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List Mgmt. 2015 Draft Thread - Pre-Season & Rookie Draft Friday 11:00am AEDT

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Calcium Man said:
Yes because Lennon and CEllis were such safe options. Especially when you consider the "solid citizens" like Dunstan and Weller went after our pick. Who would you take who was a risk over the safe guys like BEllis and Vlastuin, what about Martin in 09, who with his off field behaviour was risk. Vickery taking a tall very safe option over sidebottom and Ziebull.

Just because we get kids who have great characters doesn't mean we are not taking risks and its an absolute bullshit and lazy comment to make.
Click to expand...

Wow poor little petal, someone got out of the wrong side of bed this morning (or perhaps you're just not getting enough calcium). My point is that our first picks since 2010 have been mostly one paced blue collar good character types. Certainly Conca, B Ellis and Vlaustin fall under that category - Lennon I admit is different and until we see more of Ellis I'll reserve judgement. Not they have been bad, far from it, although Conca does stink to high heaven. But there has been a bit of a pattern here, a sameness (which again is not the same as saying they are all crap, which you seem to be inferring that I did, which of course I haven't). It's just that we now might have the opportunity to select some true x-factor for a change with Ah Chee (which for someone that loves boy scouts as much as you seem to should be well pleased about, as he is also apparently of 'good character' too). The prospect is tantalising as apart from Shane Edwards I think we are seriously missing X-factor.

It is interesting you bring up the example of Martin our last bad boy first round pick and incidentally the last A-grader we've recruited. But not sure if I'd give Jackson too much credit for selecting a player that was lock top five picks for most, but yes he did it but geez that was quite a long while ago and I wonder if he'd do it now? And before you get your little knickers in a twist again, yes you are right even players with 'good characters' does involve some risk, as no player is guaranteed to make it, but it's still a question of degree of risk. For what it's worth I think good character should be the very last consideration though, let's just say I'd take a team of Wayne Careys if it got us a premiership (and believe me no-one dislikes Carey more than I do). Whatever, can't wait for draft to be over and done with, and I hope we get a gun. Hopefully at least we can agree on that.
 
Tygrys said:
Or in other words one dimensional one paced vanilla types. If he is the most talented player left in the draft come our turn then for God sake let's take him. That's what you should be doing with a first rounder I would have thought? Picking the kind of player that will help us leap-frog the opposition and not merely just keep pace with them. No doubt if Jackson had been in charge of drafting at Hawthorn in 2007 he wouldn't have picked Rioli with pick 14, he would have just gone with another solid citizen type (and you're right watch the Hawks swoop on this kid if he is still available come their pick). Personally the only thing that would make me hesitate in picking him is if he made it very clear he wants to go home in the end of his two year contract. If not then do it.

Unlike Conca who was a ridiculous reach at the time and has proven to be a mediocre plodder, no-one (at least among the members and supporters) will be overly critical of Jackson if he picks the most talented available kid and it's a bust. Don't mind getting Oliver or anyone else if he is the absolute best available, but not simply because he is the 'safest' pick for an extremely risk adverse and conservative recruiting manager. And certainly not because he feels he needs to deliver the most ready to go player to help a desperate Hardwick try to prolong his coaching career beyond 2016.
Click to expand...

This 2013 article explains why I don't think we'll take Ah Chee

"In a nutshell, the Tigers stopped gambling on players' upside and put greater emphasis on consistency of performance."
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...tunes-at-punt-rd/story-fni5f9jb-1226782710641

Lets see what happens draft night if he is still available at our pick.
 

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Whilst i would love to have richmond select a Callum Ah Chee with our selection, I know deep down that we wont and the likely players that would be in our sights are

Oliver,Gresham,Clarke,Burton (if we think his injury issue's are over) But not too concerned as im sure all will be solid Citizens in our team
Im actually more interested in who we will get with later selections and rookie picks this year
 
Tygrys said:
My point is that our first picks since 2010 have been mostly one paced blue collar good character types. Certainly Conca, B Ellis and Vlaustin fall under that category - Lennon I admit is different and until we see more of Ellis I'll reserve judgement. Not they have been bad, far from it, although Conca does stink to high heaven. But there has been a bit of a pattern here, a sameness (which again is not the same as saying they are all crap, which you seem to be inferring that I did, which of course I haven't).
Click to expand...

I think people forget that as a juinor Conca showed the capability of both being able to play on the inside and the outside.

The argument used to be Conca v Heppell, yet Heppell is as one paced and as 'vanilla' as they came.

People often forget how good Conca was before he tore his hmammy off the bone against Carlton in the EF. I remember round 2 against the Saints where he basically won us the game off his own boot and was BOG by the length of the Flemington straight.

Then there was his game versus Hawthorn this year. A few VFL games after being injured for the second time in the season and against the best team in the comp and first game looked like he hadn'tissed a beat. Then injured himself the next week versus Adelaide and was a sub versua Norf in the EF.

You also forget the circumstances since the Conca draft. That year we finished second bottom yet found ourselves with pick 6, in a compromised draft. The previous remember many players went to GC. Eg Josh Toy.

Same with Ellis (finished 12th had pick 14) and then Vlastuin (finished 12th and had pick 9). All drafts were compromised due to GWS' entry into the comp.

I think the fact that we have drafted 'vanilla' types has been the sole reason why we have started to move up the ladder. We have done so under Dimma in three ways.

1. Maintaining star talent from previous drafts (Cotchin, Deledio, Rance, Riewoldt, Martin).
2. Opposition recruitment (Chaplain, Maric, Grigg, Houli etc)
3. Success of out first round draft picks.

Take Melbourne who in 09 after a tanking episode found themselves just below us on the ladder with the first 2 picks (Trengove and Scully). Whilst the two teams may not have been the exact image of the other at that point in time, mirror the success of Melbourne from that point (little to none) in conjuction with the success of their first round picks (Scully gone. Trengrove injured, Cook gone, Taggart gone, Toumpas gone. In fact Hogan and Viney [mini draft and father son respectively] the Dees have failed). The evidence surely aupports the drafting approach the RFC has adopted.

Tygrys said:
It's just that we now might have the opportunity to select some true x-factor for a change with Ah Chee (which for someone that loves boy scouts as much as you seem to should be well pleased about, as he is also apparently of 'good character' too). The prospect is tantalising as apart from Shane Edwards I think we are seriously missing X-factor.
Click to expand...

Obviously it depends on ones definition of x-factor. But certainly I believe that Lennon had it before he was drafted (still does) in spades.

I personally see x-factor as the ability to create something out of nothing which I believe Lennon's highlights over the past few years have. Many were comparing Lennon to Stevie J around draft time. Not sure there is a greater x-factor comparison than thar.

Whilst I tend to agree with you, we have brought in Yarran, Butler, McBean, Drummond, Menadue, Lennon, Short and Castagna all of which jave shown x-factor ability allbeit at various levels of competition.

Tygrys said:
It is interesting you bring up the example of Martin our last bad boy first round pick and incidentally the last A-grader we've recruited. But not sure if I'd give Jackson too much credit for selecting a player that was lock top five picks for most, but yes he did it but geez that was quite a long while ago and I wonder if he'd do it now? And before you get your little knickers in a twist again, yes you are right even players with 'good characters' does involve some risk, as no player is guaranteed to make it, but it's still a question of degree of risk. For what it's worth I think good character should be the very last consideration though, let's just say I'd take a team of Wayne Careys if it got us a premiership (and believe me no-one dislikes Carey more than I do). Whatever, can't wait for draft to be over and done with, and I hope we get a gun. Hopefully at least we can agree on that.
Click to expand...

Martin was never a top 3 lock, some may argue top 5 lock. Most saw the top 5 as Scully, Butcher, Trengrove, Motabito, Cunnington with Martin and Rohan just outsode of that. It was only when the media got hold of RFCs interest in Martin that he became a top 3 'lock'.

Good citizens has ensure that we have had young players that have infused our culture - or at leaat so I believe. You hear so much about our culture from guys like Hunt and Miles to the potential draftees who train with us during the season. I have heard both Josh Dunkley and Townsend speak on the quality of the RFCs culture which has no doubt been influenced byour firat round picks.

You say character should be the last consideration in drafting? I disagree almoat completely. I would say talent is number one and character number two. Talent without character breeds laziness and issues. We have heard of the issues high picks like Lucas Cook and Daniel Gorringe who had noundless talent but were lazy and have since been delisted.We know of the issues Bennell and Dayle Gartlett have had. Again, boundless talents with character issues. Bennell has now anpther chance at Freo, but Gartlett's prolific fall is known (and incredibly sad).
 
RockJobster0312 said:
I think people forget that as a juinor Conca showed the capability of both being able to play on the inside and the outside.

The argument used to be Conca v Heppell, yet Heppell is as one paced and as 'vanilla' as they came.

People often forget how good Conca was before he tore his hmammy off the bone against Carlton in the EF. I remember round 2 against the Saints where he basically won us the game off his own boot and was BOG by the length of the Flemington straight.

Then there was his game versus Hawthorn this year. A few VFL games after being injured for the second time in the season and against the best team in the comp and first game looked like he hadn'tissed a beat. Then injured himself the next week versus Adelaide and was a sub versua Norf in the EF.

You also forget the circumstances since the Conca draft. That year we finished second bottom yet found ourselves with pick 6, in a compromised draft. The previous remember many players went to GC. Eg Josh Toy.

Same with Ellis (finished 12th had pick 14) and then Vlastuin (finished 12th and had pick 9). All drafts were compromised due to GWS' entry into the comp.

I think the fact that we have drafted 'vanilla' types has been the sole reason why we have started to move up the ladder. We have done so under Dimma in three ways.

1. Maintaining star talent from previous drafts (Cotchin, Deledio, Rance, Riewoldt, Martin).
2. Opposition recruitment (Chaplain, Maric, Grigg, Houli etc)
3. Success of out first round draft picks.

Take Melbourne who in 09 after a tanking episode found themselves just below us on the ladder with the first 2 picks (Trengove and Scully). Whilst the two teams may not have been the exact image of the other at that point in time, mirror the success of Melbourne from that point (little to none) in conjuction with the success of their first round picks (Scully gone. Trengrove injured, Cook gone, Taggart gone, Toumpas gone. In fact Hogan and Viney [mini draft and father son respectively] the Dees have failed). The evidence surely aupports the drafting approach the RFC has adopted.



Obviously it depends on ones definition of x-factor. But certainly I believe that Lennon had it before he was drafted (still does) in spades.

I personally see x-factor as the ability to create something out of nothing which I believe Lennon's highlights over the past few years have. Many were comparing Lennon to Stevie J around draft time. Not sure there is a greater x-factor comparison than thar.

Whilst I tend to agree with you, we have brought in Yarran, Butler, McBean, Drummond, Menadue, Lennon, Short and Castagna all of which jave shown x-factor ability allbeit at various levels of competition.



Martin was never a top 3 lock, some may argue top 5 lock. Most saw the top 5 as Scully, Butcher, Trengrove, Motabito, Cunnington with Martin and Rohan just outsode of that. It was only when the media got hold of RFCs interest in Martin that he became a top 3 'lock'.

Good citizens has ensure that we have had young players that have infused our culture - or at leaat so I believe. You hear so much about our culture from guys like Hunt and Miles to the potential draftees who train with us during the season. I have heard both Josh Dunkley and Townsend speak on the quality of the RFCs culture which has no doubt been influenced byour firat round picks.

You say character should be the last consideration in drafting? I disagree almoat completely. I would say talent is number one and character number two. Talent without character breeds laziness and issues. We have heard of the issues high picks like Lucas Cook and Daniel Gorringe who had noundless talent but were lazy and have since been delisted.We know of the issues Bennell and Dayle Gartlett have had. Again, boundless talents with character issues. Bennell has now anpther chance at Freo, but Gartlett's prolific fall is known (and incredibly sad).
Click to expand...
Long post but in summary there are a few points I think you got horribly wrong .
Martin was always top 3.
Conca was recognised by most as being 15-20 bracket .
Our rise and success of picks has more to do with leadership , which IMO stems back to recruiting blokes like Miller and even Cousins, than drafting . Our drafting still remains ordinary IMO .
Melbournes real demise started the day they started axing the leaders they had like McDonald etc .
 
Tygrys said:
Wow poor little petal, someone got out of the wrong side of bed this morning (or perhaps you're just not getting enough calcium). My point is that our first picks since 2010 have been mostly one paced blue collar good character types. Certainly Conca, B Ellis and Vlaustin fall under that category - Lennon I admit is different and until we see more of Ellis I'll reserve judgement. Not they have been bad, far from it, although Conca does stink to high heaven. But there has been a bit of a pattern here, a sameness (which again is not the same as saying they are all crap, which you seem to be inferring that I did, which of course I haven't). It's just that we now might have the opportunity to select some true x-factor for a change with Ah Chee (which for someone that loves boy scouts as much as you seem to should be well pleased about, as he is also apparently of 'good character' too). The prospect is tantalising as apart from Shane Edwards I think we are seriously missing X-factor.

It is interesting you bring up the example of Martin our last bad boy first round pick and incidentally the last A-grader we've recruited. But not sure if I'd give Jackson too much credit for selecting a player that was lock top five picks for most, but yes he did it but geez that was quite a long while ago and I wonder if he'd do it now? And before you get your little knickers in a twist again, yes you are right even players with 'good characters' does involve some risk, as no player is guaranteed to make it, but it's still a question of degree of risk. For what it's worth I think good character should be the very last consideration though, let's just say I'd take a team of Wayne Careys if it got us a premiership (and believe me no-one dislikes Carey more than I do). Whatever, can't wait for draft to be over and done with, and I hope we get a gun. Hopefully at least we can agree on that.
Click to expand...

You can't say we don't draft x-factor without looking at who else we could have drafted. Who was the x-factor we could have signed from 10-12 drafts? Maybe Menzel would have been the only player who would have not been a reach.

There is absolutely no sameness.

Conca - Inside mid type, with very good spacial awareness
BEllis - Hard running outside mid
Vlastuin - mature HBF, with good decision making, very good overhead and will move into the midfield as a physical inside mid eventually.
Lennon - Mercurial high half forward, with great marking ability and the potential to move into the midfield.
CEllis - Probably the most similar to Conca but with a beautiful left foot, that had one of the best retention rates going into forward 50.

If you believe we have skipped x-factor then I have a rock to sell you that keeps tigers away.
 
UpTheGuts said:
Ah Chee piece. Couldn't be disappointed if we got him:

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2015-11-09/going-places-rocket-man-callum-ah-chee-out-to-prove-his-hanger-is-no-fluke?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=RSS+feed:+AFL+Latest+News
Click to expand...


Yep, well spoken and seems pretty grounded with a hint of a chip - which is not a bad thing at all for an X - factor player.

It's just a guess but I think we'll pick someone else and Ah Chee will go to a club with at least 2 picks in the top 20.
 

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UpTheGuts said:
We were right into Motlop, if you believe reports.
I'm not equating an indigenous player with another (lazy thing), but we clearly see the need for some spark outside the packs.

Next year a mids draft, so I'm ok if we grab a bit of X factor this time
Click to expand...
Been saying for years we need outside speed. Yarran helps that, Ah Chee would too.

Think im like most on here in thinking its one of Oliver or Ah Chee. Both different type players but both fill a need. Cant wait for draft day now. Looks like we should still be able to get a quality kid at 12 or 15 or whatever it turns out to be
 
"The Roar Is Back" said:
Long post but in summary there are a few points I think you got horribly wrong .
Martin was always top 3.
Conca was recognised by most as being 15-20 bracket .
Our rise and success of picks has more to do with leadership , which IMO stems back to recruiting blokes like Miller and even Cousins, than drafting . Our drafting still remains ordinary IMO .
Melbournes real demise started the day they started axing the leaders they had like McDonald etc .
Click to expand...

We have obviously have different recollections regarding Martin. It is what it is.

I do remember Conca being a 15-20 pick. I remember he had to e flown last minute to the Gold Coast because we had decided to take him at 6. My point re Conca was more to do with why we drafted him as opposed to where. Though I admit the path of conversation may have led to that conclusion. He was still at the time (again my recollection) seen as a solid citizen and a vanilla player. Jack of all trades master of none.

Re leadership you make a good point which I cannot help but agree with. I do not believe in both examples however that it could be the ONLY reason for success/ failure. Though I will admit a large part of it. I would add leadership to my list of why we have been able to improve during compromised years.
 

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UpTheGuts said:
I just hold in my mind that we offered 12 for Yarran & 20, suggesting we might reach
Click to expand...
I'm thinking either Gresham or risking it on Burton.Changes abit now but still if Oliver is gone i can see us doing it as a "reach"
 
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