland trophy winner, bronwlow medallist, norm smith medallist, longest serving captain, and current coach.

Think we did alright out of that. Just sayin' brah.

And the coach of the team that defeated you last year.

 

[Collingwoodity]

Brisbane went on to win three flags.

There's also the juicy coincidence that the pick Brisbane ended up with in the Buckley trade, Chris Scott, got two premierships himself and ended up coaching Geelong in their victory against Collingwood.

Do Collingwood fans really want to stick it to Judd and Carlton?

But we could be paying out your club for the shit trade deal they had done but it doesn t matter now that both are retired...

judd is not retired and neither is masten or kennedy...

comprehension fail

 

[Xsess]

Judd arguably cost Carlton last weeks game, not the umpires. Fluffed a simple mark at a critical time, gave away free kicks, sealed the win with an undisciplined 50 and otherwise allowed his direct opponent to run amok on him 3 possession to 1. Blues fans have embarrassed themself all week trying to shift that reality to the poor maggots. Yes Carlton benefited from some good years out of the Judd trade but the cost vs benefit equasion will increasing shift WCE's from now. Our midfield is young and improving while Judd'd decline will take the Blues midfield with it. Of course the ace in the Judd trade pack for West Coast is the long term presence of a gun key forward to finish off the midfield work.

 

[Terex8]

When Bucks left the Brisbane Bears they where playing in finals and Winning flags - Just like Judd when he left West Coast..

That is incorrect.

Brisbane didn't make the finals until 1995, Buckley left in 1993. They finished 14th in 93' and 13th in 94'. They also changed their coach 3 times in 4 years previous till 1993.

Buckley wanted to go to Collingwood at the end of 1992. He was zoned to Brisbane because he spent some of his formative years in Darwin. Chris McDermott, Andrew and Darren Jarmen were all drafted to the Bears but unlike Buckley, they refused to play for the Bears in the same period because they were an offield and onfield rabble.

 

[rose jam]

And the coach of the team that defeated you last year.

Chris Scott??? ah, was he the one that defected from Hawthorn?

 

[tesseract]

Now you claim an injured player would make a big difference You're living in a fantasy dude.



Funny! That's exactly what I would say about anyone claiming that WCE have a clear win over the seasons that have elapsed since the trade. Judd's been the winner in each completed season and may still well be this season too; yet you claim Carlton lost the trade overall. Yep! Yours is an opinion based purely on the fiction of an assumed future.



You may not have realised, but you've stopped talking about the trade here.

Who's to say Kennedy would've become injured with the same injury he currently has if he had remained at Carlton? No one here can say. So, due to your poor attempt at reasoning, your deflection is fail. The fact remains that Kennedy's type is what Carlton need, atm, and Carlton's trading strategy backfired by making him, one of the best of his type in the AFL, part of the trade, even though he didn't want to go.

We were comparing how West Coast and Carlton came off in that trade; now you want to deflect by naming an individual > another to display who has won the trade. I've already asked you to stay on point previously. Are you ADHD by any chance? The fact remains that Kennedy and Masten have helped surpass a Judd-lead Blues in only a few short years. That's why WC are better off with who they received in the trade, and are in front this trade. 2011 and 2012 results are for all to see.

My response to your claim is completely relevant considering you posted: "Carlton have walked out winners every year so far." 2011 and 2012 results show that the trade worked out better for WC than for the Judd-lead Blues because the Blues have been surpassed by the Eagles during the years I've stated.

 

[tesseract]

How about at the end of 2007? Why use a ladder position from three years after the trade to assess the value of the trade for Carlton? WCE were reigning premiers in 2007, Carlton were reigning wooden-spooners. And now suddenly Carlton lost the trade because WCE finished one spot above them last year? It's a stupid approach!

Due to losing Judd and Cousins, as well as having a host of other retirements coming around the 2007-2009 period, WC had to rebuild. Carlton were in rebuild mode at the same stage also, but started their rebuild even while WC were in flag mode during the years previous. Given WC have rebuilt in a far shorter period, and have gone on to surpass Carlton, it's fair to say that the trading in of Judd didn't bring about the expected results for Carlton. Carlton, with all of their early draft picks, would've expected better results by now than where they've finished in previous seasons. This season is almost a write-off for Carlton, too. So, yes, ladder finishes do have a bearing as to how the trade went. Ladder finishes aren't a stupid approach, just an inconvenient for your argument approach.

 

[tesseract]

Yet another poster unable to differentiate between team performance and trade performance.

It's not a matter of one or the other; they're both linked.

 

[laminex]

Source?

Nah. Absolute fail.

Both Judd and WC have said it many times the club new before he was made captain that he would more than likely not sign a new contract. What is the big deal about my post that offends you so much to reply like you are 12yrs old??

 

[laminex]

Perhaps you should do the same. Judd never said he was leaving the Eagles until after the Collingwood final. You are blatantly making shit up.

He told he and the club have both spoken about this many times, grow the **** up kid.

 

[laminex]

Don't try to rewrite history to suit your own argument.
Juddas told the club he would talk about his contract at the end of the year - and yet the day after our season ended, he called a presser and announced he was leaving. That is the reason he has lost any respect he may have garnered during his tenure at the club.

sure mate, the way you treat a true legend of your club is disgraceful and disgusting and says alot about the people who support the club. Have some face have some god dam self respect and thank him for what he did for the club and wish well. Geelong supporters once again show they way and show respect for a club champion.

 

[Son of Skeletor]

While I hate Carlton, I find it odd that Collingwood fans are so gleeful here, given their own turncoat superstar in Buckley took nearly 10 years to yield anything meaningful, with a wooden spoon and bottom table finishes thrown in in between.

That was a bigger a fail than the Judd trade.

I'm a Collingwood supporter, albeit one who derives no glee from what Chris Judd and Carlton do and do not achieve..

Saying that the Buckley trade was a bigger 'fail' than the Judd trade is spurious logic to say the least.

Neither trade could ever, by any reasonable definition, be described as a 'fail'. The infamous Fremantle-Essendon trade involving Lloyd and Lucas is an example of a genuine 'fail' trade (not trying to rub it in, it's just an example). What happened at Collingwood in the late 90s had nothing to do with what Buckley produced (or what Collingwood gave up in that trade), and everything to do with subsequent poor recruiting and mismanagement.

Winning premierships is incredibly hard. They take a lot of work, a lot of talent, and need a lot of things to fall into place. Getting Buckley cost Collingwood exactly 0 premierships. Similarly, I'm extremely sceptical of any claims that Carlton's recruiting of Judd has cost them an alleged nailed-on premiership in 2012, or in the future. It's just nonsense.

 

[FGMPR]

He told he and the club have both spoken about this many times, grow the **** up kid.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that abomination of words you just wrote equates to 'Judd told the Eagles he was going home many times'. I'll even ignore the pathetic, Z-grade insult at the end, lest we drag this thread down to your level.

Bottom line is... prove it. Show me the article where Judd said anything close to that. You mentioned it, the onus is on you to prove it. Otherwise, do yourself a favour and stop embarrassing yourself. You already did enough of that in the last gameday thread.

edit: http://www.afl.com.au/Season2007/News/NewsArticle/tabid/208/Default.aspx?newsId=39629

West Coast chairman Dalton Gooding said last night the Eagles were confident Judd would remain at the club beyond 2007. "All contract negotiations are on hold until the end of the season," Gooding said. "Our football manager Steve Woodhouse approached Chris's manager about a month ago. That's what Chris came back with," Gooding said. "He has always been consistent with that. "He has said he would not sign another [contract] mid-season. He had a bit of a flat spot after he signed a contract last time. "We respect that. There will be no discussion. We're very confident he will be here beyond 2007."