Lake gone for late first round pick

[yebiga]

No problem trading him but we did not make hawthorn sweat at all

We caved too early

Hawthorn bluffed us and I am sure they would have given us a bit more had we played a little tougher

what is done is done

 

[Proffessor]

There is no compensation for a player who walks as a free agent. (Which Lake would be now). We would have gotten nothing if he walked at the end of this season...

Goddard was a restricted agent.. There is a difference

I don't like that he left, however I can understand his reasons why. At least we got a trade out of it rather than nothing had we forced the hand. Maybe we didn't trade harder, but without knowing the discussion its a little difficult to presume what went on

I don't think there is a lot of value continually going over old ground, but for the sake of correctness,
the above statement about no compensation for unrestricted fee agents is not correct (or at the very least was certainly not correct at the time Lake was traded). You should check your facts before making such statements, Mike.

You should also try to resist the temptation to get caught up with meaningless posts like those from "Lucky Star". Seriously, is that the best you can produce?

 

[Proffessor]

Now you really are clutching at straws. Nobody is thinking the best option Dogs players have to win a flag is going to another club.

Don't kid yourself Timtam, Brian Lake clearly thought so even before he demonstrated it, and he wouldn't be alone in thinking so.
Read any of Bob Murphy's columns this year?

 

[timtamWB]

Don't kid yourself Timtam, Brian Lake clearly thought so even before he demonstrated it, and he wouldn't be alone in thinking so.
Read any of Bob Murphy's columns this year?

If he really thought that then he would have left years ago. Obviously when he left he knew we were rebuilding, and so he wanted a flag, and so he went to a team challenging for a flag. But that isn't because we're the Dogs, it's because we were at a rebuilding stage. If he was at the Saints, or Melbourne, he would've done the same thing.

I can't say that I have read them no. But I can tell you that in 2009 we were very close to a Grand Final, and I think we could've won that GF as well. But maybe that's just the hopeless Dogs fan in me.

 

[Proffessor]

If he really thought that then he would have left years ago. Obviously when he left he knew we were rebuilding, and so he wanted a flag, and so he went to a team challenging for a flag. But that isn't because we're the Dogs, it's because we were at a rebuilding stage. If he was at the Saints, or Melbourne, he would've done the same thing.

I can't say that I have read them no. But I can tell you that in 2009 we were very close to a Grand Final, and I think we could've won that GF as well. But maybe that's just the hopeless Dogs fan in me.

Who said that it was because we're the Dogs?
It's the recent direction that was/is the problem, and we are now some way off from seriously contending. Not because we lack talent, but because we lack the brains and the belief to have a serious attempt in the present. It's so much easier to take the soft option and hide behind the "planning for the future" excuse.

 

[timtamWB]

Who said that it was because we're the Dogs?
It's the recent direction that was/is the problem, and we are now some way off from seriously contending. Not because we lack talent, but because we lack the brains and the belief to have a serious attempt in the present. It's so much easier to take the soft option and hide behind the "planning for the future" excuse.

Do you really think that if we kept Lake this year, we were seriously in a place to contend for the premiership?

Would you give Hrovat back for Lake?

 

[Proffessor]

How many times does it have to be said that "We did not trade Lake for Hrovat"!?!?
I think we could/should have had them both.

We could have had Hawthorn's list this year and still not been a contender with our current coaching panel. McCartney would probably have started rebuilding, to alleviate any expectation of success and associated pressure.

It is clear that you are a believer in the "rebuilding" approach despite the consistent failure of cubs that have taken that path, but perhaps you should ask yourself how you would feel if you were an A grade professional footballer (without a premiership) with only a few seasons left in the game and a new coach came in and said your club was rebuilding?

 

[timtamWB]

How many times does it have to be said that "We did not trade Lake for Hrovat"!?!?
I think we could/should have had them both.

We could have had Hawthorn's list this year and still not been a contender with our current coaching panel. McCartney would probably have started rebuilding, to alleviate any expectation of success and associated pressure.

It is clear that you are a believer in the "rebuilding" approach despite the consistent failure of cubs that have taken that path, but perhaps you should ask yourself how you would feel if you were an A grade professional footballer (without a premiership) with only a few seasons left in the game and a new coach came in and said your club was rebuilding?

Do you think that with the list we had this year plus Lake that we could have won the premiership, if Clarkson was coaching us?

 

[Igloo]

Do you think that with the list we had this year plus Lake that we could have won the premiership, if Clarkson was coaching us?

There's really no point

 

[Some Idiot]

How many times does it have to be said that "We did not trade Lake for Hrovat"!?!?
I think we could/should have had them both.

We could have had Hawthorn's list this year and still not been a contender with our current coaching panel. McCartney would probably have started rebuilding, to alleviate any expectation of success and associated pressure.

It is clear that you are a believer in the "rebuilding" approach despite the consistent failure of cubs that have taken that path, but perhaps you should ask yourself how you would feel if you were an A grade professional footballer (without a premiership) with only a few seasons left in the game and a new coach came in and said your club was rebuilding?

Out of curiosity, what qualifies you to think that you know better than professional coaching staff?
Just genuinely curious here.
I feel like a lot of the things you say are based on a simplified observation of trends and patterns of variables which may or may not even be relevant rather than looking at some of the processes being put in place within the football club.

As for the Hrovat Lake trade, some people say Hrovat was a massive slider who could easily have been top 10 and some people say he could have slid even further so anything on him has to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[timtamWB]

There's really no point

I'm usually pretty good with trolls or negative people, but he just makes me so angry!

This needs a picture.

 

[Proffessor]

Do you think that with the list we had this year plus Lake that we could have won the premiership, if Clarkson was coaching us?

A better question would be, Where do I think we would be if Clarkson became coach at the end of Eades tenure? I think we would have been more likely to be in the top four than in the bottom four.

Have you asked yourself my question?

 

[timtamWB]

A better question would be, Where do I think we would be if Clarkson became coach at the end of Eades tenure? I think we would have been more likely to be in the top four than in the bottom four.

Have you asked yourself my question?

I think that we still would have gone down the ladder. Would we have slid so far? Probably not. But I don't think we would be contending.

Obviously we have very different views of the list that Macca inherited, I personally think he's done extremely well in rejuvenating our list, and i'm confident we're heading in the right direction. If you don't believe that then that's just like, your opinion man, but i'm not going to tell you you're wrong. But I think the fact that you're dodging my question means that you agree with me on some level.

Different strokes for different folks. I enjoyed watching the footy we played at the end of the year, and am confident that we can reproduce it and that it will lead us to a GF. And i'm going to be there supporting the club that I love every step of the way.

 

[Igloo]

I'm usually pretty good with trolls or negative people, but he just makes me so angry!

This needs a picture.

 

[immortalmike]

A better question would be, Where do I think we would be if Clarkson became coach at the end of Eades tenure? I think we would have been more likely to be in the top four than in the bottom four.

Have you asked yourself my question?

Yes because Clarkson has never been through a period of rebuilding a list...
Oh wait...

 

[Proffessor]

I think that we still would have gone down the ladder. Would we have slid so far? Probably not. But I don't think we would be contending.

Obviously we have very different views of the list that Macca inherited, I personally think he's done extremely well in rejuvenating our list, and i'm confident we're heading in the right direction. If you don't believe that then that's just like, your opinion man, but i'm not going to tell you you're wrong. But I think the fact that you're dodging my question means that you agree with me on some level.

Different strokes for different folks. I enjoyed watching the footy we played at the end of the year, and am confident that we can reproduce it and that it will lead us to a GF. And i'm going to be there supporting the club that I love every step of the way.

I meant the question from my earlier post.
"how you would feel if you were an A grade professional footballer (without a premiership) with only a few seasons left in the game and a new coach came in and said your club was rebuilding?"

As to your earlier question, the reason that I suggested the change is that it was a rhetorical question rather than a meaningful one. Clarkson wouldn't have constructed such an unbalanced (in terms of playing attributes, not age) list, however in the hypothetical event that he ended up coaching that list, I think that whilst we would have been very unlikely to have won the flag, we would certainly have finished higher than 15th.

 

[_M_16_]

I'm curious Proffessor, why do you feel we would have still been more top four material under a different coach? Considering a majority of the list that carried us to those Preliminary Finals had retired or we're no longer at their best? The heavy losses were already coming in during Eade's final season and the fall starting.

What we should have done differently? I mean Eade was a good coach and a great tactician. But he was a terrible at list management. Already a higher percentage of players drafted the past two seasons show more promise than Eades years combined. Eade and his staff wasted many picks on average players, including picking up a third round rated player with a first round pick. Is it really Maccas fault he picked up a list of soft, one way runners, and lack of key position prospects? How would have Clarkson turned the list around quicker?

You say you don't believe in rebuilds or feel they are not necessary. Yet Clarkson, Woosha, Thompson all went under some form of a rebuild. In fact unlike Eade, and some other clubs. Geelong and Hawthorn have both had a long term goal, a great recruiting strategy, getting game times into youngsters, and player development. And there is a reason both teams are consider to have the deepest lists, with even their respective VFL squads dominating. If we were not to 'rebuild' What do you think would have been a better strategy, way to go about it? Even in the NFL, the teams that have dominated for the past decade year in and year out, all started from the bottom, stuck to the draft, cut dead weight, and challenge for years, unlike teams that took the alternative.

And lastly, it seems you had no faith in Macca almost as soon as he walked into the door. You cannot judge a coach on his first season, which is always going to be difficult. Statistically we have moved up in many categories this season. Macca also worked along side Thompson and Hinkley, as they developed the best modern day football team every seen. What is honestly your lack of faith in him either? Remember, I could name a few coaches that were called to be sacked early in their tenure, yet ended up wining the flag. Is it because a new coach doesn't have a clue what he is doing? (Head coach is just a tag, he saw the exact same teachings being an assistant) And the fact the combined over the last two decades, new coaches have a higher winning percentage, and won more flags, than experienced coaches combined.

I am in no way attacking or anything, and I respect everyones opinions, even I have my doubts at time. I have heard your views, I am just wondering in depth why you think those views, things to back up how you came to them, and things you think could be different, and why you think they would?

 

[_Mike_]

You should check your facts before making such statements, Mike.

Lake had played 10 seasons/years at the WB - 2002-2012. He was out of contract at the end of this year

A player has served ten or more seasons of AFL football at one club, has already come out of contract once in the period after March 1 in his eighth season, and is now out of contract. (Unrestricted Free Agent)

• The player is eligible to field offers from all rival clubs.
• If he wishes to change clubs, the player must decide on the best offer of his choice from one rival club.
• His club does NOT have the right to match the presented offer, and the player can move AUTOMATICALLY to the new club of his choice.
• His original club will receive a compensation pick for the loss of the player, on an AFL-determined formula to apply where clubs lose more free agents than they gain in any single transfer period.

Do you think that the AFL was going to give us a better pick than "20 something" after we got bent over on the Ward compensation?

You insist on arguing a point which is moot now.. Its done, its over, time to move...

A better question would be, Where do I think we would be if Clarkson became coach at the end of Eades tenure? I think we would have been more likely to be in the top four than in the bottom four.

Have you asked yourself my question?

If you think we're a possibility of top 4 material with our list over the last 2 seasons (2012 & 2013) , I dont know which club you've been watching recently.

Newsflash, we're not the same team that we were in 2008/2009/2010

 

[Mutt]

Trading Lake out when we did was the best available option for us.

Lake did not want to play the role the coach had asked of him, despite being the highest paid player in the history of our club. Lake was also wanting to go to Hawthorn anyway - they had targeted him and approached his management long before the trade was consummated. It was inevitable he would leave - if we once again caved in to his demands, we would have had Lake for the 2013 season only.

Hawthorn themselves traded away Croad to help fast track their rebuild almost ten years ago. Some short-sighted Hawthorn fans were up in arms at the time but the club has ultimately been proven to have made the correct call. So it will be with Lake.

 

[Butane]

It would almost be more accurate to say it was Lake for Stevens not Lake for Hrovat. Still can't believe we threw in pick 27 and Lake!

What the hell was wrong with just Lake for pick 21? Then it really would have been Lake for Hrovat and we still would have been able to hold on to our pick 27. Was a pretty good draft still in the 20's last year.

Well played though Hawthorn, they knew we were there for the fisting.

 

[maddog37]

Brian's manager worked with Hawthorn to orchestrate the move which means he was working against us. We were on a hiding to nothing.


Close thread as its been done to death.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

A better question would be, Where do I think we would be if Clarkson became coach at the end of Eades tenure? I think we would have been more likely to be in the top four than in the bottom four.

Have you asked yourself my question?

Do you shift goal posts for a living?

If you don't you should consider a change of proffession. You're very good at it.

 

[_Mike_]

What the hell was wrong with just Lake for pick 21.

If there's one thing that I have been annoyed with, its how we've handled trades. 21 for Lake would have been more than enough.. But like the Ward shafting on the comp pick and how we've previously handled trades, our past performance on trade negotiations have not been good.

Someone inside the Club management must be aware of this or we're going to continue with these fundamental trade errors

 

[_Mike_]

Do you shift goal posts for a living?

If you don't you should consider a change of proffession. You're very good at it.

According to the line of logic in question, we'd be adding another prelim failure to our repertoire and some would be complacent enough

 

[Proffessor]

Lake had played 10 seasons/years at the WB - 2002-2012. He was out of contract at the end of this year

A player has served ten or more seasons of AFL football at one club, has already come out of contract once in the period after March 1 in his eighth season, and is now out of contract. (Unrestricted Free Agent)

• The player is eligible to field offers from all rival clubs.
• If he wishes to change clubs, the player must decide on the best offer of his choice from one rival club.
• His club does NOT have the right to match the presented offer, and the player can move AUTOMATICALLY to the new club of his choice.
• His original club will receive a compensation pick for the loss of the player, on an AFL-determined formula to apply where clubs lose more free agents than they gain in any single transfer period.

Like I said. The earlier comment about no compensation was not correct.
We don't know the formula so we don't know what the compensation could have been, but there would have been something.

It's all hypothetical now, what's done is done.