List Mgmt. Rookie Draft: Welcome - Jack Sinclair, Ahmed Saad, Brenton Payne & Adam Schneider

[aussierulesrules]

In regards to Payne's testing, he did spend a lot of the preseason battling a couple of niggling injuries, which may be reason behind his poor testing.

I was wondering whether there might be something behind the fact that his testing really didn't reflect the descriptions of him.

 

[Mat Mann]

Jack Steven
Jack Billings
Jack Newnes
Jack Lonie
Jack Sinclair

We're starting to give the Demons a run for their money in the competition for the most Jacks.

As long as we don't jack off we should be fine I think

 

[#1_pigeonracer]

As long as we don't jack off we should be fine I think

One poster did get close but instead got jacked off when reece did not quite make it through to the rookie

 

[Rors]

As long as we don't jack off we should be fine I think

One poster did get close but instead got jacked off when reece did not quite make it through to the rookie

Shame Jack Hiscox went to Sydney.... Would have been fitting for these comments

 

[sammm]

Excellent post!

Could you elaborate on the highlighted bit please? Is this your opinion or do you have mail about it?

I think it's just a rumor. Which someone has then made it into a fact.

 

[SaintLex]

Gonna be very crowded under Roo's wings next year...

Seriously, Roo would be an excellent full-time forward line coach post retiring. Unlikely he'll choose to coach though, which is a damn shame for us.

 

[Rissoles]

I coached a junior footy team that consisted of Jack Billings, Jack Sinclair, Luke McDonald, Hugh Beasley and, later, Jay Kennedy-Harris. Has anyone heard of a junior community football team that had 5 players drafted for the AFL?
Don't worry about Jack Sinclair. He has grown up with Billings and McDonald. He knows what is required to reach the elite level. I always rated him No 3 behind Billings and McDonald.
Jack Billings will be rapt that his close mate is with him and they will thrive together.

 

[12Chill]

Shame Jack Hiscox went to Sydney.... Would have been fitting for these comments

"What about Jack Noone"
"Jack who?"
"Jack Noone"
"There's no other Jack?"
"Yes there is..."
"Who?"
"Jack Noone"
"Jack WHO?"
"Jack Noone"
"Jack who? Jack SOMEONE? WHO IS IT?"
"Jack NO ONE"
"F***************************CKING HELL!!!"

 

[ike2112]

I think this kid has a real chance of making it especially if Roo takes him under his wing.

The way people talk on here, Nick Riewoldt does more coaching than 3 entire AFL staffs.

Nick himself needs constant monitoring and reinforcement of his own kicking motion. I sure as hell don't want him coaching others.
The best players often make the worst coaches, as they have talent that is just not possible to pass on and often will struggle how to articulate what, to them, comes naturally.
Mentorship is what those seniors can provide. Training habits. Dos and donts. Knowledge of opposition, tactics, nuances of playing venues such as prevailing wind direction and how firm the turf normally is.
They wont really have anything directly to do with a mediocre player becoming a 100 gamer.

Plus I'd want Roo focusing his mentoring on McCartin to make sure he makes it, and maybe Spencer White. Lets focus on the making sure our potential gun players become gun players. Anyone who succeeds off the bottom 20% of the list, which is what Payne and Sinclair are (actually the bottom 5% in their case), is a bonus.

 

[TheJackal]

The way people talk on here, Nick Riewoldt does more coaching than 3 entire AFL staffs.

Nick himself needs constant monitoring and reinforcement of his own kicking motion. I sure as hell don't want him coaching others.
The best players often make the worst coaches, as they have talent that is just not possible to pass on and often will struggle how to articulate what, to them, comes naturally.
Mentorship is what those seniors can provide. Training habits. Dos and donts. Knowledge of opposition, tactics, nuances of playing venues such as prevailing wind direction and how firm the turf normally is.
They wont really have anything directly to do with a mediocre player becoming a 100 gamer.

Plus I'd want Roo focusing his mentoring on McCartin to make sure he makes it, and maybe Spencer White. Lets focus on the making sure our potential gun players become gun players. Anyone who succeeds off the bottom 20% of the list, which is what Payne and Sinclair are (actually the bottom 5% in their case), is a bonus.

To clarify, I don't think anyone suggests that Roo should take someone under their wing to iron out flaws in their kicking (or similar), we have Gilbee to do that.

Roo taking a forward under his wing would relate to his mentoring role off the field, training habits and the likes as you suggested. I actually see McCartin as a very different player to Roo, I see Paddy crashing packs and making his presence known, which is not a Rooey type role - I actually see Payne potentially playing a more similar role to that of Roo, but obviously not saying he could reach the same heights.

Either way, for all of Nicks achievements on the field, his most important role over the next couple of years is to mentor the next wave of tall forwards. Whether it be White, Lee, McCartin, Payne, Goddard or Bruce.

As for rookies being on the bottom of the list in terms of importance, I respectfully disagree. Whether it's pick one, McCartin, or rookie pick 37, Payne, they have the same resources, same chances and start from scratch as a Saints player. McCartin nailed it when he alluded to the fact that pick one means nothing once you hit an AFL list.

 

[Kilroy]

If Bruce plays forward and/or Fisher or Delaney go down for any length of time then it's either back to Midgetville with Simpkin, the unproven with Lee, the unsuited with Roberton or Dempster or 'in the deep end' with Hughy Goddard.

Not ideal IMO.

Like you, I don't wish to be ungrateful, but I reckon you're on the money here, Uncle.
If we had been able to delist Simpkin without a payout, and managed to keep pick 60, I guess it might have been a different story.
Don't think we're aiming for Midgetsville though, more like Swingersville - Bruce, Lee, Goddard, Payne?
There seems to be a pattern emerging here and in the long run it may just prove very useful.
Any chance Goddard and Payne are still growing?

 

[Smoke_Me_AKipper]

Like you, I don't wish to be ungrateful, but I reckon you're on the money here, Uncle.
If we had been able to delist Simpkin without a payout, and managed to keep pick 60, I guess it might have been a different story.
Don't think we're aiming for Midgetsville though, more like Swingersville - Bruce, Lee, Goddard, Payne?
There seems to be a pattern emerging here and in the long run it may just prove very useful.
Any chance Payne is still growing?

I think Frost would have been a good pickup to provide cover in this area. We still need another key defender. Next year is about mids but maybe also a state league key defender? Think there will be a clear out of some players as well as maybe 1 or 2 retirements that might force us to take a KPD as insurance / cover.....

 

[Periphery]

Like you, I don't wish to be ungrateful, but I reckon you're on the money here, Uncle.
If we had been able to delist Simpkin without a payout, and managed to keep pick 60, I guess it might have been a different story.
Don't think we're aiming for Midgetsville though, more like Swingersville - Bruce, Lee, Goddard, Payne?
There seems to be a pattern emerging here and in the long run it may just prove very useful.
Any chance Goddard and Payne are still growing?

Why does Goddard need to grow? He's already 196cm.

 

[Rissoles]

To clarify, I don't think anyone suggests that Roo should take someone under their wing to iron out flaws in their kicking (or similar), we have Gilbee to do that.

Roo taking a forward under his wing would relate to his mentoring role off the field, training habits and the likes as you suggested. I actually see McCartin as a very different player to Roo, I see Paddy crashing packs and making his presence known, which is not a Rooey type role - I actually see Payne potentially playing a more similar role to that of Roo, but obviously not saying he could reach the same heights.

Either way, for all of Nicks achievements on the field, his most important role over the next couple of years is to mentor the next wave of tall forwards. Whether it be White, Lee, McCartin, Payne, Goddard or Bruce.

As for rookies being on the bottom of the list in terms of importance, I respectfully disagree. Whether it's pick one, McCartin, or rookie pick 37, Payne, they have the same resources, same chances and start from scratch as a Saints player. McCartin nailed it when he alluded to the fact that pick one means nothing once you hit an AFL list.

Actually, don't think McCartin is a Jono Brown clone - he is not. He has far more smarts than that. I would assess him as an amalgam of a Roo and a Jarryd Roughead. Not a crasher of packs - more a dominent member in a pack and a helluva bashing negator of foward exits when it comes to it.
Still, he'll take time, just as Roo did.

 

[Barrels]

I think Frost would have been a good pickup to provide cover in this area. We still need another key defender. Next year is about mids but maybe also a state league key defender? Think there will be a clear out of some players as well as maybe 1 or 2 retirements that might force us to take a KPD as insurance / cover.....

I was hugely keen on McLaren, but also Michael Hartley... Finally over the shoulder issues that cost him his Collingfilth career.

 

[Kilroy]

I think Frost would have been a good pickup to provide cover in this area. We still need another key defender. Next year is about mids but maybe also a state league key defender? Think there will be a clear out of some players as well as maybe 1 or 2 retirements that might force us to take a KPD as insurance / cover.....

Think the recruiters would agree with you there. We almost succeeded in getting him.
Agree with your argument too that it might be better to get tall defenders who’ve already done their apprenticeships elsewhere.

Why does Goddard need to grow? He's already 196cm.

Don’t worry, we’re gonna love him just how he is.
An extra centimetre or two just might help him outreach his opponents when the ‘Land of the Giants’ becomes a reality in a few years.

 

[ike2112]

I don't think we can underestimate the power of Saad from a culture perspective upon the kids.

We live in an age where last year's pick 1 just dumped his club, and where this year's expected pick 1 told recruiters he'd leave after his initial contract finished, come what may. More and more players are acting like they're free agents, and getting away with it. We're in an era where a three year contract is effectively a two year one, because clubs have to expect that the player will leave for greener pastures in their final year, so trade them with a year to go, just to get some payoff.

In powerful contrast, St Kilda holds a futurefest in which 19 kids say the words, "I'm COMMITTED to a Saints future...". We are trying to create a sense of loyalty, commitment that is entirely alien to anywhere else in the AFL right now. And it's not enough for us to draft premiership-level talent - we gotta keep them.

The St Kilda Football Club's commitment to Saad, in the midst of all his trials these last two years, speaks powerfully to those 19 kids. It tells them, "If you stay loyal to the Saints, they stay loyal to you." Every single one of those kids will hear Saad singing the praises of the club. That kind of narrative could be the difference between a good player leaving or staying.

I agree. I like that we are reinforcing the age-old AFL culture of loyalty.

However, I do wonder if we need to pay attention to the changing landscape. Personally I feel it is a sign of the times that players (and many clubs) now treat the league as far more open in terms of player movement. Cam Delaney was clearly one of the best players in the rookie draft, Geelong decided to hell with any unwritten rules - if someone's available we're picking them. This isn't 1976, and players don't all play for a single club.

Rather than go against the tide, part of me wonders if the prudent thing to do is get ahead of the pack and embrace the new world of players and clubs having no loyalty whatsoever! Chop and change, cut and deal...

 

[t_94]

Actually, don't think McCartin is a Jono Brown clone - he is not. He has far more smarts than that. I would assess him as an amalgam of a Roo and a Jarryd Roughead. Not a crasher of packs - more a dominent member in a pack and a helluva bashing negator of foward exits when it comes to it.
Still, he'll take time, just as Roo did.

I think of him as pretty similar to Brendan fevola but a good bloke version

 

[Rissoles]

I agree. I like that we are reinforcing the age-old AFL culture of loyalty.

However, I do wonder if we need to pay attention to the changing landscape. Personally I feel it is a sign of the times that players (and many clubs) now treat the league as far more open in terms of player movement. Cam Delaney was clearly one of the best players in the rookie draft, Geelong decided to hell with any unwritten rules - if someone's available we're picking them. This isn't 1976, and players don't all play for a single club.

Rather than go against the tide, part of me wonders if the prudent thing to do is get ahead of the pack and embrace the new world of players and clubs having no loyalty whatsoever! Chop and change, cut and deal...

I agree that AFL recruiting is a changing landscape and we require our Club to be at the forefront. I do say that anyone in the national draft or rookie draft cannot be said as clearly better than one or the other. Only time will tell. Our Club has clearly advised its members what its plans are for the coming five years.

Aggressively go for maximum draft picks in 2013-2015 and then poach players through the free agency.

I. for one, think this is a very prudent strategy.

 

[ike2112]

TBH i was a bit Meh! about us either redrafting or not redrafting Saad. He's 2nd yr blues left me a little nonplussed about him.
But now i actually think its not a bad idea at all by the club. With such a young list he fits that good mid age bracket we lack, and has a body with a few preseasons under his belt to help balance out the influx of so many new kids.

The benefit of being in that mid-age, is having 6 years of experience.

He came to the game late, then had to sit it out for a year and a bit - he doesn't have that level of experience. He is basically in his 3rd year. Jimmy Webster for example, who we all still think of as a kid, has more experience than him.

 

[Rissoles]

I think of him as pretty similar to Brendan fevola but a good bloke version

Nick Riewoldt: 193 cm, Jarryd Roughead: 193 cm, Paddy McCartin: 193 cm.

 

[Mindtraveller]

I agree. I like that we are reinforcing the age-old AFL culture of loyalty.

However, I do wonder if we need to pay attention to the changing landscape. Personally I feel it is a sign of the times that players (and many clubs) now treat the league as far more open in terms of player movement. Cam Delaney was clearly one of the best players in the rookie draft, Geelong decided to hell with any unwritten rules - if someone's available we're picking them. This isn't 1976, and players don't all play for a single club.

Rather than go against the tide, part of me wonders if the prudent thing to do is get ahead of the pack and embrace the new world of players and clubs having no loyalty whatsoever! Chop and change, cut and deal...

This is the reason we couldn't rookie list Gilbert. I would say the rule still exists but norf were being greedy waiting till the 3rd round.

I would say same would of happened with Saad

 

[ike2112]

Roo taking a forward under his wing would relate to his mentoring role off the field, training habits and the likes as you suggested. I actually see McCartin as a very different player to Roo, I see Paddy crashing packs and making his presence known, which is not a Rooey type role - I actually see Payne potentially playing a more similar role to that of Roo, but obviously not saying he could reach the same heights.

Mentorship is a 1-to-1 act. He might well be able to do that with a couple of players, but its not the norm.
Take Lenny and Dunstan as an example. As they trot out onto the ground for practice and do warm-ups, Lenny is next to Dunstan. "How'd you get on with what we talked about yesterday morning?" "Hows your aunt doing, she out of hospital?" That sort of close-quarters senior figure in life role is a person-to-person situation. You can't do it with a small group.
Playing style actually matters only a little. Same position is important, as they gain similar perspectives and have to learn the same things, understand the tactics and the same opposition strengths/weaknesses.

As for rookies being on the bottom of the list in terms of importance, I respectfully disagree. Whether it's pick one, McCartin, or rookie pick 37, Payne, they have the same resources, same chances and start from scratch as a Saints player. McCartin nailed it when he alluded to the fact that pick one means nothing once you hit an AFL list.

Not in terms of importance. I'd say the bottom in terms of importance are the walking dead like Siposs and Simpkin who, barring a miracle, have no AFL future. And Schneider to an extent, as his role is more as a backup and mentor, both of which are helpful but conceivably the team could survive without.
But those youngsters taken in the rookie draft are the lowest-regarded players, who so far have achieved nothing in their AFL career and have everything to prove. You could also however say the pressure is less for them, as they are the ones people think were least likely to succeed. So to fail is to achieve what was expected, and to make it onto a list and play even 20 games would be to exceed expectations.
McCartin was/is right, in that pick 1 means nothing when you hit an AFL list. Cos you have achieved nothing in the AFL. On paper, Beau Maister is a better AFL player than Paddy McCartin. Now obviously thats not the case in reality, but until McCartin plays a game and takes some marks, busts some packs and breaks some fools, he has nothing on the board. He could wreck his knee next month then again in October 2015 and his career becomes nothing. Or he could become a league legend.
The draft is a watershed moment, and what matters most starts now - how his career goes now he has an AFL club, and thats the same for everyone. In that respect, McCartin was saying that pick 1 means nothing, he's a lowly rookie just like the other rookies, and has everything to prove just like the other rookies (regardless of which draft they came from and which position it was at).

My point though, is that given as a club we don't have infinite resources, and given almost our entire list is in development mode, I would want our development coaches to work with our highest-potential players as a priority. Then cascade down their attentions to those least likely to make it or with lowest perceived ceiling of ability.
That is the unpopular decision of a coach, and one that is horrible to make, but whilst the project player come good is often the best feeling for a coach, you have to be pragmatic and focus attention on the players who will matter more. You never know, these 2 young lads might both suddenly explode when they get AFL-level training behind them. I've seen it happen many times, when putting someone into a new environment and upping their work brings out ability in them that even they didn't realise they were capable of. That's the hope with those guys, but lets not start slotting them in as starters in our 2018 lineup.

 

[ike2112]

This is the reason we couldn't rookie list Gilbert. I would say the rule still exists but norf were being greedy waiting till the 3rd round.

I would say same would of happened with Saad

They were taking him in 2nd - Geelong picked him right before North were due to.

Agree on Saad; I saw media suggesting Pies were happy that pick 26 was good value for the risk, and I'm sure we all saw rumours that Carlton were interested and they picked at 24.

 

[ike2112]

I agree that AFL recruiting is a changing landscape and we require our Club to be at the forefront. I do say that anyone in the national draft or rookie draft cannot be said as clearly better than one or the other. Only time will tell. Our Club has clearly advised its members what its plans are for the coming five years.

Aggressively go for maximum draft picks in 2013-2015 and then poach players through the free agency.

I. for one, think this is a very prudent strategy.

In general I'd agree on both points. But with Cam Delaney as the example in both...

I state he was clearly one of the best players, as he has AFL minutes on the board already, and has looked decent. 12 months ago clubs wanted to trade for him. Even this year clubs considered trading for him. The Rookie draft pool consists of 1) the group of kids with the lowest expectations, or have other flags such as character issues that make them a risk, 2) Other entries that are overlooked state-leaguers or genuine wild cards like Amos Frank or the baseball player the Eagles just drafted, 3) delisted AFL vets at varying points in their careers.
Normally the category 3s from above are people with virtually no game experience, still a lot of development to do, or are guys clearly in their final go-round with little value other than to their existing club (see Schneider, Adam). Delaney only has 8 or so (?) games experience, but he is righly rated. And he's a mature body, ready to play and develop whilst being on the ground. Given the position he plays is also one that is highly-sought, I believe his value was higher than most other players in the rookie draft pool, certainly he has more about him than any state-league KPD.

On the second point, yes go heavy on draft 2013-2015 (Pelchen's plan said 2013-2016) and then grab whats out there. But given we snapped up the chance at Longer, and Luke Delaney... and others on this thread and another thread are pointing out how bare our KPD options are, us selecting Cameron Delaney would not have been a bad choice. I don't regret our selections in the first couple rounds of a development selection our staff must have liked, and then Saad potentially needed to be taken at 19 to fend off other clubs. But I would also not have minded us taking McKernan also.
There is a great deal of merit in finding role players along the way, whilst you draft gun kids then hopefully recruit elite talent in FA.