Mega Thread The Western Bulldogs - The Sack Macca saga

[Mofra]

223 pages and we still don't have any gameplan specifics from people who want to "sack Macca now" justifying their position.

Obviously the jury is out, and we have some serious list issues - I don't believe this instantly qualifies as a catastrophic coaching failure that requires sacking.

 

[cleveland]

Didnt like the gameplan on sunday.

We won the contest handballed it around then went long and direct to the forward line where freo out numbered us and ran the ball out with ease to a open forward line.

 

[doggies ftw]

54 games 16 wins 38 losses....lets sign him up long term

Theres only one reason he was given a 3 year contract. All it means is that the board is backing him in to let him do it his way. He won't be under pressure from the media, he wont start to try to win games at all costs over development, he won't trade for mature age spuds to try to save himself. Its called stability. He's got 3 years to do it all exactly the way he wants it, and no doubt the board will be looking for big improvements by 2016. Its really quite simple to understand.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Besides, it's fun to come here from time to time even if it doesn't seem like it.

It's kind of like our very own Bay 13

 

[JJHunter]

Theres only one reason he was given a 3 year contract. All it means is that the board is backing him in to let him do it his way. He won't be under pressure from the media, he wont start to try to win games at all costs over development, he won't trade for mature age spuds to try to save himself. Its called stability. He's got 3 years to do it all exactly the way he wants it, and no doubt the board will be looking for big improvements by 2016. Its really quite simple to understand.

Stability is one thing but there has to be logic to it.
From the outset - Im not a sack Macca now fan - but im not a macca fan and think he still has a lot to prove.
But we are stuck with him for 2 further years so I see no point in pushing a sack him philosophy.

I was always scratching my head though about the contract extension at the end of last year.
That is a point I am happy to debate.

You say its main reason was stability - thats about the only thing it could have been.
Its not like other teams needed senior coaches and would poach him if left uncontracted for 2015 this year.
The financial risk of the extension is another factor given we can ill afford to pay him out if it does go badly and secondly if it goes badly membership numbers and attendances will go down. And as we have seen both of these things have been badly affected by the way we are.
Have you thought about the affects of the extension - that it may have created an environment of comfortability ??
Macca doesnt have to worry about his job, his cats buddies dont have to worry about their jobs.

All those factors far out weigh the stability notion.
And why 2 years - 1 year would have given us stability and achieved what you say the 2 years did.
You dont just employ someone for stability - that just comes as part of a good employment and good working environment.

Facts are {IMO} we will win less games this year than we did last year - with a better fixture and a better run of injuries. Most would consider that backwards.
Off field our crowds are well down and a good portion of the supporter base is in a state of discontent with where we are at.
Membership may or may not be up I am not sure - but I guarantee the rate of growth in our membership would be the second worst in the comp behind Brisbane.

You say stability stops him from coming under pressure from the media ! Maybe thats a good thing.
Id much rather than than being ignored.

But that doesn't happen because - Fact is we are an irrlevant club - whether you like it or not - whether I like it or not.
I have heard Caro, and Barrett say it - good or bad the general thought is no one cares about us.
We have escaped scrutiny not because we dont deserve it but because we have become an irrelevant club in the last 3 years under Macca.

So should have he been extended last year - HELL NO !

 

[Doggies_13]

The negativity lately really astounds me just a couple of things to add and firstly I am not completely sold on Macca there are a few areas i don't like what i see but i can also see what he is implementing and developing.

Comparing Macca to Neeld and talking about sacking him and the AFL bailing us out. Macca will not be sacked this season was extended for two years in the off season and if we asked the AFL for a bail out they would laugh, Neeld wasn't given an extension his team was continually flogged and showed no signs of being anything bar a basket case and the team had been down for a long period, he had lost the board and the players. The end of next season we could possibly sack him and ask for assistant any sooner is laughable.

The things i see with Macca i believe he is building a very good and even list that just needs further time to develop and more games into the younger guys, that in the future we won't have the big age gaps in our list and the majority of our team will all hit their peak at the same time, he is constant with his message and has brought in some very good players as specialist coaches, He has a lot of respect from the football community.

My negatives in regard to Macca are is complete lack of emotion during games and at post game press conferences sometimes you want to see some emotion and know that the person in charge is passionate and has a lot invested in the team, selection bemuses me most weeks the way some players are recalled to the side after one average game back in the 2's as other guys consistently perform to no avail. Some player work no where near hard enough defensively yet are retained in the side we need to set a standard for work rate and anyone not performing to that standard be dropped, I think Hunter is an outstanding talent but his work rate has been no where near up to standard and should have been dropped a game or two into the season.

I think we have been up against a lot so far this season yes every team has injuries but some teams can handle them better than others, it isn't the quantity of the injures but who the injuries have been to and we are not at a point in our development to cover for those injuries to key personnel, i believe we will show a lot more in the second half of the season. I also think as much as Gia as had some good performances this season he has gone one season too many and is keeping us from developing an extra younger player each week

The negativity of some people amazes me if we get beaten by a team we are pathetic and that team is average if we beat a team we only won because that team is no good, I just don't understand that out look if you support or love a club you should get pleasure out of a win not look for a new negative.

 

[fargy]

Facts are we will win less games this year than we did last year - with a better fixture and a better run of injuries. Most would consider that backwards.
!

How is that a fact? Are you a time traveller? Last year at this stage everyone was saying we would struggle to have 5 wins for the year. We had 8. Who is to say we won't have a heap of injuries from here on in, or again have you seen the future? I would say in two of the games we were capable of winning our injuries were significant, if not great in number, but in structure. But my point isn't to debate your points regarding whether we will win more games or injuries etc, it's that you think your opinion and predictions on the future are facts.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Well I certainly don't want to see him ranting in the coaches' box, thanks, and giving media/oppo fans a chance to s****** like they/we do at Malthouse and others throwing phones. It doesn't mean he doesn't care deeply. We know he only gets angry over lack of effort and failure to play to instructions (players have said so) and he does that behind closed doors. I don't have to see that side of him to know that he IS passionate about the game, the club, the team and the non-negotiables he has put in place. When he speaks, as in the latest members' vid, you can feel the empathy that he has with the players, and yes, with the supporters.

Wow, you say Hunter should have been dropped earlier in the season but then you hear people (not sure if you) say that the young players don't get enough games to establish themselves before being dropped. I really think the selection policy is based a lot around discipline (as well as who is not injured and available). Can't please everyone.

However, I agree with most of the rest of your post Doggies_13 .

 

[Wilfork]

The negativity lately really astounds me just a couple of things to add and firstly I am not completely sold on Macca there are a few areas i don't like what i see but i can also see what he is implementing and developing.

Comparing Macca to Neeld and talking about sacking him and the AFL bailing us out. Macca will not be sacked this season was extended for two years in the off season and if we asked the AFL for a bail out they would laugh, Neeld wasn't given an extension his team was continually flogged and showed no signs of being anything bar a basket case and the team had been down for a long period, he had lost the board and the players. The end of next season we could possibly sack him and ask for assistant any sooner is laughable.

The things i see with Macca i believe he is building a very good and even list that just needs further time to develop and more games into the younger guys, that in the future we won't have the big age gaps in our list and the majority of our team will all hit their peak at the same time, he is constant with his message and has brought in some very good players as specialist coaches, He has a lot of respect from the football community.

My negatives in regard to Macca are is complete lack of emotion during games and at post game press conferences sometimes you want to see some emotion and know that the person in charge is passionate and has a lot invested in the team, selection bemuses me most weeks the way some players are recalled to the side after one average game back in the 2's as other guys consistently perform to no avail. Some player work no where near hard enough defensively yet are retained in the side we need to set a standard for work rate and anyone not performing to that standard be dropped, I think Hunter is an outstanding talent but his work rate has been no where near up to standard and should have been dropped a game or two into the season.

I think we have been up against a lot so far this season yes every team has injuries but some teams can handle them better than others, it isn't the quantity of the injures but who the injuries have been to and we are not at a point in our development to cover for those injuries to key personnel, i believe we will show a lot more in the second half of the season. I also think as much as Gia as had some good performances this season he has gone one season too many and is keeping us from developing an extra younger player each week

The negativity of some people amazes me if we get beaten by a team we are pathetic and that team is average if we beat a team we only won because that team is no good, I just don't understand that out look if you support or love a club you should get pleasure out of a win not look for a new negative.

I'll reply to the parts in bold.

• There is plenty of evidence to suggest the list is very much uneven. Lack of quality or even effective forwards, a big gaping hole waiting to open the second Morris retires, questions marks over the overall skill of the list (though, some players are outstanding of course).
• I'm not fussed with the lack of emotion. I'm more concerned with the vague, fluffy responses he gives. Don't treat your supporters like idiots - give us an explanation of why we failed.
• We haven't beaten anyone good yet and Freo is the first really good team we've faced. The teams we've lost against (maybe apart from the Suns, who have also beaten no one of merit) are mediocre and based on our form late last year, we should've been able to beat (Adelaide, Essendon, Carlton, etc.). Let's see what happens after this week.

 

[doggies ftw]

Stability is one thing but there has to be logic to it.
From the outset - Im not a sack Macca now fan - but im not a macca fan and think he still has a lot to prove.
But we are stuck with him for 2 further years so I see no point in pushing a sack him philosophy.

I was always scratching my head though about the contract extension at the end of last year.
That is a point I am happy to debate.

You say its main reason was stability - thats about the only thing it could have been.
Its not like other teams needed senior coaches and would poach him if left uncontracted for 2015 this year.
The financial risk of the extension is another factor given we can ill afford to pay him out if it does go badly and secondly if it goes badly membership numbers and attendances will go down. And as we have seen both of these things have been badly affected by the way we are.
Have you thought about the affects of the extension - that it may have created an environment of comfortability ??
Macca doesnt have to worry about his job, his cats buddies dont have to worry about their jobs.

All those factors far out weigh the stability notion.
And why 2 years - 1 year would have given us stability and achieved what you say the 2 years did.
You dont just employ someone for stability - that just comes as part of a good employment and good working environment.

Facts are we will win less games this year than we did last year - with a better fixture and a better run of injuries. Most would consider that backwards.
Off field our crowds are well down and a good portion of the supporter base is in a state of discontent with where we are at.
Membership may or may not be up I am not sure - but I guarantee the rate of growth in our membership would be the second worst in the comp behind Brisbane.

You say stability stops him from coming under pressure from the media ! Maybe thats a good thing.
Id much rather than than being ignored.

But that doesn't happen because - Fact is we are an irrlevant club - whether you like it or not - whether I like it or not.
I have heard Caro, and Barrett say it - good or bad the general thought is no one cares about us.
We have escaped scrutiny not because we dont deserve it but because we have become an irrelevant club in the last 3 years under Macca.

So should have he been extended last year - HELL NO !

With the way Maccas going about it, I honestly don't think anything can go that terribly bad that we will be so badly off after his 3 years is up. The way I see it is worst case scenario in 2016 we haven't improved as much as we like and look in a different direction, but we now have a big list of very good kids hitting that 23-24 year old age, with 70-100 games experience, all being well drilled in non negotiables like defence and contested ball. We've got kids knocking down the door at our own VFL team which will only get better and better for the club after a few more years. Sure Macca might not be the guy that takes us to the finals (I reckon he probably will be personally) but no one can argue with the way he's going about it, he's building a very good core base on and off the field that will hold us in good stead for years.

I can sort of see your point about the coaches maybe getting comfortable, but I don't believe thats the case. Why would anyone get comfortable with finishing 15th? Besides its only 3 years (and its not like Macca would be on huge dollars), get comfortable with finishing 15th and you'll probably never coach again at AFL level and be out of a job. I just cannot see any reason that would happen IMO.

Wow Caro and Barrett said we're irrelevant, I might as well neck my self. I personally do not give a flying **** what those two think of us. Seriously sick of this irrelevant bullshit, am I the only one that logs onto bigfooty and reads articles about the dogs almost every day? Sure we fly under the radar at the moment, like many many people have said theres not a whole heap to talk about us because we win the games were supposed to win, lose the ones were supposed to lose and are pretty much just par with where we should be. You can't possibly tell me you'd rather the media vultures circle around our team kicking us while were down because hey at least were not irrelevant?! That can only do fantastic things for the club

3 years isn't a huge amount of time. It gives him enough time to be comfortable with his approach and not stress too much about losing his job (making him look for easy wins that don't really help us long term) but its also short enough that he has to actually show us in that time where we're going. The board are giving him a chance here, they are giving him more funding than any other dogs coach has ever had, and they are giving him some time to work with. No doubt they will want some reward for it come 2016 so lets just wait and see hey?

 

[Snake Livermore]

Macca got the contract extension so that he would keep coaching for the long term plan, which is the direction the board has endorsed, rather than coach for results this year. This gives him the freedom to:
- play young players who aren't ready to give them a taste
- play players out of position for their development
- drop players who might be best 22 but don't display the right behaviours
- guide list management for future tilt rather than quick fix solutions
etc etc etc

Of course he could do all this without a contract extension, but he's human. Surely it's obvious and logical that if the board has endorsed a certain vision and person to carry out that vision, they should give him a contract that allows him to do this with the minimum external pressures to deviate from the plan. Anything different would be poor governance.

It is obvious that even still, the pressure is coming to bear, not just on Macca but on the club. I think his video message to the members this week was really revealing, he went to a lot of lengths to explain where we are at with performance. Interestingly, also said how disappointing it is to have all that effort and no reward, and so he's really looking forward to this week. So if we lose to Brisbane it will get interesting...

Personally I think we are at a tipping point in performance. We're about where we were (please note whoever was correcting my their's last week!) last year, getting a lot right, and just need that extra 5% to pile on the goals and win games. I think we'll upset a couple of teams in the run home, and I think importantly this year our defense will be much better. Last year at the end of the season we scored a lot, but let our defense completely drop by the wayside. Not this season I don't think (hope).

 

[doggies ftw]

• I'm not fussed with the lack of emotion. I'm more concerned with the vague, fluffy responses he gives. Don't treat your supporters like idiots - give us an explanation of why we failed.

I hate this comment. People seriously just hear what they want to hear. Pretty much every week we get an explanation of why we failed, what we need to do better, etc. But apparently its just too cliche for most people...

 

[Wilfork]

I hate this comment. People seriously just hear what they want to hear. Pretty much every week we get an explanation of why we failed, what we need to do better, etc. But apparently its just too cliche for most people...

Let's have a quick look at a pearler from this week.

"We're a work in progress. There's a part of our offensive play that is getting better inch-by-inch and will make us a little more dangerous."

Yes, what's getting better? Our forward line functionality looks to have regressed dramatically. It's fluffy bullshit.

 

[doggies ftw]

Yes, what's getting better? Our forward line functionality looks to have regressed dramatically. It's fluffy bullshit.

Does it though? Its been pretty makeshift at times, and they didn't have it easy on the weekend against the best defensive side in the comp, getting some pretty poor delivery. Though most of this year it has been pretty effective, considering we weren't getting many inside 50s and the ones we were getting weren't great, I think you'll find, and the stats will back up, we were scoring from a high percentage of them. Accuracy has been a bit disappointing at times no doubt. Lately when our midfield has picked up a bit more we haven't even had our best forwards on the park which is a bit annoying. We really just need to get all parts of our game functioning at once. Sure Macca can be pretty vanilla in his responses but he usually says the areas which need work, etc and I rarely disagree with anything he says.

 

[House_of_Dahl]

Let's have a quick look at a pearler from this week.

"We're a work in progress. There's a part of our offensive play that is getting better inch-by-inch and will make us a little more dangerous."

Yes, what's getting better? Our forward line functionality looks to have regressed dramatically. It's fluffy bullshit.

Maybe that we smashed Freo for inside 50's. Yes we didn't convert enough, but that is part of our offensive play that inched better?

 

[_Mike_]

The reasonable understanding from most is that our forward line is dysfunctional at present. We've a few players struggling to make impact whilst we're not exactly short on talls. Unfortunately Campbell, Cordy and Jones aren't progressing to the speed which we would like to see and Grant (who is not a KPF) has been out all year so far.

Its a painful curve at the moment and I would be concerned if the club doesnt take steps to remedy that situation for the long run at the end of the year.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Does it though? Its been pretty makeshift at times, and they didn't have it easy on the weekend against the best defensive side in the comp, getting some pretty poor delivery. Though most of this year it has been pretty effective, considering we weren't getting many inside 50s and the ones we were getting weren't great, I think you'll find, and the stats will back up, we were scoring from a high percentage of them. Accuracy has been a bit disappointing at times no doubt. Lately when our midfield has picked up a bit more we haven't even had our best forwards on the park which is a bit annoying. We really just need to get all parts of our game functioning at once. Sure Macca can be pretty vanilla in his responses but he usually says the areas which need work, etc and I rarely disagree with anything he says.

Also he never names names in reviews or interviews, or only when specifically asked, and he doesn't put players in the gun publicly by criticizing particular blokes missing goals or kicking poorly, etc. That might seem vanilla to some who want PASSION, but the players can be confident that the coach is there for them, and won't dump on them in the media. Quickest way to lose them, ask Neeld.

 

[1961grandfinal]

Heard 4 callers on SEN programmes today all questioning this year's performances. All of the so called experts disagreed entirely, basically said you are where we thought you would be, Coach is on the right path but you need to win 3-4 games in the remainder of the season.

 

[cammo78]

we should've been able to beat (Adelaide, Essendon, Carlton, etc.). Let's see what happens after this week.

We SHOULD have beaten these sides, not should have been ABLE to. You could probably add Norf to that list.

Those losses weren't the coach's fault - they were purely and simply players not taking their opportunities to win games they had there to put to bed.

We win those three - we're sitting 6-4 and in the eight right now...add Norf, it's 7-3 and top four.

Point is - we're not that far off. Our forward line's been deplorable but the bones are there and when it all clicks, I'd expect a pretty sharp upward trajectory.

 

[paulveed]

Yes, no doubt we have had injury and form issues with our forwards. Delivery into the F50 has at times been significantly less than
even adequate.
For whatever reason our points to goal ratio has at best been poor most of the time.
But none of that explains going in week in and week out with an unbalanced forward structure. That is a match committee issue,
rather than a player issue.
No matter who is injured or suspended, I would rather see a well structured front 6 than just the six most in form players, or players
who have earned a chance down in the resies, regardless of what that does to structures.
We need two talls, two front and square goal sneaks, and two mid sized players.
They also need some consistency of selection, and tasks/roles.

If a player is struggling with form, be patient for some weeks, as they got there because their form previously had been ok.
If they are to be dropped back, replace them with someone who can actually fill that particular role, not just the most inform
guy playing in the Footscray side.
And for crying out loud please stop throwing kids all over the park. Sure try them in different roles to make them more adaptable,
but wait until they have got one role down pat before expecting them to learn another one. Moving a player from one role where they are
struggling for form to another they may have never played just plain does not work.

For example, Fletch R. Make him either a forward or a back for 12 months. Stringer, same thing. Experienced guys like Murph, Coons
Williams and Higgins, by all means shift them around to fill needs, and for matchups. But don't expect first and second year players to
be able to do the same thing. Football at AFL level is a whole new ball game for kids new to this level. We accept that they may take years
to develop, then make it even harder for them by throwing them all over the park while they are trying to learn to adapt to AFL level footy.

 

[Doggies_13]

Well I certainly don't want to see him ranting in the coaches' box, thanks, and giving media/oppo fans a chance to s****** like they/we do at Malthouse and others throwing phones. It doesn't mean he doesn't care deeply. We know he only gets angry over lack of effort and failure to play to instructions (players have said so) and he does that behind closed doors. I don't have to see that side of him to know that he IS passionate about the game, the club, the team and the non-negotiables he has put in place. When he speaks, as in the latest members' vid, you can feel the empathy that he has with the players, and yes, with the supporters.

Wow, you say Hunter should have been dropped earlier in the season but then you hear people (not sure if you) say that the young players don't get enough games to establish themselves before being dropped. I really think the selection policy is based a lot around discipline (as well as who is not injured and available). Can't please everyone.

However, I agree with most of the rest of your post Doggies_13 .

I don't mean smashing phones or giving it to the media i don' want to see that either but wouldn't mind seeing some frustration when we commit similar errors or even turning to an assistant and telling them to fix up there area of the ground.

I want young players given a chance as much as anyone and developed and given time even if they have a few down weeks but one this must be evident when they play and that is work rate and especially defensive work rate have to be non-negotiable if you don't bring it you don't play no matter age or experience as it's one thing even if your having a bad game you can still work hard and chase and tackle, close down space etc.

 

[Doggies_13]

I'll reply to the parts in bold.

• There is plenty of evidence to suggest the list is very much uneven. Lack of quality or even effective forwards, a big gaping hole waiting to open the second Morris retires, questions marks over the overall skill of the list (though, some players are outstanding of course).
• I'm not fussed with the lack of emotion. I'm more concerned with the vague, fluffy responses he gives. Don't treat your supporters like idiots - give us an explanation of why we failed.
• We haven't beaten anyone good yet and Freo is the first really good team we've faced. The teams we've lost against (maybe apart from the Suns, who have also beaten no one of merit) are mediocre and based on our form late last year, we should've been able to beat (Adelaide, Essendon, Carlton, etc.). Let's see what happens after this week.

Should have explained it better meant he is building a list that is very even in age and in depth as in players at the same level or developing at the same level, yes we still have some positional holes but can't see us having a huge lack of players in the 24-27 age bracket once this new group start reaching that age.

I think he is pretty honest in the post match and talks about the process and and areas we need to get better in

Melbourne are no longer easy beats, richmond are having a bad year so yes average opposition, yes on our form and their form last year we probably should have beaten essendon adelaide and carlton but all have made additions compared to the team they were last year and we faced two of them when we had the most of our key personnel out had we had grant roughie morris in in those games i would be taking those losses more seriously

 

[Dangerous54]

I am prepared to be patient and realise the coaches of our club have far more football experience than I ... My view on the coach is that if we enter 2017 without having played finals under Brenton or whatever his name is we will look back on his tenure and say "eff me that guy talked a LOT of shite".

 

[cammo78]

I am prepared to be patient and realise the coaches of our club have far more football experience than I ... My view on the coach is that if we enter 2017 without having played finals under Brenton or whatever his name is we will look back on his tenure and say "eff me that guy talked a LOT of shite".

I think even the most pessimistic of us would expect finals before then.

2016 is my limit, at this point. Next year we must be thereabouts.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

I am prepared to be patient and realise the coaches of our club have far more football experience than I ... My view on the coach is that if we enter 2017 without having played finals under Brenton or whatever his name is we will look back on his tenure and say "eff me that guy talked a LOT of shite".

Brendan. I'm guessing you don't know a whole lot of anything else about the coach or his strategy, other than he's not winning.