Collingwood Supporters the Pies worst enemy.

[No SPIN]

Okay:

• Grundy
  
• Aish
• Broomhead
• Frost
• Howe
• Oxley
• De Goey
• Greenwood

So you reckon all those guys are not trying - Ok then

 

[MarkT2]

I have to agree with your observation about all the players wanting to leave. I think we were all depressed to see Heritier go. Chris Dawes just couldnt see a spot in our team under buckley. I think Ben kennedy needed some love and support too. I supposed we could add Heath to that list, even though he didnt want to go. He said he wanted to leave after he left so I think that is close enough to an indication that he wanted to leave because of buckley. Then we shouldnt forget his brother too Rhyce. He left the club. Then there is Peter Moore of course. I was devastated at the time. Des Tuddenham. I think I had his number on my back when I was a kid. The list is amazingly long. It's a poor reflection on Buckley.....

And Beams & Thomas and Seedsman...
The point isn't even the names thought it is in the motivation and reasoning.
The result is a bare list. How many rising start nominations have we had in the last 3-4 years? what is our first draft pick this year?

 

[TradeDraft]

So you reckon all those guys are not trying - Ok then

Well I guess you work at the Club so you know Everything

 

[MarkT2]

We won 10 in a row in 2013, were 8-3 in 2104, 8-3 in 2015, and playing so competitively that we were unlucky to lose to Haw, Freo last year, and the NAB cup was great.
So now that things are bad you want to re-write history and say thing have been bad for 3 years when that is clearly not the case.

It is absurd in the extreme to suggest that we supporters have suffered from complacency in the last 3 years.

Except I have been saying it for 3 years...
And you've been arguing about it and supporting the club unconditionally for that time.
The more things change....

 

[Markfs]

And Beams & Thomas and Seedsman...
The point isn't even the names thought it is in the motivation and reasoning.
The result is a bare list. How many rising start nominations have we had in the last 3-4 years? what is our first draft pick this year?

yes... i forgot those guys. Beams definitely left because of buckley. I think the extra cash that brisbane splashed on him and the father stuff was a bit of a snow job. As for Thomas, I dont think bucks wanted to do a simple kick to kick with him. That's all it would have taken five minutes before each game and Daisy would have taken a pay cut to stay at the Pies....

I think broomie got a rising start and did brody get one? Its true. We never get them. Buckley has been shocking at the draft....the club should never have put him in charge of recruiting. He just doesnt have a feel for it.

 

[No SPIN]

Except I have been saying it for 3 years...
And you've been arguing about it and supporting the club unconditionally for that time.
The more things change....

Really - you have been protesting for 3 years - even through those good times I mentioned - so I suppose you'll supply the quotes?

Everyone is an expert in hindsight!

 

[DNine]

Well I see Players out there that are not Even Motivated to even Try

Is that Buckley's fault? Should they bring the motivation with them, or does Buckley need to motivate them.

Reason I am being so specific, is I have an annoyance with how people blame things in a vague way. Lets dissect it, so we have a better understanding. Lets try to be neutral, and not get carried away with ourselves.

People say Game Plan is the problem. What is the perceived game plan? Does a game plan get executed better with better players? Of course. What is a game plan that we should have, given the level of our players? How would you differ from the coach? Have a go, come up with some smart analysis. Seriously, we all bag the media, for coming up with rubbish, but it is rubbish because it lack passion, and bias. None of the posters on this board type anywhere near enough sense to be a journo. Lets try to be better, and instead of getting all sooky, lets keep our heads.

 

[Greening Magic]

Thought it was an interesting OP, but nothing remotely resembling a decent discussion stands up on this board for long these days.
The game plan is an interesting one. We probably don't have the cattle to execute it at the moment but what are the alternatives.
Freo are finding out that just trying to lock down a game won't work in this day and age. Can't just try and turn a game into stoppages and eek out a win.
We must stick to the game plan and hope to get some players back from injury and then assess it's worth and tweak it accordingly.
We've already used 35 players, no game plan will withstand that. Simple.
Looking forward to getting Varcoe, Williams and Adams back but the loss of Swan, Elliott, and the non development of Ramsey and Scharenberg (due to injury) hurts us this year and probably next.
Hope Eddie and Bucks stay the course but footy doesn't often work that way and the shrill brigade usually get their way.
If we do get a new coach I think he has a fair bit to work with next year .......... barring injury.

 

[Alex_Y]

Some people can blame the players if they want. But if the players aren't playing for Buckley, and they never have, than it's time he goes.

First, we were told that it was Malthouse's Premiership team didn't want to play for Buckley, and many of them strongly disliked Bucks.
So he gets rid of most of them, and creates his own team - And they still don't play for him.
Which means that if his message doesn't get to the players, and they won't play for him, therefore is no reason to keep him on.

Bring in a coach, who will get the players, playing for him.

 

[TradeDraft]

Some people can blame the players if they want. But if the players aren't playing for Buckley, and they never have, than it's time he goes.

First we were told that it was Malthouse's Premiership team didn't want to play for Buckley, and many of them strongly disliked Bucks.
So he gets rid of most of them, and creates his own time - And they still don't play for him.
Which means that if his message doesn't get to the players, and they won't play for him, therefore is no reason to keep him on.

Bring in a coach, who will get the players, playing for him.

Well what I seen On-Field. IF we don't start well. There need to get back into game is not there

 

[Schraderbrau]

Forget the game plan rubbish. If you haven't got a side that can execute the game plan put in front of them, you can have the best game plan in the world. We as supporters have NFI as to how if Buckley went to a successful side, how his game plan would be executed. We haven't got players playing good football, so the game plan talk is rubbish.

This paragraph makes no sense. The coaches' job is to have his players execute the gameplan. I suppose some leeway can be given for a season or two, but this is his fifth season. Either the gameplan is fundamentally flawed or he has failed in teaching it to his players. Either way, it's a failure. Blaming the players is a cop out and embarrassing, everybody knows the buck stops with the coach.

 

[Alex_Y]

Forget the game plan rubbish. If you haven't got a side that can execute the game plan put in front of them, you can have the best game plan in the world. We as supporters have NFI as to how if Buckley went to a successful side, how his game plan would be executed. We haven't got players playing good football, so the game plan talk is rubbish.

It's Bucks job as coach, to get them to execute it properly. If he can't, than someone else needs to come in that will.
First it was Malthouse's Premiership team didn't want to play for him. Bucks said they were stuck in the past, and got rid of most of them.
So he creates his own team, and the message still doesn't get through to his players, after now, the 5th year of him coaching the club.
It's his job as coach, to get the team to execute the plan, and get his players to play for him.
If they are not, and his players are still not playing for him for now the 5th season, than it's time for him to move on, and for us to get a coach, who's message will get through to the players.

 

[magpiewarrior]

I know that I could never be a senior coach, but I do know that I can see 2 problems with our side. 1) Our team are not playing with any visible game plan or strategy (whether that is a lack of ability or the game plan is seriously flawed, I can't say) If our players aren't good enough to execute the game plan successfully then we need a new game plan that they can produce successfully. Despite what is said on this board (and in other football forums) in 2002, 2003 & 2010 we didn't have the most skillful side in the comp. but we did have game plans that were designed around the abilities that our players did have)
2) We don't initiate play we react to our opponents play. Worse still we tend to be stationary until the opp make their move and thus we look incredibly slow. In short we react poorly, and this predominately is in the midfield leading to us getting smashed in the clearances and paying dearly for turnovers.

 

[jaxter600]

I know that I could never be a senior coach, but I do know that I can see 2 problems with our side. 1) Our team are not playing with any visible game plan or strategy (whether that is a lack of ability or the game plan is seriously flawed, I can't say) If our players aren't good enough to execute the game plan successfully then we need a new game plan that they can produce successfully. Despite what is said on this board (and in other football forums) in 2002, 2003 & 2010 we didn't have the most skillful side in the comp. but we did have game plans that were designed around the abilities that our players did have)
2) We don't initiate play we react to our opponents play. Worse still we tend to be stationary until the opp make their move and thus we look incredibly slow. In short we react poorly, and this predominately is in the midfield leading to us getting smashed in the clearances and paying dearly for turnovers.

with regard to this have heard it said repeatedly. but didn't we recruit for a specific game plan? Given that our former coach then took the same plan elsewhere where it was not found to be sufficient I am unsure that we developed the game plan that suited our players or recruited players who suited the game plan. This is probably because i am not a part of the inner sanctum as it were.

 

[DNine]

Thought it was an interesting OP, but nothing remotely resembling a decent discussion stands up on this board for long these days.
The game plan is an interesting one. We probably don't have the cattle to execute it at the moment but what are the alternatives.
Freo are finding out that just trying to lock down a game won't work in this day and age. Can't just try and turn a game into stoppages and eek out a win.
We must stick to the game plan and hope to get some players back from injury and then assess it's worth and tweak it accordingly.
We've already used 35 players, no game plan will withstand that. Simple.
Looking forward to getting Varcoe, Williams and Adams back but the loss of Swan, Elliott, and the non development of Ramsey and Scharenberg (due to injury) hurts us this year and probably next.
Hope Eddie and Bucks stay the course but footy doesn't often work that way and the shrill brigade usually get their way.
If we do get a new coach I think he has a fair bit to work with next year .......... barring injury.

What is the game plan? The journo's are talking about how we get caught in the middle of zone defence and man on man. Zone defence to a armchair expert will only work if you play against sides that pop the ball up, or don't hit their target, but if you do hit your target, the defence will not get near the ball, and that is what we are finding. Players not discipline enough to be in the exact spot at the exact time to make it a tight zone.

I would try going back to basics if I was Bucks. Man on man in defence, work hard both ways. Lead long and all day. Hit targets, tackle ferociously. Run and carry and take the game on when it is possible, but have a plan to dispose of the ball if you get caught while trying.

I seen Treloar receive a handpass on the weekend, and he had someone right on him, and he tried to take it on. Then I see DeGoey free to run, and be shepherded for and he handpasses straight away to a guy closer to hot than he was.

None of this is in any game plan. Like Bucks said, we have to work harder.

We are up against it because we have 15 players on the sidelines. That would be difficult if we had a swap of coaches with the Hawks. Clarkson would be just as bad in Buckley's spot.

The negative supporters know that. The negative supporters want blood, and they will whinge until they get their way. I was one, with Mick Malthouse. I knew he was an egotistical smartass of a bloke, and at that stage, he had coached 10 years without a flag. He had his favourites, and that drove me nuts. Chad Rintoul, Chad Morrison could do no wrong. Despite getting under 5 possessions weekly, they would be named again and again. When the wheels were falling off older players, like Lockyer, OBree, Licuria and the like, Malthouse overlooked the poor performances, and kept picking them.

My memory of the event, when Malthouse was delivered the plan, he done things out of spite. It was like that meeting changed him. He stopped playing these players, and he thought that what would happen, is what is happening to us now. He was wrong. The young players exceeded everyone's expectations, and took us to a premiership. And people to this day credit the flag to Malthouse. It was like penicillin, it was actually an accident that MM started coaching like he did to win the flag.

Put simply, the guys that sat on the fence line in the 2010 Grand Final, were the players that played every game in 2010. In fact, these players took the injuries and bumps and bashes for the most part of that season, and then came the youth.

These young players kept exceeding the expectations, and were unstoppable throughout 2011. But what lost us that Grand Final was both Malthouse showcasing his departure on the Footy Show, really put a bad taste in the clubs mouth, and injuries to a couple of key players. Poor decisions by MM seem to derail the side as well. Almost on purpose.

So I have been on both sides of the argument with two coaches. I could not stand the site of MM at the end, and I am not convinced Bucks is the issue on this occasion.

Does Buckley need better support under him? The footy show I just watched suggests that they all have limited experience. Maybe that is telling.

 

[DNine]

It's Bucks job as coach, to get them to execute it properly. If he can't, than someone else needs to come in that will.
First it was Malthouse's Premiership team didn't want to play for him. Bucks said they were stuck in the past, and got rid of most of them.
So he creates his own team, and the message still doesn't get through to his players, after now, the 5th year of him coaching the club.
It's his job as coach, to get the team to execute the plan, and get his players to play for him.
If they are not, and his players are still not playing for him for now the 5th season, than it's time for him to move on, and for us to get a coach, who's message will get through to the players.

How would any coach go with the injuries we have had over the past three years, seriously. I believe that we have had the worst go at it. No one at the club will say it, but it has been awful. Last year was the best of the three years, but we have usually had more than most other sides. You can't win with that many injuries. Does the fitness staff need to boot? Does the doctors? I do understand correctly, clubs are made up of 60 different people including players who are all responsible for a percentage for our success. Buckley has a good percentage, but it is no where near the majority.

 

[DNine]

yes... i forgot those guys. Beams definitely left because of buckley. I think the extra cash that brisbane splashed on him and the father stuff was a bit of a snow job. As for Thomas, I dont think bucks wanted to do a simple kick to kick with him. That's all it would have taken five minutes before each game and Daisy would have taken a pay cut to stay at the Pies....

I think broomie got a rising start and did brody get one? Its true. We never get them. Buckley has been shocking at the draft....the club should never have put him in charge of recruiting. He just doesnt have a feel for it.

All of those guesses are unsubstantiated accounts of what actually happened. No fan has any idea of the real reasons things happened like they did. Thomas was not a loss, he has hardly had a good game. Langdon has done better and he was a pick in the 60's. Beams was a loss, but I love what we got. DeGoey, Greenwood and Crisp covers Beams. He left and gave you an excuse for it. If he is a lying prick, we are better off without him. Oh, and he has been injured for most of the time. At this current time, we are ahead.

 

[Alex_Y]

How would any coach go with the injuries we have had over the past three years, seriously. I believe that we have had the worst go at it. No one at the club will say it, but it has been awful. Last year was the best of the three years, but we have usually had more than most other sides. You can't win with that many injuries. Does the fitness staff need to boot? Does the doctors? I do understand correctly, clubs are made up of 60 different people including players who are all responsible for a percentage for our success. Buckley has a good percentage, but it is no where near the majority.

There's always an excuse with Buckley. A lot of teams have a spate of injuries and still go well.
In Collingwood's case, Cloke and Brown for example are fine, but have been dropped because of form.
Even the players that are playing, are still clearly playing well below their capable level. They are just not playing for their coach.

I must say, in my 22 years of watching football, I don't think I've seen a team have worse balls skills than this Carlton team.
It's not VFL standard, it is below. Yet we lost to them.
Why? Because despite us having a better team, and skill level, they were playing for their coach. Bolton's message is getting through to them.
While their skill level is 1/10, there hardness, tackling and commitment is 10/10 and is very impressive. And Bolton's game plan is also getting through to them. That tells me that while one coach's message and game plan is getting through to his team (Bolton), the other coach's message and game plan clearly is not (Buckley). And quite frankly, it hasn't since Buckley started. So what make you think, it will now? He's had 5 years, and we've only getting worse every year.

Noone, and that's including you, can honestly say with a straight face, that Buckley is going to be a Premiership coach with us. Therefore we are just wasting time, down in the mud, the longer we keep him.

 

[Markfs]

All of those guesses are unsubstantiated accounts of what actually happened. No fan has any idea of the real reasons things happened like they did. Thomas was not a loss, he has hardly had a good game. Langdon has done better and he was a pick in the 60's. Beams was a loss, but I love what we got. DeGoey, Greenwood and Crisp covers Beams. He left and gave you an excuse for it. If he is a lying prick, we are better off without him. Oh, and he has been injured for most of the time. At this current time, we are ahead.

all we have are unsubstantiated guesses and rumour....like most of us here, i've slept with several players to get more information but they never tell you the truth in the morning....

 

[MarkT2]

yes... i forgot those guys. Beams definitely left because of buckley. I think the extra cash that brisbane splashed on him and the father stuff was a bit of a snow job. As for Thomas, I dont think bucks wanted to do a simple kick to kick with him. That's all it would have taken five minutes before each game and Daisy would have taken a pay cut to stay at the Pies....

I think broomie got a rising start and did brody get one? Its true. We never get them. Buckley has been shocking at the draft....the club should never have put him in charge of recruiting. He just doesnt have a feel for it.

Fair enough. You keep deliberately changing the argument and we'll be fine. If we click our heels and say side by side 3 times it will all be over and we'll be back in top 4.

 

[sirlothie]

Supporters mean jack shit, they are good for making money out of but they don't have any impact on the team performance. We are all just a pair of eyeballs and a mouth.

 

[Markfs]

Fair enough. You keep deliberately changing the argument and we'll be fine. If we click our heels and say side by side 3 times it will all be over and we'll be back in top 4.

as my old sergeant used to tell me...."i know nothing"...

 

[TheSierBear]

Didn't get passed the first sentence of the OP.
Poster used to (sook) dig the boots into MM at every opportunity.
For whatever reason the poster is a Buckley fan and has been very supportive, couldn't say a bad word.
It is very odd that this poster is so biased towards Buckley, to the point where his opinion on either of Buckley and MM is way beyond ridiculous. Is it just me or is do we have more than our fair-share of personalities? Seriously? How the OP can't stop and think how ridiculous position is, and how it is at odds with his expectations of MM. It is just crazy stuff!!!

 

[DNine]

There's always an excuse with Buckley. A lot of teams have a spate of injuries and still go well.
In Collingwood's case, Cloke and Brown for example are fine, but have been dropped because of form.

Brown has a hamstring injury and Cloke has a back injury, so that is technically incorrect. However, yes you are right, they were out of form, not injured.

But lets look at it. This was my best side prior to preseason;

B: Williams, Brown, Langdon
HB: Scharenberg, Reid, Pendlebury
C: Sidebottom, Greenwood, Crisp
HF: DeGoey, Cloke, Varcoe
F: Elliott, Moore, Swan

R: Grundy, Adams, Treloar
I: Aish, Broomhead, Howe, Maynard
E: Fasolo, Sinclair, Ramsay, Goldsack, Blair

So 13 out of our top 27 players. I thought that young kids had gone past the likes of Toovey, Goldsack and Blair. I felt those three players were not giving us anywhere near the level we required. You take that many out of ANY SIDE, and you have a rabble. Reid and Broomhead we injured on the field, and had limited effect after it, so 15 of 27.

I know that in AFL circles, they don't like making excuses, but these reasons are real, and something that even if Buckley woke up tomorrow as Jock McHale, he could not turn the problem around until these injured players play. And I have faith that you put those players back into the side, we DEFINITELY would of beated Carlton. We also would of beaten Saints and Melbourne I believe. We would of been 5 and 2 with only losses to Swans and West Coast.

Bad form to Grundy, Greenwood and Crisp prior to the weekend, and the heat that is put on young kids like DeGoey and Treloar, would not be intense like it is if the red players were in.

Even the players that are playing, are still clearly playing well below their capable level. They are just not playing for their coach.

Why would players seem so honest in their assessments about them loving Buckley. Yes they said that about Malthouse too, but I felt that they seemed not genuine in comparison to these guys, where half of them actually came to the club because of him.

I must say, in my 22 years of watching football, I don't think I've seen a team have worse balls skills than this Carlton team.
It's not VFL standard, it is below. Yet we lost to them.

They weren't poorly skilled in the past three weeks like prior. They actually sit 6th in effective disposal for the year, but 17th in Clangers. But besides that, you can't just say this side is this. You have to say, this side was this in their last game. In the game against us, they were cleaner.

Why? Because despite us having a better team, and skill level, they were playing for their coach. Bolton's message is getting through to them.

How about that they are miles older than us on the day. We were average of 22, they were 25. Younger players are more inconsistent.

While their skill level is 1/10, there hardness, tackling and commitment is 10/10 and is very impressive. And Bolton's game plan is also getting through to them. That tells me that while one coach's message and game plan is getting through to his team (Bolton), the other coach's message and game plan clearly is not (Buckley).

Your just making things up to suite your agenda. How about using unbias stats, rather than what you rate things to be. Bolton wasn't getting through to them prior to 3 weeks ago. Now he has broken through, but for how long? It is not plan to me that Buckley isn't getting through. It is obvious to me that they are not good enough to execute what ever Buckley is trying to tell them to do.

And quite frankly, it hasn't since Buckley started. So what make you think, it will now? He's had 5 years, and we've only getting worse every year.

He made finals in 2012 and 2013. So quite frankly, I don't believe your memory of events.

Noone, and that's including you, can honestly say with a straight face, that Buckley is going to be a Premiership coach with us. Therefore we are just wasting time, down in the mud, the longer we keep him.

Is that right is it. I am pretty sure that I said that the line will rise up whether we had Buckley or not.

 

[DNine]

Didn't get passed the first sentence of the OP.
Poster used to (sook) dig the boots into MM at every opportunity.
For whatever reason the poster is a Buckley fan and has been very supportive, couldn't say a bad word.
It is very odd that this poster is so biased towards Buckley, to the point where his opinion on either of Buckley and MM is way beyond ridiculous. Is it just me or is do we have more than our fair-share of personalities? Seriously? How the OP can't stop and think how ridiculous position is, and how it is at odds with his expectations of MM. It is just crazy stuff!!!

My expectations of Malthouse was not being an absolute up himself smartass all the time. I enjoy hearing Buckley speak about the issues we face. I listen, I don't turn off, and say, no excuse, you MUST WIN. If I was a player, MM would of rubbed me up the wrong way. If you can't follow a guy that was probably the best player I have ever seen play AFL, then you are worth crap as an AFL player. Everyone knows what he stands for. Hard work, and more hard work.