Mega Thread All AOD-9604 Discussion - Still Illegal but ASADA will not press charges on AOD9604 - McDevitt

[rumply]

Bse has no arguable points.
He has been easily argued against. He just refuses to accept it and I can't do anything about that.
I have considerable knowledge in biochemistry too. His arguments are weak and would not stand up in a court as I have run them past a friend of mine who is a Supreme Court Judge.
So he can bleat all he likes. His arguments just won't get him anywhere!

 

[Barkly St End]

Bse has no arguable points.
He has been easily argued against. He just refuses to accept it and I can't do anything about that.
I have considerable knowledge in biochemistry too. His arguments are weak and would not stand up in a court as I have run them past a friend of mine who is a Supreme Court Judge.
So he can bleat all he likes. His arguments just won't get him anywhere!

Whoah - you've run my weak arguments past a Supreme Court Judge!

Bringing in the big guns!

Have you had the opportunity yet to run it past the full bench of the High Court?

 

[Gavstar]

And one for luck - showing the AOD-9604 is a growth factor.

" Growth hormone variants

Similar to peptides, says Weatherby, growth hormone variants (AOD-9604) have the same effect as growth hormone, but are shaped slightly differently at molecular level, making them harder to detect.

“Rather than use growth hormone itself, you can use another one which has a very similar shape. It’s like a variation on growth hormone and it will do the same job.”

Professor Robert Weatherby from the Division of Research at Southern Cross University is going it a bit far I think when he says the same job, I would say similar job

eg AOD-9604 doesn't stimulate IGF-1 release where as hGH does, probably due to that part of the structure being absent.

 

[Barkly St End]

The wording of the WADA code is "similar chemical structure". Now I would argue that it would take a biochemical analysis to actually determine if AOD is a similar chemical structure to hGH, not a general assessment from someone with a lay understanding of biochem, just in the same way people argue the legalities of the wording of the code on here. If that is indeed the case then it is not a general test as BSE alludes to, but rather a proper analysis.

Now you can argue that a lawyer would have a field day on this but I would argue that they would not be successful due to the nature of the work that ASADA and WADA do, the experimental environment in which they operate and the overarching international agreement that underpins their code and the spirit in which that agreement was reached.

What the issue appears to be here is onus. In my opinion, the onus should be on the person wanting to use a new substance on athletes to show that it is not a PED, not on ASADA/WADA to provide chemical analysis of each substance submitted under each and every request given that the resources required to do so would not be what anyone would consider reasonable for such organisations operating is such an environment. This then raises the argument of tightening regulations. But you know what, if certain organisations or individuals want to push the boundaries they should not be given any consideration under the code.

Interesting post.

In the first post you argue that it's too difficult for a lay person to conduct the test explicitly stated in S2.

But then in the last paragraph, you put the onus on the athlete to conduct the chemical analysis himself to know whether it's a PED or not.

 

[Barkly St End]

Bse has no arguable points.
He has been easily argued against. He just refuses to accept it and I can't do anything about that.
I have considerable knowledge in biochemistry too. His arguments are weak and would not stand up in a court as I have run them past a friend of mine who is a Supreme Court Judge.
So he can bleat all he likes. His arguments just won't get him anywhere!

Out of curiosity - how would your Supreme Court Judge know whether the test in S2 is met or not?

Does he have biochemistry as a second discipline?

Your Supreme Court Judge is effectively saying you can ignore the wording in both S0 and S2, which is an odd conclusion for a Supreme Court Judge to reach.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11152298

"The cyclic region of AOD in water/dimethylsulfoxide adopts type I beta-turns at residues Ser8-Val9-Glu10-Gly11 and Ser12-Cys13-Gly14-Phe15, each preceded by loop-like structures. Comparison of the conformation of this peptide with residues 177-191 in the native hGH protein X-ray crystal structure indicates that the synthetic peptide retains some structural similarity to the intact protein" (i'd say that goes beyond balance of probabilities that its structurally similar wouldn't you?)

PS Can't believe I'm looking up pubmed while at work for Big Footy post. Still nice to look at science papers rather than contracts etc

I can't believe you think that just because it is similar to a mere 15 amino acids of the 191 that hGH has, the whole drug is similar. Your understanding of biochemistry leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Major Colvin]

No it's not; it appears that the method of delivery and when it was delivered are all central to any defense Essendon is building.

Will that defense be successful? I don't know. Difference between me and the sheep that populate this board is I'm happy for a report to be released before assigning guilt.

Baaaaaaaaaa...........

Of course you are. Because you support the said club with overwhelming evidence piling up against it. And your club is already positioning itself to blame anyone else where guilt on its part may be found.

 

[bacon buster]

Lance Armstrong said:
"I don't have a feeling of guilt and I don't believe I've done anything wrong,"

that's fantastic, but let's keep on topic

 

[rumply]

Whoah - you've run my weak arguments past a Supreme Court Judge!

Bringing in the big guns!

Have you had the opportunity yet to run it past the full bench of the High Court?

Nah, he will have to wait for Friday drinks to do that

 

[Barkly St End]

I can't believe you think that just because it is similar to a mere 15 amino acids of the 191 that hGH has, the whole drug is similar. Your understanding of biochemistry leaves a lot to be desired.

Well, this is the test contained in S2:

....and other substances with similar chemical structure or similar biological effect(s).

A footballer needs to judge whether 15 out of 191 amino acids is or is not caught up by this test.

He needs to know this in case S2 addresses AOD, recalling that S0 is not, and cannot be applicable, if S2 addresses AOD.

Is it similar?

Might be, may not be - who the hell knows??

 

[Big Fozza]

how the hell is Fairfax media finding all this out? there's a lot of leakage happening here.

 

[Major Colvin]

that's fantastic, but let's keep on topic

Think the point made, which is relevant, is that generally everyone believes (publicly) they are in the right until they are found to be in the wrong.

For EFC though, it gone past that to, 'we may be in the wrong but we're not responsible'

 

[bacon buster]

Think the point made, which is relevant, is that generally everyone believes (publicly) they are in the right until they are found to be in the wrong.

For EFC though, it gone past that to, 'we may be in the wrong but we're not responsible'

it's not relevant at all what Lance Armstrong said about his issues.

whether or not there is guilt/no guilt, i honestly believe the plays believe they have done nothing wrong.

 

[GarnerSmash]

Interesting post.

In the first post you argue that it's too difficult for a lay person to conduct the test explicitly stated in S2.

But then in the last paragraph, you put the onus on the athlete to conduct the chemical analysis himself to know whether it's a PED or not.

No, I argue that it is up to the person who wishes to use the substance to provide rationale to ASADA/WADA at point of contact as to why the substance should be considered usable. If they then ahve to wait for an ASADA ruling or test, then so be it. The onus here is to prevent cowboys jabbing athletes with random shit. If it takes time for ASADA/WADA to check a substance than so be it.

In this case the question seems to have been, is AOD9406 a prohibited substance under S2. The answer to that is not explicitly, but without proper testing and analysis it is difficult to tell. Anyone acting in good faith will not take this as an all clear to use it.

Now WADA have said that it is not covered by S2, supporting the idea that 15 out of 191 amino acids is not chemically similar enough, so if someone went ahead and used it, tough shit.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Hahaha.
Your Honor,
I thought that I thought that a 15 amino acid peptide was similar to a 191 amino acid one!

Is that ok?

My legal representative, BSE, TOLD ME IT WAS!

HAHAHA!

 

[Big Fozza]

Personally I think the information has been known all along by Baker and MacKenzie (and Wilson). They have milked this story to perfection (from a newspaper point of view), giving Essendon and Hird just enough rope to slowly hang themselves.

I think this is why Wilson has been so forthright, because she knew which cards were going to be dealt all along.

Essendon are really stuffed.

i think you might be right. they just keep milking this everyday. we keep talking about it and they keep selling papers and getting their names out there.

Fairfax Media can also reveal that ASADA has uncovered a bill sent to Essendon in late 2012 by South Yarra hyperbaric chamber clinic owner Mal Hooper, who was working with Mr Dank to treat players. The bill for more than $60,000 included $2800 for the use of unspecified ''amino acids''.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dons-told-drug-was-not-legal-20130730-2qxqq.html#ixzz2aaxF8Lov​

 

[Barkly St End]

Nah, he will have to wait for Friday drinks to do that

Ancient Tiger approaches his buddies in the judiciary during Friday happy hour. He runs my weak arguments past them:

I say ol' chap. There's this dastardly fellow on big footy, coming up with the most outrageous ideas on how to read the WADA code. He is quite out of his depth of course, nothing could be surer, he is dabbling in matters which are way, way beyond his low station in life. He's from Footscray, you see, lowly education, lowly upbringing, does not have the foggiest notion on how things are meant to work. I daresay he has never darkened the doorway of the Melbourne Club, except to shake his cans, beggar that he is. He's reading the English, French and Spanish versions of the WADA code, and listen to this ol' chap - he takes it quite literally. Have you ever heard anything so absurd in your life?! Say what!!

 

[Big Fozza]

it's not relevant at all what Lance Armstrong said about his issues.

whether or not there is guilt/no guilt, i honestly believe the plays believe they have done nothing wrong.

the players can believe whatever they like. And i feel bad for the players as i don't think any of them when out to cheat. but as professional athletes they should know to question what is being injected into them.

Why did Jobe not email ASADA and say; "Hi, I'm Jobe Watson and Essendon what to inject me with AOD, and ABC and XYZ. Can you please confirm that this is legal/not banned?". And then document/save that email. if he could produce some kind of proof that he did some due diligence himself then i would think that he has done nothing wrong.

i am very surprised that not one player questioned this at all. I hope they did and ASADA messed up, i hope they showed some care about what was being injected into them. Jobe even admitted it was a new "landscape" being injected that many times. Did he talk to his Dad and what did Tim say???

If they didn't do any due diligence and just trusted / took it on face value it was legal then they DID do something wrong, no matter what they believe. Because as per the clear and simple rules for professional athletes and the WADA code it is ultimately the responsibility of the player to know what is being injected into them.

 

[Percel]

Carne Asada

mmmmmmmmm............bbq......

 

[Graffy4242]

the players can believe whatever they like. And i feel bad for the players as i don't think any of them when out to cheat. but as professional athletes they should know to question what is being injected into them.

Why did Jobe not email ASADA and say; "Hi, I'm Jobe Watson and Essendon what to inject me with AOD, and ABC and XYZ. Can you please confirm that this is legal/not banned?". And then document/save that email. if he could produce some kind of proof that he did some due diligence himself then i would think that he has done nothing wrong.

i am very surprised that not one player questioned this at all. I hope they did and ASADA messed up, i hope they showed some care about what was being injected into them. Jobe even admitted it was a new "landscape" being injected that many times. Did he talk to his Dad and what did Tim say???

If they didn't do any due diligence and just trusted / took it on face value it was legal then they DID do something wrong, no matter what they believe. Because as per the clear and simple rules for professional athletes and the WADA code it is ultimately the responsibility of the player to know what is being injected into them.

He was too busy getting "BIGGER & STRONGER" as directed by his mates Hirdy, Bomber and the Weap. If you can't believe your mates who can you believe???

 

[Percel]

If that happens, I demand the Tigers sue someone!

There no more lawyers for hire in Victoria. Theyre climbing a hill

 

[Fuzzy Wuzzy Bear]

Tiny teddies taste good.

 

[LongBomb]

Fairfax Media can also reveal that ASADA has uncovered a bill sent to Essendon in late 2012 by South Yarra hyperbaric chamber clinic owner Mal Hooper, who was working with Mr Dank to treat players. The bill for more than $60,000 included $2800 for the use of unspecified ''amino acids''.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dons-told-drug-was-not-legal-20130730-2qxqq.html#ixzz2aaxF8Lov

Mal Hooper is an interesting guy for the Bombers to be doing business with.

Defrauded a vulnerable cerebral palsy sufferer for his own financial gain.
Top bloke.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/c...d-false-hope-from-hot-air-20111024-1mgd8.html

 

[PieBeast]

that's fantastic, but let's keep on topic

No problem, I'm all for discussing the fact Essendon players and supporters have been zombified.

 

[bacon buster]

you'd probably do better to focus your energies on your own team, but who am i to judge.