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List Mgmt. 2014 Draft Discussion Part II

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bigstyletiger said:
Does anyone remember the pillars of recruiting the club came out and spoke about a few years ago. I googled it and found a quote where Dimma summarised it as good kicks and good character. From memory it was

- good kick
- good character
- competitive
- and I think contested ball winning ability may have been in there

At any rate I thought it might put our discussion re speed into perspective. I don't believe Dimma doesn't rate speed (i think from his discussion about the importance of having Deledio in the side that was clear) I just think he rates having the above four pillars as being more important.
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In the last few years (as already mentioned) the quick, skilled, ball winning players with good characters have already been picked. This means that we have had to pick guys that have a selection of these characteristics but not all. And our club favours ball winning, skills and character over athleticism. But, we do need more speed IMHO. I expect us to pick fast guys more often nowadays. But it is a balance. If you can find players that can get the ball, and use it to our advantage, deal with being a top grade AFL player, and like the hard tough challenging times then you will tend to win games. Speed just adds to that.

But I'd take 5 Deledios any day - just that there aren't 5 Lids around for us. Breed young man breed.
 
Just one more Deledio and I'd be pretty happy Dr Tigris. One on the half back flank and one on the half forward flank. When we are playing poorly we are just so stagnant coming out of the back line with not enough players capable of creating some havoc by breaking the lines or pulling the trigger on a pin point zone slicing kick.

Also pretty ordinary winning the ball in the middle when we are off the boil but I'd be backing Conca, Vlastuin and Miles to make some inroads in this department next year.

I'd be pretty happy with one of Pickett, Laverde, Weller or Ahern with our first pick for a touch of pace. Not sure which one I prefer yet though. Draft combine will be interesting.
 
bigstyletiger said:
Just one more Deledio and I'd be pretty happy Dr Tigris. One on the half back flank and one on the half forward flank. When we are playing poorly we are just so stagnant coming out of the back line with not enough players capable of creating some havoc by breaking the lines or pulling the trigger on a pin point zone slicing kick.

Also pretty ordinary winning the ball in the middle when we are off the boil but I'd be backing Conca, Vlastuin and Miles to make some inroads in this department next year.

I'd be pretty happy with one of Pickett, Laverde, Weller or Ahern with our first pick for a touch of pace. Not sure which one I prefer yet though. Draft combine will be interesting.
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That's a no brainer. Laverde, the others are too short and don't have the aerial strength and reach!
 
bigstyletiger said:
Just one more Deledio and I'd be pretty happy Dr Tigris. One on the half back flank and one on the half forward flank. When we are playing poorly we are just so stagnant coming out of the back line with not enough players capable of creating some havoc by breaking the lines or pulling the trigger on a pin point zone slicing kick.

Also pretty ordinary winning the ball in the middle when we are off the boil but I'd be backing Conca, Vlastuin and Miles to make some inroads in this department next year.

I'd be pretty happy with one of Pickett, Laverde, Weller or Ahern with our first pick for a touch of pace. Not sure which one I prefer yet though. Draft combine will be interesting.
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Yeah, I reckon our reliance on Lids is a bit too much. On the other hand he is a super player. I do want a running player with good skills. Your list looks pretty good to me given what I know (i.e. what I have read). I don't expect a Lids. I do expect someone solid and quality.

I read an analysis of drafting in the US and their conclusion was in your first pick or two just go low risk. After that you can play around a bit. But the success to bust rate early is such that low risk is easily the best approach. Which is what the RFC seems to be doing. Solid citizens with little risk. Then more risk later.
 

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Dr Tigris said:
Yeah, I reckon our reliance on Lids is a bit too much. On the other hand he is a super player. I do want a running player with good skills. Your list looks pretty good to me given what I know (i.e. what I have read). I don't expect a Lids. I do expect someone solid and quality.

I read an analysis of drafting in the US and their conclusion was in your first pick or two just go low risk. After that you can play around a bit. But the success to bust rate early is such that low risk is easily the best approach. Which is what the RFC seems to be doing. Solid citizens with little risk. Then more risk later.
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Where was the analysis published?

I think, considering where we have been for the last 30 years and where we have finished on the ladder for the last few years, low risk with our first is the best policy.
 
bigstyletiger said:
Does anyone remember the pillars of recruiting the club came out and spoke about a few years ago. I googled it and found a quote where Dimma summarised it as good kicks and good character. From memory it was

- good kick
- good character
- competitive
- and I think contested ball winning ability may have been in there

At any rate I thought it might put our discussion re speed into perspective. I don't believe Dimma doesn't rate speed (i think from his discussion about the importance of having Deledio in the side that was clear) I just think he rates having the above four pillars as being more important.
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I remember that. It's good judgment... get players who excel at the 4 basics:

1. Neutral ball: strong contested ability (win ball)
2. Team in possession: they're good kicks (disposal)
3. Opposition in possession: they're competitive as hell (force neutral, or win back ball)
and...
4. Off-field: they're great characters, take direction well, and inspire those around them to work hard

Everything else is secondary to the above fundamentals.

Speed is useful, but is also secondary to the ability to 1. win the contested ball and and usually 2. have good kicks to share the ball around to the player with speed.
A good mark is useful, but is also secondary to a good kick, who is capable of making it an easier mark.
A good tackler is useful, but it also secondary to having that competitive beast nature and desire/hunger for the contest, which usually results in a full range of defensive acts

And just quietly, I think a good handballer is almost equal to a good kick. It serves the same purpose as a kick; increases ball speed, retains possession. But the ratio is lower, ideally 60% kicks 40% handballs, which is why I rate someone like Shane Edwards in the 'elite disposer' category 2.

You can't have every quality in every player. You need to prioritise traits. Speed is not one of those priorities.

And none of those traits amount to anything without an amazing 4. Off-field. The family focus and 'there's more to life' philosophy will hold us in good stead. We need some Luke Hodge/Joel Selwood level of rough leadership though IMO, as evident by the playing group's wishes for Trent to get rougher on everyone. Every elite group needs a combination of skilful leaders, heart leaders, and warrior leaders. Our best warriors are Maric and Morris.
 
bigstyletiger said:
Where was the analysis published?

I think, considering where we have been for the last 30 years and where we have finished on the ladder for the last few years, low risk with our first is the best policy.
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It was some article I found on the web based on US analysis. I should have kept it, but didn't. Basically it said that even in the US where they are picking 21/22 year olds drafting is difficult to get right. So the best return on early picks is sure bets. Speculative picks rarely work out. People remember them and thus say 'roll the dice'. But actually they are usually poor picks.
 
DAY ONE DRAFT COMBINE RESULTS
Standing Vertical Jump (cm)
1. Marvin Baynham 88
2. Jarrod Garlett 76
2. Nathan Drummond 76
4. Christian Petracca 74
5. Nakia Cockatoo 73
5. James Rose 73
7. Dean Gore 72
7. Nicholas Coughlan 72
7. Evan Bruinsma 72
7. Reece McKenzie 72
7. Tom Read 72

Running vertical jump (cm)
1. Evan Bruinsma 97
2. Marvin Baynham 95
3. Daniel McKenzie 94
4. Billy Gowers 93
5. Nathan Drummond 90
6. Nakia Cockatoo 89
7. Matthew Uebergang 87
7. Mitch McGovern 87
7. James Rose 87
7. Matthew Hammelmann 87

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-10-01/us-prospect-smashes-combine-record?utm_medium=RSS
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Bit unfair to have more fully developed guys from the US in the actual results.

THE_GUN Cockatoo might want to stop performing so well ;)

disappointed Weller not doing tests
 

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Nerflardio2424 said:
He's missed too much footy this year, a bit like blake acres from last year
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That doesn't bother me. If good enough I would still pick him like Lever. I didn't see him play so I don't know if he is good enough for me as.

I have seen old vision of Lever, I have seen no vision of Cockatoo, that's the difference for me ATM.

He would need to be better than Acres to attract our first pick IMO in terms of talent and capability.
 
Calcium Man said:
Bit unfair to have more fully developed guys from the US in the actual results.

THE_GUN Cockatoo might want to stop performing so well ;)

disappointed Weller not doing tests
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He is really starting to piss me off, I have had him on my Radar for nearly 2 years along with Patracca
Patracca went from mid 1st rounder to #1 pick and i was hoping Cockatoo would be a 3rd rounder but now would be happy to take him with 2nd rounder
who knows the way he is performing maybe will end up top 20.

Im Actually happy Weller isnt testing, Hope he and Ahern are Available at #11/#12
theflea said:
Snap. Would it be a reach to pick Nakia at pick 11?
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I think it would but who knows, I would actually love the club to trade #11 to GWS for #20 & #23
Jack Steele & Nakia Cockatoo would be very happy with
Infamy said:
I think so
In the Combine coverage they were saying that Nakia's form means he is almost certain to get picked up in the main draft, but nothing to say he'd be a top pick
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If he last until our 2nd i would be over the moon & If we ended up getting him for our 3rd - I will Kiss Francis Jacksons 84115's
Mr Magic said:
That doesn't bother me. If good enough I would still pick him like Lever. I didn't see him play so I don't know if he is good enough for me as.

I have seen old vision of Lever, I have seen no vision of Cockatoo, that's the difference for me ATM.

He would need to be better than Acres to attract our first pick IMO in terms of talent and capability.
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I Rate Blake Acres very highly and think he will be a very very good player for the saints - They got a Bargain there
But in comparison to Acres ............... I really cant pick probably lean towards Cockatoo 51%-49%
Mr Magic said:
I am a bit worried he might get picked after our first and before our second. What can you do beside get other picks through trades?

He might be only worth a 2nd rounder anyway ATM if that, I do not know enough to even make a guesstimate anyway.
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Trade a player out , Grigg,Chaplin,Foley,Dea,Batchelor,Grimes to get another pick in the 2nd round or upgrade our 3rd/4th to a 2nd rounder
 
THE_GUN said:
I think it would but who knows, I would actually love the club to trade #11 to GWS for #20 & #23
Jack Steele & Nakia Cockatoo would be very happy with


Trade a player out , Grigg,Chaplin,Foley,Dea,Batchelor,Grimes to get another pick in the 2nd round or upgrade our 3rd/4th to a 2nd rounder
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I think you're overrating Steele. Nice player but good chance to be there at our third I reckon. I would hesitate to downgrade our first, given Weller or Ahern are a step up on what you'd get at 20.

Another pick in the top 40 would be great. I'd trade any of those you mention, except Grimey.
 

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Petracca ran a 3.0 20m sprint. Menadue ran a 2.88 and Pickett a 2.87. 198cm American Marvin Baynham ran 2.81 and broke the vertical jump record too.
 
tigs2010 said:
He is a bit Dangerfield-esque. I saw someone compare him to Dusty but he doesn't possess Dusty's skills.
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You mean he hits targets and doesn't commit turnovers.
 
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